FINALLY CONFIRMED!! Ducati Welcome Lorenzo

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
What don't you understand about the word "location"?

SNS "Saturday NIGHT Specials. Why do you think the word NIGHT was in that acronym?

It was already known that as soon as Rossi won @ Jerez, you and JPS would be here posting tire conspiracy theories to cheapen his victory. VR out worked his rivals all weekend then out-rode them on Sunday. Hard work = victory, ... the tires. Without the ability to concentrate on managing the ridiculous amount of wheel spin happening on the straights and adapting to help prevent the tire from self-destructing he wouldn't have won. He HAD to out-ride his rivals and that's what he did. No special "Rossi-only" tires were flown in for him.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

tps7c said:
I thought you and Michael were friends? In another thread he mentioned that because of how tires are distributed, it would be next to impossible for Rossi to get a special blend in this era.

It's my privileged to count Mike as a friend. Same with Povol, who I think said what you're talking about.

I'm not saying Michelin flew in a tire Saturday night, I'm saying the tire they brought to Europe was designed for Europe, like they used to design tires during the SNS era. Really, what I'm saying is that confusing?

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

moto vudu said:
It was already known that as soon as Rossi won @ Jerez, you and JPS would be here posting tire conspiracy theories to cheapen his victory. VR out worked his rivals all weekend then out-rode them on Sunday. Hard work = victory, ... the tires. Without the ability to concentrate on managing the ridiculous amount of wheel spin happening on the straights and adapting to help prevent the tire from self-destructing he wouldn't have won. He HAD to out-ride his rivals and that's what he did. No special "Rossi-only" tires were flown in for him.

Everyone in the press room expressed surprise. Everyone in the press room was aware this was an outlier, it was obvious from their questions. It was also obvious the culprit was tires. You can sink your head in the yellow sand all you want buddy. If Jesus himself told you Michelin cooked the formula, you wouldn't believe it anyway. But your naivety is not uncommon nor surprising. This was by design way before Saturday night. Michelin's return to the sport which served the Rossi-centric Dorna island is not a coincidence.

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
Everyone in the press room expressed surprise. Everyone in the press room was aware this was an outlier, it was obvious from their questions. It was also obvious the culprit was tires. You can sink your head in the yellow sand all you want buddy. If Jesus himself told you Michelin cooked the formula, you wouldn't believe it anyway. But your naivety is not uncommon nor surprising. This was by design way before Saturday night. Michelin's return to the sport which served the Rossi-centric Dorna island is not a coincidence.

I'm not wasting my time debating this with you because I already know your agenda (along with JPS). At any point in time Rossi does well, it has nothing to do with talent, work, or skill... but some mysterious way Dorna has rigged the system for Rossi to win. If MM or JL do well, it's their talent, work, and skill.

tps7c · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
It's my privileged to count Mike as a friend. Same with Povol, who I think said what you're talking about.

I'm not saying Michelin flew in a tire Saturday night, I'm saying the tire they brought to Europe was designed for Europe, like they used to design tires during the SNS era. Really, what I'm saying is that confusing?

I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is how the tire that is designed for Europe, is much better suited for Rossi than any other rider? How can that be?

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

tps7c said:
I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is how the tire that is designed for Europe, is much better suited for Rossi than any other rider? How can that be?

Rossi hater

+

=

Anything is possible.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

moto vudu said:
I'm not wasting my time debating this with you because I already know your agenda (along with JPS). At any point in time Rossi does well, it has nothing to do with talent, work, or skill... but some mysterious way Dorna has rigged the system for Rossi to win. If MM or JL do well, it's their talent, work, and skill.

You've wasted plenty of time.

Jerez was a complete outlier from head to toe.

Rossi is good enough to win races. He was in contention to win races last year even without the attrition help by Marquez last year. I'm not disputing his capacity to win. Jerez is not one of those. You can absolutely thank Michelin for that win. And you can thank Dorna for bringing back Michelin. And you can thank Carmelo for getting him back on a Yamaha. Everything he has accomplished from his return to Yamaha is artificially enhanced because nobody else could get that kind of League brokered preferential treatment.

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
You've wasted plenty of time.

Jerez was a complete outlier from head to toe.

Rossi is good enough to win races. He was in contention to win races last year even without the attrition help by Marquez last year. I'm not disputing his capacity to win. Jerez is not one of those. You can absolutely thank Michelin for that win. And you can thank Dorna for bringing back Michelin. And you can thank Carmelo for getting him back on a Yamaha. Everything he has accomplished from his return to Yamaha is artificially enhanced because nobody else could get that kind of League brokered preferential treatment.

Last year regarding the events at the end of the season your argument was how crazy the boppers are for believing MM was toying with VR because there's no proof. Yet, you need NO PROOF to argue all day that Michelin has made special tires for the Euro circuits that suit VR better than the other riders. Rossi winning at Jerez isn't proof the tires suited him better, it's proof he managed them better. That's not the same as the tires were made for him.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

tps7c said:
I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is how the tire that is designed for Europe, is much better suited for Rossi than any other rider? How can that be?

Because Michelin have experience specifically in this regard.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

michaelm · Apr 28, 2016

moto vudu said:
Last year regarding the events at the end of the season your argument was how crazy the boppers are for believing MM was toying with VR because there's no proof. Yet, you need NO PROOF to argue all day that Michelin has made special tires for the Euro circuits that suit VR better than the other riders. Rossi winning at Jerez isn't proof the tires suited him better, it's proof he managed them better. That's not the same as the tires were made for him.

I probably don't agree with Jumkie on this, but I think you are missing his point.

Rossi won at Jerez through talent and effort, by being better in low grip conditions and better at preserving his tyres and/or riding on worn tyres, and achieving a better set-up for the conditions. Arguably that is a true test, perhaps the truest, for a rider, but if something is done to ensure all races involve low grip conditions and worn tyres then it would favour Rossi, just as waiting till it rained or watering the track before racing would favour him over JL at least, although if he won it would still be by being better in those conditions.

Jumkie, perhaps oddly from your perspective, was an initial supporter of the control tyre rule, while I have always favoured a wide range of tyres to suit a range of riders and bikes, whether by a tyre war or other means.

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

michaelm said:
I probably don't agree with Jumkie on this, but I think you are missing his point.

Rossi won at Jerez through talent and effort, by being better in low grip conditions and better at preserving his tires and/or riding on worn tyres, and achieving a better set-up for the conditions. Arguably that is a true test, perhaps the truest, for a rider, but if something is done to ensure all races involve low grip conditions and worn tyres then it would favour Rossi, just as waiting till it rained or watering the track before racing would favour him over JL at least, although if he won it would still be by being better in those conditions.

Jumkie, perhaps oddly from your perspective, was an initial supporter of the control tyre rule, while I have always favoured a wide range of tyres to suit a range of riders and bikes, whether by a tyre war or other means.

How did Michelin know for sure track temps on Sunday would be higher thus reducing overall grip levels? Wheelspin on the straights wasn't much of an issue during FP and Q1/2. If the track temps weren't high for the race, there may not have been any low grip conditions. MM said his bike was fine when the temps were lower.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

michaelm said:
Jumkie perhaps oddly was an initial supporter of the control tye rule, while I have always favoured a wide range of tyres to suit a range of riders and bikes, whether by a tyre war or other means.

Watering the track is a good analogy. Though I think Lorenzo is a better wet weather racer than he's given credit, but his recent record doesn't support it.

I was initially for a single tire supplier because I hadn't considered that would mean the general development would be disproportionately driven by Rossi’s influence. That was naivety on my part.

michaelm · Apr 28, 2016

moto vudu said:
How did Michelin know for sure track temps on Sunday would be higher thus reducing overall grip levels? Wheelspin on the straights wasn't much of an issue during FP and Q1/2.

I said I probably didn't agree.

I too think the track temperature was critical, Lorenzo would very likely have been more competitive on the same tyres in cooler conditions going by practice performances, and I tend to doubt Dorna and/or Rossi are in control of the weather/responsible for global warming etc. Having lower grip tyres in general would favour Rossi over JL in general, however.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

Moto Vudu, you keep arguing against race fixing, I'm arguing rigging, as in stacked deck, as in the house is favored.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

michaelm · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
Watering the track is a good analogy. Though I think Lorenzo is a better wet weather racer than he's given credit, but his recent record doesn't support it.

I was initially for a single tire supplier because I hadn't considered that would mean the general development would be disproportionately driven by Rossi’s influence. That was naivety on my part.

I fully realise that you favoured the control tyre for reasons of fairness/having a level playing field, while the reasons for my opposition were less fully formed but did include Ducati being prepared to start again with Michelin rather than go to a control tyre.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2016

Moto Vudu, how many wins do you think Rossi would have if he were still at Ducati? I'd venture to say zero. When the league CEO acted as his sport agent, Rossi return to Yamaha. Did Carmelo 'fix' race wins? No. Does Rossi's return to Yamaha represent rigging? Yes.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

xx CURVE xx · Apr 28, 2016

All that hate is gonna burn you up son

Cool Blue · Apr 28, 2016

It's a pity that the tire variations only have one dimension, that being the compound. If they could offer different carcass stiffness as well... Obviously this would be much more costly but I guess this was one of the potential benefits lost in moving to the single supplier.

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J4rn0 · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
...... how many wins do you think Rossi would have if he were still at Ducati? I'd venture to say zero. ...........

You venture too far as usual. Common sense tells us that Rossi could ride the Dall'Igna generation of Ducatis competitively. Why? Because, in Dovi's words, "they turn" (the understeer that only Stoner could overcome is no more there).

Where Dovi and Iannone arrived second or podiumed, maybe Valentino Rossi could have scored wins. Then of course people like you would have complained about something else because hey, when Rossi wins there must always be something wrong. And when he loses, it wasn't rigged well enough. What a cult-following logic.

moto vudu · Apr 28, 2016

Jumkie said:
Moto Vudu, how many wins do you think Rossi would have if he were still at Ducati? I'd venture to say zero. When the league CEO acted as his sport agent, Rossi return to Yamaha. Did Carmelo 'fix' race wins? No. Does Rossi's return to Yamaha represent rigging? Yes.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

I think Rossi would have at least 2-3 wins on the current Duc. The Duc's incredible top end power combined with how good Rossi is on the brakes... he'd be very hard to pass. Also much of the Duc's handling problems seem to be sorted.

Rossi return to Yamaha doesn't represent rigging, he's the most popular rider and brings with him sponsors and marketing power. You speak like there's something in the rulebook that would've prevented Rossi from returning to Yamaha and Carmelo had to issue Rossi a waiver or change the rules. The sport didn't need to be "rigged" to get Rossi back on a Yamaha. Rossi just had to go back with his tail between his legs and accept #2 status on the team.

When Rossi returned Yamaha wasted no time getting Rossi involved with the new R1 project and putting him in the commercials for the bike. The Yamaha / Rossi relationship is mutually beneficial. Also, since Rossi's return to Yamaha it appears M1 development has rapidly improved.

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