FINALLY CONFIRMED!! Ducati Welcome Lorenzo

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

Ah yes, the old, he's the most popular rider so deserves everything justification. Carmelo brokered that deal, without that Rossi doesn't have a choice but to stay with Ducati or retire. Given Rossi's fragility of threatening to quit every time .... doesnt go his way, he would have retired. ...., he had already quit on Ducati the entire second year. So no, he wouldn't have won .... without Carmelo Clause-super sport agent, because Rossi would have .... off rather than to stick it out with Ducati.

Voodu, I don't think you quite appreciate Yamaha racing didn’t want Rossi back. Fact. The deal was brokered by Dorna CEO and Yamaha marketing (in MotoGP, one in the same). Without the strong arm of Carmelo, no deal. Yamaha racing were done with him.

Rossi was already defeated. There's no way he has the mental strength to stick it out at Ducati. Zero wins.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

michaelm · Apr 28, 2016

moto vudu said:
Also, since Rossi's return to Yamaha it appears M1 development has rapidly improved.

Agree with this, and a perhaps understandable reason for some of Rossi's antipathy to Jorge ie his input improved the bike so that Jorge could beat him as well as others.

I think Valentino would have been a fair chance at PI 2015 on Iannone's bike, although this would go somewhat against the narrative of some (not you obviously) that MM was tanking and could have won by 10 seconds.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

michaelm said:
Agree with this, and a perhaps understandable reason for some of Rossi's antipathy to Jorge ie his input improved the bike so that Jorge could beat him as well as others.

I think Valentino would have been a fair chance at PI 2015 on Iannone's bike, although this would go somewhat against the narrative of some (not you obviously) that MM was tanking and could have won by 10 seconds.

In the same way we can put to rest the notion of Rossi "mind games" and call it what it is, being an '.......', in the same way we can henceforth forevermore call Rossi the ultimate whiner after his epic meltdown 'Debacle of 2015', in the same way we can crown him the ultimate dangerous rider for his deliberate crashing out a fellow competitor, we can in the same way after his stint at Ducati put to rest for ETERNITY this utter absolute MYTH that he is some great developer. The Yamaha's improvement had .... all to do with Rossi. It's ......... Just like the bopper narrative that Lorenzo has Rossi to thank for the great M1. It's .........

The next words out of anybody's mouth when this mythical notion that Rossi can develop a bike is uttered should be: the Ducati Rossi developed was .....

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

Seriously, how is it possible for Valentino Rossi to pervert logic in this way? It's fascinating and mind-boggling. Only when speaking of Rossi, who took a machine that won 3 of the last 5 races, and podiumed the day before it was presented to him, took that machine and with absolutely every resource and ear under the sun 'developed' that machine into an unmitigated disaster, and the conclusion is: Rossi’s a great developer? Holy ..... Only Rossi can pervert logic where people can actually consider Marquez helped Lorenzo by beating him at Phillip Island. Only Rossi can pervert logic where his 4th place victory lap at Valencia was in fact a direct result of him serving a PENALTY for an act unbecoming of a serious sportsman can be called 'a lap of honor'. Holy ...., what planet is this?

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
In the same way we can put to rest the notion of Rossi "mind games" and call it what it is, being an '.......', in the same way we can henceforth forevermore call Rossi the ultimate whiner after his epic meltdown 'Debacle of 2015', in the same way we can crown him the ultimate dangerous rider for his deliberate crashing out a fellow competitor, we can in the same way after his stint at Ducati put to rest for ETERNITY this utter absolute MYTH that he is some great developer. The Yamaha's improvement had .... all to do with Rossi. It's ......... Just like the bopper narrative that Lorenzo has Rossi to thank for the great M1. It's .........

The next words out of anybody's mouth when this mythical notion that Rossi can develop a bike is uttered should be: the Ducati Rossi developed was .....

If by "we" you're simply referring to yourself & JPS, then yes.

Rossi didn't develop the Ducati, it was .... when he got it and it continued to be .... until Ducati finally stopped pointing the finger at the riders (first Stoner then Rossi) and realized the bike needed fixing and brought in Gigi. Stoner, Rossi, _____ (insert any rider name) wasn't going to fix the Ducati. DUCATI had to fix the DUCATI.

michaelm · Apr 29, 2016

Jumkie said:
In the same way we can put to rest the notion of Rossi "mind games" and call it what it is, being an '.......', in the same way we can henceforth forevermore call Rossi the ultimate whiner after his epic meltdown 'Debacle of 2015', in the same way we can crown him the ultimate dangerous rider for his deliberate crashing out a fellow competitor, we can in the same way after his stint at Ducati put to rest for ETERNITY this utter absolute MYTH that he is some great developer. The Yamaha's improvement had .... all to do with Rossi. It's ......... Just like the bopper narrative that Lorenzo has Rossi to thank for the great M1. It's .........

The next words out of anybody's mouth when this mythical notion that Rossi can develop a bike is uttered should be: the Ducati Rossi developed was .....

A seamless gearbox to match Honda's was probably the main "development", true, and I doubt Rossi's talents extend to designing same.

That 2010 Ducati was an absolute pig, not developed by Stoner either, but rather an attempt to make a carbon fiber Ducati into a Yamaha in Rossi's absence, which couldn't be done, and couldn't be done in his presence either. The only way to win on the thing was to ride it like Casey Stoner, which also couldn't be done by any rider other than Stoner, particularly Valentino as he and Burgess freely admitted. Even Stoner was only competitive at the cost of crashing out quite frequently. It would have been interesting for me to see MM assay a pre-2010 800cc formula Ducati though.

yamfan · Apr 29, 2016

michaelm said:
A seamless gearbox to match Honda's was probably the main "development", true, and I doubt Rossi's talents extend to designing same.

That 2010 Ducati was an absolute pig, not developed by Stoner either, but rather an attempt to make a carbon fiber Ducati into a Yamaha in Rossi's absence, which couldn't be done, and couldn't be done in his presence either. The only way to win on the thing was to ride it like Casey Stoner, which also couldn't be done by any rider other than Stoner, particularly Valentino as he and Burgess freely admitted. Even Stoner was only competitive at the cost of crashing out quite frequently. It would have been interesting for me to see MM assay a pre-2010 800cc formula Ducati though.

Showed who was working hard and prepared to push hard though didn't it?
The inference by Rossi and Burgess that Casey wasn't trying enough was insulting to say the least.

Keshav · Apr 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
If by "we" you're simply referring to yourself & JPS, then yes.

Rossi didn't develop the Ducati, it was .... when he got it and it continued to be .... until Ducati finally stopped pointing the finger at the riders (first Stoner then Rossi) and realized the bike needed fixing and brought in Gigi. Stoner, Rossi, _____ (insert any rider name) wasn't going to fix the Ducati. DUCATI had to fix the DUCATI.

Not to mention Melandri who they bundled off to a shrink rather than admit how flawed was their design philosophy.

Conversely as Rossi didn't "develop" the Ducati - you also they concede he didn't "develop" the Yamaha. Right?

JPSLotus · Apr 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
If by "we" you're simply referring to yourself & JPS, then yes.

Rossi didn't develop the Ducati, it was .... when he got it and it continued to be .... until Ducati finally stopped pointing the finger at the riders (first Stoner then Rossi) and realized the bike needed fixing and brought in Gigi. Stoner, Rossi, _____ (insert any rider name) wasn't going to fix the Ducati. DUCATI had to fix the DUCATI.

Actually, let's be real, Rossi went to Ducati because firstly he wasn't getting the number 1 status he demanded at Yamaha, and secondly because he and Burgess thought Stoner was underachieving on the bike and that he wasn't doing any good with developing it. Rossi believed his own myth and hype that he could move to Ducati the way he had moved to Yamaha and just win win win. All he did was lose lose lose.

danski · Apr 29, 2016

In a design as right as the Yamaha the input of Rossi is invaluable in incrementally improving an already excellent bike, in a design as flawed as the Ducati the input is useless because the bike is fundamentally wrong. That said JB & VR must have thought it wasn't as bad as it was to say it could be fixed quickly.

Jumkie · Apr 29, 2016

The bopper mentality is exactly like religion, what is observed in reality has zero affect on them.

For four years they were sure The Ducati was responsible for riding itself to championship in 07, and there after we're convinced Stoner was the problem, not accepting the Rossi-centric finagling of the single tire supplier. They followed the lead message that Rossi himself expressed, Ducati wasn't the problem Stoner was the problem. Stoner was at the time, the most hated man in the world, similar to Lorenzo now. Burgess himself had drank the kool-aid, think easy fix. They had two years to exhibit their development genius. They took a winning bike and made it worse. Not to mention they were convinced Rossi was superior to Casey in terms of talent, so of course he would win on it. Why saying 'only Stoner could ride that bike to victory' a relevant thing to say? The bopper argument for 4 years was Rossi could ride whatever and be better on it regardless. Put two riders on a Vespa, Rossi would win. We had our opportunity to compare apples to apples in 2011.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

danski · Apr 29, 2016

Jumkie said:
The bopper mentality is exactly like religion, what is observed in reality has zero affect on them.

For four years they were sure The Ducati was responsible for riding itself to championship in 07, and there after we're convinced Stoner was the problem, not accepting the Rossi-centric finagling of the single tire supplier. They followed the lead message that Rossi himself expressed, Ducati wasn't the problem Stoner was the problem. Stoner was at the time, the most hated man in the world, similar to Lorenzo now. Burgess himself had drank the kool-aid, think easy fix. They had two years to exhibit their development genius. They took a winning bike and made it worse. Not to mention they were convinced Rossi was superior to Casey in terms of talent, so of course he would win on it. Why saying 'only Stoner could ride that bike to victory' a relevant thing to say? The bopper argument for 4 years was Rossi could ride whatever and be better on it regardless. Put two riders on a Vespa, Rossi would win. We had our opportunity to compare apples to apples in 2011.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

Too old to be a bopper man, and I didn't say Vale and Jezza were right, rather they severely underestimated the task in hand, I think Vales' book title has more relevance here than his switch to Yamaha from Honda, that he bitterly regrets it I have no doubt.

michaelm · Apr 29, 2016

Daniboy said:
In a design as right as the Yamaha the input of Rossi is invaluable in incrementally improving an already excellent bike, in a design as flawed as the Ducati the input is useless because the bike is fundamentally wrong. That said JB & VR must have thought it wasn't as bad as it was to say it could be fixed quickly.

The 2009 bike was fine when Stoner was healthy. The 2010 bike was a pig, developed in Stoner's absence during his illness with the impossible aim of developing a bike from the 2009 bike akin to a Yamaha, as they were pursuing the incumbent Yamaha factory riders since Ducati also believed that Stoner was flaky and their bike was fine, and would be better with a little tweaking from a "development" rider.

danski · Apr 29, 2016

Didn't they develop the carbon frame in that period? Another reason that they continued on the downhill slope.

michaelm · Apr 29, 2016

Daniboy said:
Didn't they develop the carbon frame in that period? Another reason that they continued on the downhill slope.

The 2009 bike was the first carbon fibre bike, which was tested during 2008. Stoner won 4 races on it when healthy, and crashed on the warm up lap after dominating practice in another. When ill, he was competitive early in races and faded late, before missing several races. Unlike on the 2010 bike, on which he had multiple random front end loses, he had no dnfs.

They made major changes to the bike for 2010, including switching from a screamer to a "big bang" engine, and changing the front/rear balance. The control tyre was also continually moving away from the one originally co-developed with Bridgestone for their bike.

JPSLotus · Apr 29, 2016

The Marlboro Man who's now Ferrari's team principal, Maurizio Arrivabene certainly had a helping hand with Stoner leaving Ducati the first time.

Remember this .... in September 2009?

"I hope Stoner has the decency to apologize to the team in Portugal," Arrivabene said. "There are many of Ducati's Borgo Panigale employees who wouldn't stay at home with a stomach ache, especially in times of economic crisis."

That's the kind of toxic .... Casey hated more than anything.

michaelm · Apr 29, 2016

JPSLotus said:
The Marlboro Man who's now Ferrari's team principal, Maurizio Arrivabene certainly had a helping hand with Stoner leaving Ducati the first time.

Remember this .... in September 2009?

That's the kind of toxic .... Casey hated more than anything.

Toxic is right. The irony of a Marlboro employee denying a health issue, and moreover being believed, was extreme.

JPSLotus · Apr 29, 2016

michaelm said:
Toxic is right. The irony of a Marlboro employee denying a health issue, and moreover being believed, was extreme.

He's a nutcase who had too much free reign because of how much money Marlboro was kicking in to Ducati. Same reason I believe he became Ferrari team principal, it was a quid pro quo to get even more Marlboro money into the F1 team.

You should see him lighting up Marlboro's in the F1 paddock all the time.

michaelm · Apr 29, 2016

JPSLotus said:
He's a nutcase who had too much free reign because of how much money Marlboro was kicking in to Ducati. Same reason I believe he became Ferrari team principal, it was a quid pro quo to get even more Marlboro money into the F1 team.

You should see him lighting up Marlboro's in the F1 paddock all the time.

Makes sense, come to think of it, shows my lack of interest in F1 these days; no other reason he would have ended up as team principal that I could ever divine.

Jumkie · Apr 29, 2016

michaelm said:
The 2009 bike was the first carbon fibre bike, which was tested during 2008. Stoner won 4 races on it when healthy, and crashed on the warm up lap after dominating practice in another. When ill, he was competitive early in races and faded late, before missing several races. Unlike on the 2010 bike, on which he had multiple random front end loses, he had no dnfs.

They made major changes to the bike for 2010, including switching from a screamer to a "big bang" engine, and changing the front/rear balance. The control tyre was also continually moving away from the one originally co-developed with Bridgestone for their bike.

Great point about the upgraded gearbox for the M1. Rossi 'developed' that quarter of a million dollar contraption in his personal motohomes.

We can only wonder what 08/09 might have looked like had Bridgestone stuck to their guns. Obviously Rossi would have quit. Not to mention the wins Stoner didn't get while ill, which I'd also say was made worse by the all around disrespect and negativity he endured partly thanks to the same reason Lorenzo and Marquez are booed today. But I don't quite understand why you keep repeating the GP10 was an absolute pig in the 'context' of Rossi's lack of success in 2011. Same bike two different riders, one won the other didn't. Apples Apples. And even that is a bit of a stretch since Casey had to deal with being blame wilst Rossi’s word was the word of god. The difference in treatment alone is enough for a positive affect on Rossi to win 3 or more races. Surely he was as good, though we know he is better, than Stoner.

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FINALLY CONFIRMED!! Ducati Welcome Lorenzo

Jumkie

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yamfan

Keshav

JPSLotus

danski

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