I do agree, but I'd have to extend this argument to others riders as well. How much of development can be credited to Marc or Jorge? I honestly have no idea, but I suspect they also don;t offer much more than general rider inputs.
i'd also like to say that I feel this is vastly different than "bike setup" for race weekends. I feel the riders have a way more significant role in that department.
Look, at the present time I'm probably the biggest Rossi fan on this forum, lol. But even I have to admit that Rossi intentionally ran Marc wide, knowing full well what the consequences could be. He's a pro motorcycle rider and had to have know what his actions could cause. However, I still don't feel, after watching the videos, that he kicked him off the bike. Again, before anyone jumps on me here - even if he didn't kick Marc, he still knew what was most likely going to happen by running him wide.
Totally agree and one of the reason why the talk of 'rider X can/cannot develop a bike' is a bit of fantasy as we simply do not know
A rider will get off a bike and try to describe a feeling or what they perceived to be an action of the bike to a team of technicians who then have to translate that by referencing data.
The development is done way elsewhere although having the riders at race speed is far better for development than is a test rider 2 seconds slower and so forth
Bike setup is about personal preference to achieve a race long setting and will vary track to track, day to day due to ambient conditions
Development is about identifying and improving the base from which setup begins
Some.
Development is borne from the need to improve the base of the bike and thus, it needs to be done at race pace (or as close as possible)
JL will be able to produce results in the data that together with his feel may identify an issue or opportunity for the bike to be improved/altered that may not be apparent to riders of today as JL is coming from the Yamaha base within the current era. Dovi for example did have Yamaha and Honda experience but within the 800cc era and as such they have no direct comparison to other manufacturers in the current fuel restricted and powerplant era, something that JL does have (how this translates is a mystery today but will be interesting to watch)
Another aspect of course is that JL will likely identify and/or ask for 'changes' that suit his riding style and perhaps setup preferences which may result in improvements to the rideability (of course, they could go the other way as well) of the machine for either just himself or for all who ride the bike.
It is actually this why I feel that CS will stay for 2017 at least as whilst the styles may be similar yet different, the speeds are similar and CS may well be a very good referral point for any changes (remembering Krops comments relating to CS technical explanation abilities).
Either way, at present it is a lottery in so many ways as JL heads to the unknown but with the full factory support behind the move, something he does not have today, the test is how they all work together
Exactly my view Jumkie after the Sepang press conference, although I was much slower on the uptake over the preceding decade concerning the degree to which Rossi was complicit with that (fairly large) element of his fan base, and had almost exclusively blamed those fans themselves previously. I think it was Birdman who had been that rare phenomenon, a Biaggi fan, back in the day, who first pointed out to me a couple of years ago that Rossi deliberately used his fan base as a weapon against his rivals. My animus against Rossi now is somewhat personal I freely admit, on the basis of my Stoner fanboyism.
There are several previous examples where Rossi the perpetrator became the wronged party. Even as someone who was an (admittedly tepid) fan of Rossi's back then on the basis if his riding ability, and who had bought in to the anti-Gibernau and anti-Biaggi stuff to an extent, I was stunned by the Gibernau last corner pass watching live which I could not see as anything other than a blatant dirty move, apparently justifiable subsequently because Gibernau's previous actions had been so heinous that he had incurred a "curse", and while the incidents involved errors by Rossi rather than deliberate moves by him Stoner became the guilty party at Laguna Seca 08 and Jerez 2011, despite almost being taken out and being taken out respectively through no error on his part. Even the infamous Biaggi incident which I have gone back to review with differently prejudiced eyes involved an attempted pass on the inside at the edge of the track, when Biaggi had a wall of riders outside him and not much place to go imo.
I do largely disagree with you about Rossi's titles being "rigged", but I don't need to think his titles were rigged to mostly share your view of him otherwise, and in particular the "toxic work environment" as you put it previously he has created for his rivals.
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Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
Yes I totally agree, now go back and read my (unedited) posts again and tell me where I said he was innocent! I said he deliberately rode MM to the tracks edge , so did VR, he was wrong (by the spirit of competition) to do so.The problem Dani is that he ADMITTED riding Marquez to the edge of the track ........ this directly led to the accident and thus he was at fault.
Did he intend Marquez to crash ........... well VR says no.
Is it any different to a car being forced off a road by someone changing into the cars lane and then the car leaving the road and having an accident?
One rider did a deliberate action (admitted) .................. the end result of that action was an accident for a second rider.
The sheer fact that VR admitted to wanting to ride MM wide and at a pace far below race pace makes him culpable and he had to be punished and was ........ PERIOD (just thought I would use that word as it seems to be the 'in' word to end discussion)
What he didn't do was* premeditate* MM's crash, he did not know it was going to happen.
If it had been premeditated and then proven he would have deserved a ban from the sport.
Where do I say that you said VR was innocent?
All I am stating is that which VR himself stated and that which Race Direction stated .......... nowhere will you find my stating that you feel he is innocent.
And I will disagree, he did not premeditate the crash, he premeditated an action from which the consequence was the crash/fall.
Further, I agree in that if he had meant for MM to crash, he should have been booted up the ... and removed from the sport (as should have Hanika) but we also both know that punishing Rossi does and will only cause internet meltdowns
Sorry, didn't actually see your reply, you only get notified of "likes" these days.
My view, which is of course subject to my prejudices and biases, is similar to Povol's in a later post on this thread, that MM and Rossi were going to finish 3rd and 4th in that race regardless of all the argy bargy. I have watched Dani Pedrosa for 10 years, and just thought it was one of the fairly rare week-ends where everything is right for him and he is untouchable by anyone. Jorge was the only one who looked at all close overall to Dani in practice, and was faster than VR in every session apart from by 0.01 seconds in the last lap of qualifying. He also had the fastest lap of the race, which I am sure DP could have bettered if necessary.
You can't judge MM on 2014 form, the 2015 bike was problematic particularly early in races (6 dnfs earlier in the season vs 10 race wins on the bounce in 2014), and he had a near lose at the time JL actually passed him. I believe he would have had superior pace to Rossi eventually, but not enough to beat the top 2 riders, and may in fact have had close to equivalent pace or even slightly slower pace unless riding past the edge at the time of the duel with Rossi. Could he have been more motivated to race Rossi hard, immediately after being vilified for tanking a PI race he actually won, when he may very well by his own standards have done his best not to interfere with the contenders, rather than riding a more tactical race, waiting for his fuel load to to drop and bike to come into better balance and re-pass Rossi then? Absolutely, but as Povol said he raced cleanly and legally, did imo no more than Rossi himself had done at Motegi 2010, and Rossi (again as Povol said) has no real cause for complaint in regard to a rider he had particularly and deliberately insulted choosing to respond by racing him legally for position with more vigour than he might otherwise have employed.
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Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
For the record: I don't contend that Rossi could have won the race.
Nor have I implied that Marquez was not without motivation
Nor have I implied that he did anything technically "illegal".
I was only hoping to hear one of the old timers (and not one of the overly biased boppers) concede that there was - to anyone with open eyes and reasonable objectivity - the strong appearance - of Marquez very much appearing to intentionally impede Rossi rather than simply pass him and go for the position.
That Rossi wasn't going to win the championship - that is evident.
I simply got very frustrated with all the folks who were bending over backwards with convoluted theorems and twisted rationales and just plain denial it wasn't even within the realm of possibility that Marquez was capable of simply passing Rossi. Regardless of his form and his difficulties in the first half of the season - Marquez looked in top form in the last few races.
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Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Marquez could have done things different at Sepang and still finished 3rd, but like i said, as long as he rode within the rules, i have no problem with him exacting revenge on Rossi for the outlandish claims made about PI. In the end, none of it matters, Lorenzo was winning the title one way or the other. Everything else sells print and gives Rossi an excuse for his fans.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I'm on the fence about it being okay to use the race to extract revenge. I'm sure given their preference, Honda, who are paying Marquez millions were not on the fence, and would have preferred their employee not piss about like a steroided teenager, but rather pass Rossi and while not winning the race, gaining constructor points for the championship - and still denying Rossi those points. I'm sure if Marquez had not got pushed off the track and had managed to keep Rossi back there - it would have been very satisfying for all those who are opposed to Rossi. But for me it ruined the race and brought the whole season to a horrendous conclusion.
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Thing is Kesh, that just because it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he 'was' playing with Rossi, should it also not be beyond the realms of possibility that he 'was not' playing with Rossi but rather running his own race but could do no more due to circumstances of the day?
As for his late season results, yes they were improved but let it not be forgotten that he was still in the top 4 when he fell .......... not a bad result
Others have answered, but what you have bolded is the crux of the issue. It is apparently not only OK for Rossi to voice any casual suspicion he may have, however unlikely, well aware of the effects, but such suspicion is immediately proven in the eyes of many. One of the many explanations offered for late season 2015 events is that whatever malfeasance supposedly happened at PI was payback motivated by resentment on MM's part about the Argentinean race. If MM did think Rossi deliberately took him out in that race, a view in which he was incorrect imo, the entire point is that he didn't voice such suspicions which he couldn't prove at the first press conference for the next race.
Many things are within the realm of possibility, and what you contend in regard to Sepang is much more within that realm than MM determining the race order from 1 to 4 at PI, other than 1st, in a race he actually won. I haven't denied and don't deny the possibility that how MM raced at Sepang was altered by the accusations by Rossi in the pre-Sepang press conference, I think it is very likely that he at the very least decided that he would refuse to yield a position to VR to his utmost rather than ride more tactically as he had begun to do in the latter part of the season.
In my last post but one, my specific (perhaps only) point was that the main evidence given by several posters for it being certain rather than a possibility that MM was messing with Rossi at Sepang and had easily superior pace at that point of the race was his pace in a one-off warm-up lap, with one recent protagonist claiming this as proof of MM having the pace to win the race easily. Having the fastest warm-up lap at the recent Jerez race did not in fact presage MM winning the race, he struggled with his bike all race, on a bike which Honda have had the off-season to improve since the Sepang 2015 race, and which even now fairly clearly does not allow him to ride dominantly from the get-go at all times, as he did for most of 2014, against current opposition. As Povol has said, it is MM's race to run, and he can elect any race strategy he chooses as long as he rides legally, and it is my opinion also in agreement with Povol that any alternative race strategy would have had the same result as this one would have had MM not been taken out, ie MM 3rd in the race, Rossi 4th.
The burden of proof as I have said on many occasions very much lies with those raising conspiracy theories rather than those at whom they are directed imo. The possibility, or even likelihood, that MM didn't race as he would normally have raced at Sepang is not post hoc proof of the ridiculous conspiracy theory raised in regard to PI pre-race, but rather if it did occur was a consequence of those allegations, all again in my opinion.
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Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
How else would you do it, society has deemed it barbaric to actually settle things like men. I would much rather have seen Marquez kick the .... out of Rossi, but we dont seem to be able to handle that anymore. As far as Honda and the constructors cup, that was done and dusted by Sepang.
Perhaps oddly given it is MM we are talking about, if all that occurred was purely revenge and nothing else, MM was far more civilised about it, electing to exact his revenge by racing VR legally for position, perhaps twisting the knife by using the time-honoured Rossi tactic of allowing no pass to stick, and aping what Rossi himself had done in a similar circumstance at Motegi 2010, while Rossi's method of choice was to take MM out of the race by means of an illegal move.
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