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FINALLY CONFIRMED!! Ducati Welcome Lorenzo

Great point about the upgraded gearbox for the M1. Rossi 'developed' that quarter of a million dollar contraption in his personal motohomes.

We can only wonder what 08/09 might have looked like had Bridgestone stuck to their guns. Obviously Rossi would have quit. Not to mention the wins Stoner didn't get while ill, which I'd also say was made worse by the all around disrespect and negativity he endured partly thanks to the same reason Lorenzo and Marquez are booed today. But I don't quite understand why you keep repeating the GP10 was an absolute pig in the 'context' of Rossi's lack of success in 2011. Same bike two different riders, one won the other didn't. Apples Apples. And even that is a bit of a stretch since Casey had to deal with being blame wilst Rossi’s word was the word of god. The difference in treatment alone is enough for a positive affect on Rossi to win 3 or more races. Surely he was as good, though we know he is better, than Stoner.
Stoner had zero DNFs in 2007 and 2009, and only one in 2011 and that not of his own causation.

He said himself that that the DNFs on the 2010 bike were due to random front end loses, so I choose to believe him rather than the narrative of the time which Burgess and Rossi evidently took on that they were all due to rider errors. It wasn't until Rossi got there that the tyre narrative became more of a thing, but it wasn't very prevalent in 2010.

I followed Rossi's adventures at Ducati closely; I didn't think it possible to transform the bike into a bike which behaved conventionally but thought they were the best bet to attempt sorting it. I believe they actually eventually got rid of the front end instability/front end loses, but the bike still wouldn't turn and Rossi couldn't ride it at a competitive pace; Rossi and Burgess eventually decided that Stoner had only managed to ride the the thing fast by the unique method of nearly crashing it in every corner, something Rossi couldn't replicate, or certainly didn't care to try. I actually found what he eventually concluded quite interesting, and he was I thought rather humble in some of the longer interviews/articles; the humility perhaps did not take long term.
 
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Too old to be a bopper man, and I didn't say Vale and Jezza were right, rather they severely underestimated the task in hand, I think Vales' book title has more relevance here than his switch to Yamaha from Honda, that he bitterly regrets it I have no doubt.

You may or may not be a bopper, but age has nothing to do with it. The way you describe Vale & Burgess' arrogance as "underestimating" the task is downplaying the utter disrespect they expressed publicly, which was for affect. You're fairly new here, but I confronted Jeremy Burgess on this very arrogance, and he confirmed it by saying not only were Ducati lacking the competence to develop and set up the bike; but worse, Stoner himself lacked the will to push the machine. That is arrogance and disrespectful. They were not held to the moral hazard of their conceit though, because despite Ducati doing everything they (VR/JB) asked, Ducati still to this day is scapegoated. Rossi and Burgess have emerged squeaky clean. It's no different than religious extremism (not saying this specifically of you ) but in the face of reality, the cult figure can do no wrong. It's why he was able to commit the ultimate transgression--deliberately crash out a competitor, and not only get away with it but emerge as the victim. The perversion of logic, justice, and the test for admiration has been turned on its head! Only religion can do this, only religion can accept an institution of child rapists, institutions that treat women as mere property, accept murder as a viable consequence to infidelity, sanction bigotry, etc. It's perversion, where beating Lorenzo was helping him, too much clean passing was proof of wrong doing, crashing out a rider justified, not passing proof of cheating, wilst passing riders who pulled over a sign of respect. This whole thing is so perverted.
 
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You may or may not be a bopper, but age has nothing to do with it. The way you describe Vale & Burgess' arrogance as "underestimating" the task is downplaying the utter disrespect they expressed publicly, which was for affect. You're fairly new here, but I confronted Jeremy Burgess on this very arrogance, and he confirmed it by saying not only were Ducati lacking the competence to develop and set up the bike; but worse, Stoner himself lacked the will to push the machine. That is arrogance and disrespectful. They were not held to the moral hazard of their conceit though, because despite Ducati doing everything they (VR/JB) asked, Ducati still to this day us scapegoated. Rossi and Burgess have emerged squeaky clean. It's no different than religious extremism (not saying this specifically of you ) but in the face of reality, the cult figure can do no wrong. It's why he was able to commit the ultimate transgression--deliberately crash out a competitor, and not only get away with it but emerge as the victim. The perversion of logic, justice, and the test for admiration has been turned on its head. Only religion can do this, only religion can accept an institution of child rapists, institutions that treat women as mere property, accept murder as a viable consequence to infidelity, sanction bigotry, etc. It's perversion, where beating Lorenzo was helping him, too much clean passing was proof if wrong doing, crashing out a rider justified, not passing proof of cheating, wilst passing riders who pulled over a sign of respect. This whole thing is so perverted.
Burgess at one stage while Rossi was off with the broken leg before the decision to go to Ducati was a guest on the pre-race coverage of one of the GPs on Australian TV, and didn't seemed to be overly keen on Ducati's overall expertise then, giving the example of the upside down forks similar to those on the Yamaha introduced that year by Ducati; he contrasted their introduction at Yamaha where he and Valentino didn't even see them until they had been exhaustively tested by the Yamaha test riders. To be fair, his 80 seconds comment was also about the satellite bikes; I am not sure if it was still the ramshackle D' Antin operation then.

No doubt they seriously underestimated their task and what Stoner had been doing on the bike, however, in which view they were hardly alone.
 
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So, Jumkie , you actually see Rossi as evil personified no ? I'd call it a descent into paranoia, post PI which came out in the PC, followed up with an attack of the red mist in the race, Marquez was also culpable as he was not conducting his own race as he would normally, in cases of provocation like this, people react abnormally and I think you forget this, nobody is perfect and everybody has a tipping point.
 
So, Jumkie , you actually see Rossi as evil personified no ? I'd call it a descent into paranoia, post PI which came out in the PC, followed up with an attack of the red mist in the race, Marquez was also culpable as he was not conducting his own race as he would normally, in cases of provocation like this, people react abnormally and I think you forget this, nobody is perfect and everybody has a tipping point.
I have to say my main feeling watching the Sepang race was that all of MM's moves as opposed to some in the past were clean racing moves, and not analysing it much further at the time.

He was certainly very determined not to let a pass from Valentino stick. That he could have pulled away from Valentino or taken him up to the leaders remains an assumption; Valentino could perhaps also have made the case for being held up himself stronger if he had shown faster pace after MM was out. The main evidence seems to have been an outlier fast lap from MM in the warm-up after Dani had basically dominated the other sessions. I could point out that MM had the fastest warm-up lap last week-end at Jerez, but it would seem unlikely he was deliberately tanking to finish third in that race.
 
So, Jumkie , you actually see Rossi as evil personified no ? I'd call it a descent into paranoia, post PI which came out in the PC, followed up with an attack of the red mist in the race, Marquez was also culpable as he was not conducting his own race as he would normally, in cases of provocation like this, people react abnormally and I think you forget this, nobody is perfect and everybody has a tipping point.

I see Rossi complicit in leveraging the corruption of Dorna to create a rigged competition. I see Rossi using his influence and fanbase as a disgusting and cowardly weapon against rivals for their 'crime' of daring to realize their dreams of becoming motorcycle champions at the top level.

I've had this opinion over a decade, and have been repeating it since. There have been many events that have confirmed it, but up until 2015 it was difficult to make the case until Rossi had his revealing public meltdown, up until then when push came to shove he got his way. He threatened to quit, then Carmelo gave him what he demanded. Of course he never had to display publicly his tantrums, those were reserved behind closed doors. All we got were public spill over, like a weird mock interview where he interviewed his dad (circa 07-08) the not so subtle message was cleared up once the league acquiesced to his demands.

After Rossi deliberately crashed out Marc, I thought for sure this would be the ah ha moment, the smoking gun, the revelation of the man I've been aware of, but alas, even I underestimated the reality of Rossi worship and the utter cult dynamic that exists surrounding this man (including the casual following of Rossi). You say you're not a bopper, I actually believe you, because watching and seeing Rossi's performance and record certainly appears like it was all achieved authentically, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's our human tendency to observe an enterprise packaged as a competition as genuine. Hence why WWE is so successful.

You characterized Rossi /Burgess going to Ducati as mere "underestimating" but glossed over the context of arrogance, conceit, capriciousness, and smug disrespect they expressed against Stoner and Ducati in that very context. I think lots of people feel this way, the way you have described it, because they were unaware of the context or simply don't believe it. But make no mistake, it was a dig at Stoner.

On the subject of Marc's "provocation", even this is absolute perversion, as it was Rossi who was the provocateur! Unless you can point out you suspected Marquez was involved in dubious activity a day before Rossi registered his McCarthyist accusations, you're assessment of some "provocation" is as tainted as any person who bought into the Yellow (red) Scare. It may appea as Marc's provocation because Rossi told us to interpret the exchange of Sepang within that lense, it worked! Yet 3 other riders raced just as hard at PI, point out one person, journalists, fan, rider, members on this forum that declared immediately after that race Marquez had deployed his mastermind plan to cheat Rossi.

Again, I submit that Rossi of Sepang is the same Rossi that disparaged Lorenzo's title with party cancelations to boot (you should pause to consider an environment where such a thing can happen), that vilified Stoner, that disparaged Hayden, that disrespected Sete, that trumped up his rivalry with Biaggi. The message was received loud and clear, love me hate them, because...i deserve to be loved, see I win, they deserve to be hated, see they lose. And he did this with the absolute support of the peculiar fanbase and the support of the League who afforded him the artificial advatages to make him "right" by virtue of a rigged playing field. MotoGP doesn't operate in a bubble of authenticity free from the power politics that shape the world you live in.

Everyone loves the winner, and winning erases the moral hazzard of his transgressions. Rossi crashed out a fellow competitor! It doesn't get any more Tonya Harding than that! Except unlike Harding, Rossi is the victim. Rossi is the Nancy Kerrigan. It's stunning perversion! And not only are the Yellow fans perverse, the paddock either are too scared (see Davide Bravio's recent interview) or perhaps like you think this was an isolated incident to be forgiven (not part of a long ongoing modus operandi); and I'll add the supposed impartial sport media are weak or incompetent to bring light to this ..... And why or how could they, they're so embedded they can't possibly be impartial. Most the journalists are cozy with the paddock, most the journalists are cozy with their subjects, and most the journalists understand and are aware of their relationship with the organization. Read the journalists tweets, this becomes abundantly clear. Though I'll add, the media can become vocal, like say when an individual pisses them off, then they all of a sudden find their voice, they can express themselves quite harshly.
 
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All this talk about SNSs or a facsimile thereof falls below the mark of even baseless speculation. It's a cotton candy paranoid fantasy spun for the purposes of propping up rationales to continue with the further hyperbolic demonization of Rossi.

Why would it be that Michelin, who make tires far in advance of every race, that Michelin would only be capable of making good tires for European rounds? The tires has thus far sucked at EVERY round. The poor quality of the Michelins have been complained about at every race this season. It's not as if Michelin can use anything they know from pre-Bridgestone era - to make the tires better for 2016. Everything about the bikes has changed drastically, and the surfaces of the track as well. Let's face it - they're essentially using 2016 as a learning year. At present they are flying blind.

One win by Rossi doesn't presage a dominant season by him, nor is it an indicator of any conspiracy to bring him another championship. If Rossi can pole and win the next three races in a row, I'll start to believe in the conspiracy. Frankly there's more evidence to support a conspiracy to discourage Dovi from trying to get a podium again this year.
 
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So, Jumkie , you actually see Rossi as evil personified no ? I'd call it a descent into paranoia, post PI which came out in the PC, followed up with an attack of the red mist in the race, Marquez was also culpable as he was not conducting his own race as he would normally, in cases of provocation like this, people react abnormally and I think you forget this, nobody is perfect and everybody has a tipping point.

Those are Rossi words that in reality have no meaning. Marquez's race is his and his alone. As long as he is not doing anything illegal, he is free to strategize any damn way he wants, including ....... with Rossi as pay back for questioning his integrity. The .... part about this entire episode, is in an upside down world, Rossi benefited from his illegal actions and Marquez and Lorenzo came out as the bad guys. Not only did he secure a spot illegally that he would almost certainly would have lost, he was allowed to keep all the points. He literally came out 3 points ahead from blatantly cheating with the blessings of Dorna.His penalty was was finishing 4th at Valencia 20 seconds down instead of 5, and a built in excuse for choking the title away.Its a different dimension of reality.
 
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I have to say my main feeling watching the Sepang race was that all of MM's moves as opposed to some in the past were clean racing moves, and not analysing it much further at the time.

He was certainly very determined not to let a pass from Valentino stick. That he could have pulled away from Valentino or taken him up to the leaders remains an assumption; Valentino could perhaps also have made the case for being held up himself stronger if he had shown faster pace after MM was out. The main evidence seems to have been an outlier fast lap from MM in the warm-up after Dani had basically dominated the other sessions. I could point out that MM had the fastest warm-up lap last week-end at Jerez, but it would seem unlikely he was deliberately tanking to finish third in that race.

Or conversely - it could be considered an educated guess based on Marquez's abilities as evidenced by his insanely dominant first two seasons, and his 2015 mid-season coming-to-grips with the peaky engine combined with the return of his 2014 chassis. It's true nobody can read a rider's mind, but one can in fact reference past performances by Marquez, whose performance in the 2015 season was improving, whilst Rossi was essentially treading water. Just sayin'.
 
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Those are Rossi words that in reality have no meaning. Marquez's race is his and his alone. As long as he is not doing anything illegal, he is free to strategize any damn way he wants, including ....... with Rossi as pay back for questioning his integrity. The .... part about this entire episode, is in an upside down world, Rossi benefited from his illegal actions and Marquez and Lorenzo came out as the bad guys. Not only did he secure a spot illegally that he would almost certainly would have lost, he was allowed to keep all the points. He literally came out 3 points ahead from blatantly cheating with the blessings of Dorna.His penalty was was finishing 4th at Valencia 20 seconds down instead of 5, and a built in excuse for choking the title away.Its a different dimension of reality.

Why only highlight that part only as I said 'as he normally would' my words and opinion and only influenced by me and what I saw that day, I don't waste time poring over and over the same old clip trying to apportion blame. So to recap , I saw two blokes racing like it was the last lap very early in the race, it looked more like a war of attrition than a Moto GP race, then one guy lost the plot and rode the other to the tracks edge where he fell off, out of order -yes but not deliberate. Which is why the punishment was set to fit the crime, if it had been deliberate and proven to be so there would have been much worse recriminations and that never happened. And I'll tell you what else, this forum is the only place where I ever read such wild accusations and that should be a wake up call !
 
Why only highlight that part only as I said 'as he normally would' my words and opinion and only influenced by me and what I saw that day, I don't waste time poring over and over the same old clip trying to apportion blame. So to recap , I saw two blokes racing like it was the last lap very early in the race, it looked more like a war of attrition than a Moto GP race, then one guy lost the plot and rode the other to the tracks edge where he fell off, out of order -yes but not deliberate. Which is why the punishment was set to fit the crime, if it had been deliberate and proven to be so there would have been much worse recriminations and that never happened. And I'll tell you what else, this forum is the only place where I ever read such wild accusations and that should be a wake up call !

You dont think what Rossi did was deliberate? Really.

Accusations?, never proven?, he admitted it for Christ sakes. This is why boppers are boppers.
 
You dont think what Rossi did was deliberate? Really.

Accusations?, never proven?, he admitted it for Christ sakes. This is why boppers are boppers.

Did you think what he did was deliberate, really? He admitted riding Marquez to the edge of the track and not to premeditatedly forcing him to crash, massive difference. Phobics are phobics I guess.
 
Also, since Rossi's return to Yamaha it appears M1 development has rapidly improved.

I wonder though (and no doubt there will be differing thoughts) but how much of the so called improvement is down to any talents of VR identifying issues and leading development (for want of better words)

Or, could it be down to the old chastnut of dollars and resources as with VR in a team there are more dollars to that team (in Yamaha terms, present and future dollars) and thus the bean counters release more dollars and resources into teh sheer development process. Basically, with more money coming in, we can spend more money to achieve the results going out, which then returns the reward of even more money coming in due to results.?
 
Did you think what he did was deliberate, really? He admitted riding Marquez to the edge of the track and not to premeditatedly forcing him to crash, massive difference. Phobics are phobics I guess.

You are a feeble minded dangerous ...... if thats what you espouse after seeing the incident. It was a move that does not belong in any form of racing.
What is really debateable is why rossi can still be racing after that incident.
 
You are a feeble minded dangerous ...... if thats what you espouse after seeing the incident. It was a move that does not belong in any form of racing.
What is really debateable is why rossi can still be racing after that incident.

Oh dear!
 
Burgess at one stage while Rossi was off with the broken leg before the decision to go to Ducati was a guest on the pre-race coverage of one of the GPs on Australian TV, and didn't seemed to be overly keen on Ducati's overall expertise then, giving the example of the upside down forks similar to those on the Yamaha introduced that year by Ducati; he contrasted their introduction at Yamaha where he and Valentino didn't even see them until they had been exhaustively tested by the Yamaha test riders. To be fair, his 80 seconds comment was also about the satellite bikes; I am not sure if it was still the ramshackle D' Antin operation then.

No doubt they seriously underestimated their task and what Stoner had been doing on the bike, however, in which view they were hardly alone.


And credit to both, they made conciliatory comments after the Ducati experience (whether genuine or not, we shall never know but conciliatory none the less)

I do also recall seeing a TV interview with JB post sacking (as he was sacked by VR afterall) where he backed even further away from the earlier comments but never apologised
 
I wonder though (and no doubt there will be differing thoughts) but how much of the so called improvement is down to any talents of VR identifying issues and leading development (for want of better words)

Or, could it be down to the old chastnut of dollars and resources as with VR in a team there are more dollars to that team (in Yamaha terms, present and future dollars) and thus the bean counters release more dollars and resources into teh sheer development process. Basically, with more money coming in, we can spend more money to achieve the results going out, which then returns the reward of even more money coming in due to results.?

My gut instinct here is that the engineers in the garage, and back at Yamaha, lead most of the development. Obviously Rossi has input, and for all I know a lot of input. However, I suspect Vale issues his complaints about the bike and the talented engineers at Yamaha get it done!
 
My gut instinct here is that the engineers in the garage, and back at Yamaha, lead most of the development. Obviously Rossi has input, and for all I know a lot of input. However, I suspect Vale issues his complaints about the bike and the talented engineers at Yamaha get it done!

That is the way I see it, and thus I feel that VR personally has squat to do with any improvements but the dollars that follow him have allowed more resources to be used and thus the flow on is quicker and better development
 
Did you think what he did was deliberate, really? He admitted riding Marquez to the edge of the track and not to premeditatedly forcing him to crash, massive difference. Phobics are phobics I guess.

Like i said , you could at least pretend to be paying attention. You can forego the race and get the Rossi report and be right up to snuff on whats going on in the world of GP.
 
Did you think what he did was deliberate, really? He admitted riding Marquez to the edge of the track and not to premeditatedly forcing him to crash, massive difference. Phobics are phobics I guess.

The problem Dani is that he ADMITTED riding Marquez to the edge of the track ........ this directly led to the accident and thus he was at fault.

Did he intend Marquez to crash ........... well VR says no.

Is it any different to a car being forced off a road by someone changing into the cars lane and then the car leaving the road and having an accident?

One rider did a deliberate action (admitted) .................. the end result of that action was an accident for a second rider.

The sheer fact that VR admitted to wanting to ride MM wide and at a pace far below race pace makes him culpable and he had to be punished and was ........ PERIOD (just thought I would use that word as it seems to be the 'in' word to end discussion :D )
 

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