FINALLY CONFIRMED!! Ducati Welcome Lorenzo

Daniboy said:

That Rossi sought to injure Lorenzo to rescue the title is pure fantasy, his points deficit was unassailable as he had much of the season out with a broken leg. He was trying to regain his team status more likely.

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Ask Mick Doohan about an unassailable points lead ..........

At Motegi, in 2010 Rossi was way out of order at the team level (never mind his 2015 comments about riders not involved in a championship race) with his behaviour poor in terms of team harmony and requirements

If he were 'racing to regain his team status' thence it was petulant to risk injury to either his team mate who was leading the championship and a chance to with his first title, and also petulant, perhaps stupid to come into contact with a rider whilst still recovering from the leg break

There was and remains no excuse

Daniboy said:

The title battle was between Dani and Jorge , Dani was out with injury and was the only person who could have possibly caught Jorge in points. It was a war of pride between the two of them.

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Which shows that ones ego and pride developed into a petulant response

Any 'war of pride' was one sided (IMO) as Lorenzo had it all to lose and nothing to gain by fighting with Rossi.

Barbedwirebikerr said:

That is just not so. Often championships are wrapped up before the final race. In that instance; the leader has an unassailable lead.

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An unassailable lead only exists when the points available is less than the points differential between first and second

This was not the case at Motegi

Yes it was 'seemingly unassailable' but if circumstances meant that JL did not finish any of the remaining races within the points, the title could have gone elsewhere. Splitting hairs, yes but precedents exist (Doohan who was a lot of points in front when the points system was different)

Daniboy said:

Correct, I think in 2010 Lorenzo won the title in Sepang with a third place, 3 races to go .

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But he did not win it at Motegi.

Thus the championship was still live until the chequer flag at Sepang and with the championship live, anything can happen

Keshav said:

Challenged? I was genuine in requesting a reply. And I did so with respect and good humor. Wasn't asking you to defend your thoughts, but rather to see if we could disagree and still find some common ground of objective reason where we could meet in the middle. You Arrib, Curve, Austin and No are five people who I would never try to pin down in a gotcha moment.

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I nearly always respect your posts as well.

We have a difference on late season 2015, largely due to our respective biases as you say, I was going for Jorge, you were going for Valentino, in this particular season anyway.

Mostly what I really object to is the 'it's different because it is Valentino' line of argument of which I would hardly call you a leading proponent. I think it probably really was a thing that Rossi thought no-one but Jorge should be allowed to race him, and I was really annoyed at that prior to the Sepang press conference, as a Jorge fan but also as a big time Doohan fan who as you will recall had a much more dominant season in 1992 before the accident at Assen and who asked for no quarter in the 2 races he returned, and neither he nor any of his fans have ever called Rainey's 1992 title anything but completely worthy; he stayed on his bike, Mick didn't. If Rossi wants to whinge about 2015 though, while I don't recall the points system 6th and 6th on his return rather than 12th and 6th as was all he could manage on 1 leg may have won him the title, and the riders other than Rainey who beat him were mostly doing so because he was on one leg (his problem and his alone of course) rather than being intrinsically faster than Mick.

While not necessarily arguing for a physical ... kicking as Povol does I take his argument in the main, given that running a rider of the track with that rider eventually coming off his bike with a chance of injury less than zero has been justified as an understandable and perhaps even warranted response to provocation by Rossi; I can't see that physical retaliation by MM would be much different.

Gaz said:

Which shows that ones ego and pride developed into a petulant response

Any 'war of pride' was one sided (IMO) as Lorenzo had it all to lose and nothing to gain by fighting with Rossi.




An unassailable lead only exists when the points available is less than the points differential between first and second

This was not the case at Motegi

Yes it was 'seemingly unassailable' but if circumstances meant that JL did not finish any of the remaining races within the points, the title could have gone elsewhere. Splitting hairs, yes but precedents exist (Doohan who was a lot of points in front when the points system was different)



But he did not win it at Motegi.

Thus the championship was still live until the chequer flag at Sepang and with the championship live, anything can happen

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He (Lorenzo) chose to race Rossi too when he could have actually just followed him to the line, it was a case of the racer inside ! In any case Rossi took the bollocking for it. Although had he elected to stay with Yamaha they might just have called it differently.

Daniboy said:

He (Lorenzo) chose to race Rossi too when he could have actually just followed him to the line, it was a case of the racer inside ! In any case Rossi took the bollocking for it. Although had he elected to stay with Yamaha they might just have called it differently.

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Rossi could have settled for 4th at Sepang.

michaelm said:

Rossi could have settled for 4th at Sepang.

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True, it's only 3 points and 60 million forum posts less.

michaelm said:

I nearly always respect your posts as well.

We have a difference on late season 2015, largely due to our respective biases as you say, I was going for Jorge, you were going for Valentino, in this particular season anyway.

Mostly what I really object to is the 'it's different because it is Valentino' line of argument of which I would hardly call you a leading proponent. I think it probably really was a thing that Rossi thought no-one but Jorge should be allowed to race him, and I was really annoyed at that prior to the Sepang press conference, as a Jorge fan but also as a big time Doohan fan who as you will recall had a much more dominant season in 1992 before the accident at Assen and who asked for no quarter in the 2 races he returned, and neither he nor any of his fans have ever called Rainey's 1992 title anything but completely worthy; he stayed on his bike, Mick didn't. If Rossi wants to whinge about 2015 though, while I don't recall the points system 6th and 6th on his return rather than 12th and 6th as was all he could manage on 1 leg may have won him the title, and the riders other than Rainey who beat him were mostly doing so because he was on one leg (his problem and his alone of course) rather than being intrinsically faster than Mick.

While not necessarily arguing for a physical ... kicking as Povol does I take his argument in the main, given that running a rider of the track with that rider eventually coming off his bike with a chance of injury less than zero has been justified as an understandable and perhaps even warranted response to provocation by Rossi; I can't see that physical retaliation by MM would be much different.

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To be clear, my perception that Marquez's squid-like antics were not ethical racing, should not be construed as a bias in favor of Rossi, or in any way a justification for running MM off the track. Historically, I have had a general antipathy for Rossi on a personal level, that reached new heights after Laguna and the "Ambition" incidents.

Later, I thought he'd in some sense, paid his debt to society after his time in Ducati purgatory - and deserved a chance to redeem himself. Personally, I value the humanizing virtue of forgiveness over the Neanderthal doctrine of perpetual resentment. So having no particular allegiance to Lorenzo or MM, I was rooting for Rossi because I loved the idea of a fellow geezer grabbing the championship away from the young'ins.

Regarding retribution; If MM had immediately loosened a few of Rossi's teeth after being run off the track - that would have made sense. But violence as a response to mere words - is the stuff of high-schoolers and over- testeroned bar brawlers.

Depends on the words.

MM would need a stool to reach for Rossi's teeth anyway...

Keshav said:

To be clear, my perception that Marquez's squid-like antics were not ethical racing, should not be construed as a bias in favor of Rossi, or in any way a justification for running MM off the track. Historically, I have had a general antipathy for Rossi on a personal level, that reached new heights after Laguna and the "Ambition" incidents.

Later, I thought he'd in some sense, paid his debt to society after his time in Ducati purgatory - and deserved a chance to redeem himself. Personally, I value the humanizing virtue of forgiveness over the Neanderthal doctrine of perpetual resentment. So having no particular allegiance to Lorenzo or MM, I was rooting for Rossi because I loved the idea of a fellow geezer grabbing the championship away from the young'ins.

Regarding retribution; If MM had immediately loosened a few of Rossi's teeth after being run off the track - that would have made sense. But violence as a response to mere words - is the stuff of high-schoolers and over- testeroned bar brawlers.

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I was the same actually, I read some of the detailed comments he made while he was at Ducati which were surprisingly humble, as he was in 2014 when MM was totally dominant and Jorge and DP fairly totally dismayed, while he was saying which seemed genuine at the time that he was happy to be racing competitively again for its own sake, whether or not he actually won races. If I was to overcome my antipathy to psychology by internet, I might speculate about his seemingly overwhelming obsession for the 8th/10th title which he in no way required to prove anything in the first place.

We do differ not just in allegiances, however. I completely dismiss the conspiracy theory regarding PI, as I have said repeatedly he didn't ever try to block Rossi and made no hard moves that put him at risk, and any winning strategy that involves no illegality is its own justification imo. I also think the bike was better when HRC went back to the 2014 chassis, but was still not the same as the 2014 bike particularly in comparison with the 2015 rather than 2014 Yamahas, and his late season resurgence was imo significantly down to him riding more sensibly/in a more restrained fashion as much as anything else. Sure he may have been messing with Rossi at Sepang, but not by withholding dominant/race winning pace imo, and if Dani was the one in competition with Rossi for the title MM would have actually been expected and perhaps even required by his team to ride as he did. I can understand a 23 year old guy who perhaps self-identifies as someone who knows no fear not wanting to back down to Rossi, and being raced legally for position (rather skilfully and cleanly I thought watching live) is not the worse thing that has ever been done to a rider, including by Rossi himself.

Has "The Worst" been back yet?

#22 said:

Has "The Worst" been back yet?

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The Worst is yet to come.

Touche.

Lorenzo comments on his new team mate, crash goes into meltdown.

Jorge Lorenzo insists he would have been happy to work with either Andrea Dovizioso or Andrea Iannone at Ducati next season.

Earlier this week the Italian factory announced that Dovizioso had been retained to partner new signing Lorenzo, with Iannone later confirmed as moving to Suzuki.

“Lot of [rider] movement during the last three or four days. I think it's good to have Dovizioso as a team-mate. For me he has always been a very clever guy, very logical and I hear that he is very good in testing the bike,” said Lorenzo, the reigning world champion and 2016 points leader.

“But obviously for me it would also be okay if Iannone stayed on the team. He is very fast and his riding is very similar, so for me both them were good team-mates, but was the decision of Ducati. I will be more conscious of it in seven-eight months. Now I have Rossi as team-mate. We are at Yamaha and a long way to finish this championship.”

Lorenzo was speaking on the eve of the Italian Grand Prix weekend, an event he has won four times in the last five years and been on the podium every year since 2009.

“There are tracks where you can find more you limits, or take advantage of your strong points. Mugello is one of these. It's probably my favourite track. Where I get the best results in the last six-seven years,” he said.

“The surface, layout of the track is also my favourites. Not just results. The corners, chicane and braking points make this track more helpful for me.”

Lorenzo's second victory of the season last time at Le Mans put him five points clear of Honda's Marc Marquez at the head of the world championship standings.
Read more at MotoGP News - MotoGP Italy: Lorenzo: Dovizioso 'good team-mate'

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What's the bet someone makes a claim on here that Lorenzo just wanted the team mate less likely to challenge him?

I think this could hurt Jorge's move to Ducati a lot, Ramon has been the genius of that side of the garage in all the success's, now he's decided to stay and work with Maverick which imo will make Jorge's chances of winning a lot harder. I wonder if he already decided that the Ducati is still a lost cause.
MotoGP News - MotoGP: Jorge Lorenzo?s crew chief to stay at Yamaha, with Vinales

Daniboy said:

I think this could hurt Jorge's move to Ducati a lot, Ramon has been the genius of that side of the garage in all the success's, now he's decided to stay and work with Maverick which imo will make Jorge's chances of winning a lot harder. I wonder if he already decided that the Ducati is still a lost cause.
MotoGP News - MotoGP: Jorge Lorenzo?s crew chief to stay at Yamaha, with Vinales

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All depends, as sometimes a change is as good as a holiday and whilst Forcada has a lot to offer, that does not mean that he is irreplaceable (ask Rossi who has not gone backwards in results after replacing JB)

There were also stories doing the rounds that JL and Forcada had a fallout of sorts as well so there is likely more to the story (although the usual suspects in some places put it all down to personality, not you btw)

Personally, I sometimes wonder if moving with your entire team to a new challenge is the best option as whilst it takes the familiarity of language, communication and faces, does it bring new ideas?

IMO, I have no doubt that JL will struggle but expect him to do better than many expect (or should that be hope?)

Gaz said:

All depends, as sometimes a change is as good as a holiday and whilst Forcada has a lot to offer, that does not mean that he is irreplaceable (ask Rossi who has not gone backwards in results after replacing JB)

There were also stories doing the rounds that JL and Forcada had a fallout of sorts as well so there is likely more to the story (although the usual suspects in some places put it all down to personality, not you btw)

Personally, I sometimes wonder if moving with your entire team to a new challenge is the best option as whilst it takes the familiarity of language, communication and faces, does it bring new ideas?

IMO, I have no doubt that JL will struggle but expect him to do better than many expect (or should that be hope?)

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I suppose he will inherit Iannone's suspension tech, which could be advantageous in having a certain familiarity with the Duke, whether Lorenzo's riding style will be accommodated is the big question.