- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
That's not how your remarks were taken. In-fact you took a fair bit of flak in that thread for it and i don't recall you coming back to explain yourself.
Ezpeleta Rossi Will Ride Competitive bike 2013
Help Support MotoGP Forum:
That's not how your remarks were taken. In-fact you took a fair bit of flak in that thread for it and i don't recall you coming back to explain yourself.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
That maybe so but you tell me where outside of the usa Hayden is as popular as Lorenzo. After all that was your point.
Arrabbiata1
Blue Smoker
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2008
- Messages
- 6,925
- Location
- Out of Nowhere
I could compose one of equal length as to why I don't particularly like Stoner (albeit I have more respect for him), but my point being - this is already more than an adequately addressed topic upon a daily basis on this forum.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
I think if we separately compiled a list detailing precisely who these members are it would be pretty similar, but although I neither particularly like Rossi or Stoner and as an impartial observer, perhaps a fraction of the length of one which could be drawn up representing the hatred towards Stoner. Hater is indeed a strong word. Few hate Rossi - he is manifestly popular..which has raised the profile of this sport immeasurably. If we are talking hatred - look no further than CS. I am not aware of any rider who has had more genuine levels of hate directed against him than Casey Stoner....not even Phil Reid...or judging from my recent experimental thread not even the ridiculous and tragic figure of Anthony Gobert who clearly has no remorse or compunction concerning his wasted career opportunities and those he has hurt along the way.
For every member on this forum that has called Rossi there must be another ten who have lampooned him for his illness or the frequency of his low sides in 2009 and 2010. Casey was supposedly washed up - finished, given what we now know about the front end of that Ducati his achievements are in hindsight astonishing. At Silverstone on Saturday afternoon he came out on the Riders For Health Stage and was predictably roundly booed by several hundred people adorned in that ...... lurid yellow. The hatred seems to have emerged in 2008 - given that it was the same fraternity booing Pedrosa in 2006 in Parc Ferme at Donington, having beaten Valentino the following year it's not hard to deduce why. The other contributory factor in the UK appears to have been Stoner branding Donington as a '.... circuit' the same year, a fair comment which I actually partially agree with. Since then Casey hasn't exactly acquitted himself well and as a PR nightmare has alienated press, paddock and public alike. He does himself no favours perhaps the post race Laguna outburst was his nadir and I have little time myself for his repeated petulance.
Rog recently posted that there are those who want to see Rossi beaten irrespective of who does it and express a similar dislike for his fans.
Let's cut to the chase - I'm one of those people. Further - I don't like Valentino Rossi. I've thought about Rog's post and admit it. I love seeing Rossi beaten and I have little time for his adoring acolytes. There, I said it....much like being a recusant or a 16th Century heretic - to openly post on a motorcycling racing forum that you dislike Rossi...you might as well declare your membership of the BNP or Ku Klux Clan, admit to being a ........., or even profess a penchant for bestiality.
Yet, I am not a hater. I don't hate Rossi. Allow me to elucidate. I love seeing Rossi beaten, but I also love to see him win. Rossi elevated this sport to levels not seen since the Golden Age of the late 80's and early '90s when the gods engaged in titanic battles and we watched in awe. The aliens have similar transcendent levels of talent. When Rossi rode for Yamaha his competitors had to raise their game to untold levels in order to challenge him similarly bringing out unseen reserves in Rossi's abilities. Catalunya 2009 was one of the greatest memorable victories I have ever seen in Grand Prix motorcycle racing, similarly Donington 2005 was perhaps the finest wet weather wins it has been my pleasure to witness. I love it when Rossi is pushed, yet many so called fans were content to see him disappear unassailed and throughout most of 2002 vastly superior machinery. I found it mind numbingly tedious just as I wanted to see Casey challenged last year.
I don't like Valentino Rossi. I said it again. Why? I find his personality and public persona fake, and believe him to be duplicitous, scheming, insincere and disingenuous. Whilst I love his studious devotion to the sport I found his supposed post race acknowledgements/tributes to Ago, Hailwood and Nieto self aggrandising and egotistical and would loved to have invaded the track taking a blowtorch to that ......' ridiculous 25 metre long banner at Assen in 2010 - 100 victories aside. Yeah, I'll reaffirm - I love to see him lose as well.
I don't like Valentino Rossi. His sanctimonious dismissal of tobacco advertising only to hypocritically reap millions from Altadis came together with the tax scandal over which he quickly distanced himself from the dubious Gibo Baldi/Great White management despite being privy and complicit to the entire evasion scam. I found his reaction to Lorenzo and ultimatum to Yamaha both childish and petulant and the wall as pathetic as the one that divided Repsol Honda at Pedrosa's behest. The move to Ducati was one of the most costly, miscalculated and conceited .... ups since Sheene sported a Yamaha T shirt whilst under contract to Suzuki, and the ........ about the shoulder injury astonishing in view of the sheer vitriol vented on Stoner following his Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Rossi's underwhelming performance at Ducati I initially defended. But a year down the line I feel no sympathy - just schadenfreude given the arrogance prior to his signing to Ducati. The move on Gibbers at Jerez was venerated and has gone down in Tavullian lore, but Gibbers had beaten him fairly - I thought it was frankly .... desperate opportunistic riding (which I do hate) - alongside his skittling of Melandri at Motegi and his very very crap move at Jerez in 2011. Had Casey taken Valentino in the same way the forum would have gone into melt down. Finally, I feel the 9 times world champion mantle flatters to deceive and frequently used hyperbole by his fanboys which brings me to......the fans.
No I don't tend to like glory hunters - never had, one of the main reasons I love it when Manchester United lose. I worry for the sport because most of these guys will desert GP when Rossi retires. Ezy is desperate to wring/milk every last drop out of the golden ... that is the Rossi phenomenon and is again intent on manipulating the rules in his favour. This is the first time in his career with the exception of 2004 that he has not enjoyed significant comparative advantage and the fans are deserting in their droves instead of getting behind him. Only the true fans of both Rossi and first and foremost GP motorcycle racing tend to and will remain. I detest the incessant kitsch Aldo Drudi helmet designs, the nauseating yellow paraphernalia that pollutes the crowds and the fickle nature of the bandwagon jumpers. The genuine Rossi fans tend to be true devotees and advocees of the sport
Hate? nah, but there's nothing wrong with a justified dislike. Hate? - put it this way, I'd never gloat or delight in Valentino Rossi crashing a motorcycle out of either a race or practice. That's hate.
Suppose your right mate, after all i've never been quiet about my dis-like for gibbers.
On another point, i was at donny in 02 i think it was and biaggi got booed after coming second to rossi. Thing was the people doing all the booing were spanish speaking. Because they were showing support for porto i will assume they where ....... argies. Oh yeah i hate them too
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2008
- Messages
- 3,210
- Location
- Outback Steakhouse
I would say he was neither liked or disliked in the uk. he is very much like part of the furniture but the old chair out back somewhere. Ask yourself, How many fans in Europe do you see clad in #69 stuff? See plenty at Laguna but never seen it at a European round. Well not unless jumkie has attended
There was actually a dedicated Nicky stand selling his gear at Silverstone this year. First time I have ever seen one at a GP apart from Laguna. Wasn't as busy as the Hector stand
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
Was Jumkie running it ?
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2008
- Messages
- 3,210
- Location
- Outback Steakhouse
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 3,155
- Location
- siebenbürgen süße heimat!
great post arrabi , this last part is really something to think about. .... those "fans" that boo riders,especially if theyre devoting some of their time during a grand prix for a good cause.
as far as i am concerned stoner never did anything really wrong. can't remember him crashing into other riders because of dangerous riding,talking .... or whatever.
its sad when its obvious that his only crime was beating the puppet master
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2007
- Messages
- 10,518
- Location
- Tennessee
Nah, probably Earl and Rose.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
- 11,378
- Location
- Pomona NY
I would say he was neither liked or disliked in the uk. he is very much like part of the furniture but the old chair out back somewhere. Ask yourself, How many fans in Europe do you see clad in #69 stuff? See plenty at Laguna but never seen it at a European round. Well not unless jumkie has attended
Hayden fans are real fans and not drawn to the impulse to wear the yellow badge of sheepdom. In the USA - if you're not hanging with the Powerslide crew - people are wont to say when his name comes up in conversation: Cal? Cal who??? Oh that guy, ain't he Irish or somethin'?
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 3,451
- Location
- The North!
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 3,451
- Location
- The North!
I think if we separately compiled a list detailing precisely who these members are it would be pretty similar, but although I neither particularly like Rossi or Stoner and as an impartial observer, perhaps a fraction of the length of one which could be drawn up representing the hatred towards Stoner. Hater is indeed a strong word. Few hate Rossi - he is manifestly popular..which has raised the profile of this sport immeasurably. If we are talking hatred - look no further than CS. I am not aware of any rider who has had more genuine levels of hate directed against him than Casey Stoner....not even Phil Reid...or judging from my recent experimental thread not even the ridiculous and tragic figure of Anthony Gobert who clearly has no remorse or compunction concerning his wasted career opportunities and those he has hurt along the way.
For every member on this forum that has called Rossi there must be another ten who have lampooned him for his illness or the frequency of his low sides in 2009 and 2010. Casey was supposedly washed up - finished, given what we now know about the front end of that Ducati his achievements are in hindsight astonishing. At Silverstone on Saturday afternoon he came out on the Riders For Health Stage and was predictably roundly booed by several hundred people adorned in that ...... lurid yellow. The hatred seems to have emerged in 2008 - given that it was the same fraternity booing Pedrosa in 2006 in Parc Ferme at Donington, having beaten Valentino the following year it's not hard to deduce why. The other contributory factor in the UK appears to have been Stoner branding Donington as a '.... circuit' the same year, a fair comment which I actually partially agree with. Since then Casey hasn't exactly acquitted himself well and as a PR nightmare has alienated press, paddock and public alike. He does himself no favours perhaps the post race Laguna outburst was his nadir and I have little time myself for his repeated petulance.
Rog recently posted that there are those who want to see Rossi beaten irrespective of who does it and express a similar dislike for his fans.
Let's cut to the chase - I'm one of those people. Further - I don't like Valentino Rossi. I've thought about Rog's post and admit it. I love seeing Rossi beaten and I have little time for his adoring acolytes. There, I said it....much like being a recusant or a 16th Century heretic - to openly post on a motorcycling racing forum that you dislike Rossi...you might as well declare your membership of the BNP or Ku Klux Clan, admit to being a ........., or even profess a penchant for bestiality.
Yet, I am not a hater. I don't hate Rossi. Allow me to elucidate. I love seeing Rossi beaten, but I also love to see him win. Rossi elevated this sport to levels not seen since the Golden Age of the late 80's and early '90s when the gods engaged in titanic battles and we watched in awe. The aliens have similar transcendent levels of talent. When Rossi rode for Yamaha his competitors had to raise their game to untold levels in order to challenge him similarly bringing out unseen reserves in Rossi's abilities. Catalunya 2009 was one of the greatest memorable victories I have ever seen in Grand Prix motorcycle racing, similarly Donington 2005 was perhaps the finest wet weather wins it has been my pleasure to witness. I love it when Rossi is pushed, yet many so called fans were content to see him disappear unassailed and throughout most of 2002 vastly superior machinery. I found it mind numbingly tedious just as I wanted to see Casey challenged last year.
I don't like Valentino Rossi. I said it again. Why? I find his personality and public persona fake, and believe him to be duplicitous, scheming, insincere and disingenuous. Whilst I love his studious devotion to the sport I found his supposed post race acknowledgements/tributes to Ago, Hailwood and Nieto self aggrandising and egotistical and would loved to have invaded the track taking a blowtorch to that ......' ridiculous 25 metre long banner at Assen in 2010 - 100 victories aside. Yeah, I'll reaffirm - I love to see him lose as well.
I don't like Valentino Rossi. His sanctimonious dismissal of tobacco advertising only to hypocritically reap millions from Altadis came together with the tax scandal over which he quickly distanced himself from the dubious Gibo Baldi/Great White management despite being privy and complicit to the entire evasion scam. I found his reaction to Lorenzo and ultimatum to Yamaha both childish and petulant and the wall as pathetic as the one that divided Repsol Honda at Pedrosa's behest. The move to Ducati was one of the most costly, miscalculated and conceited .... ups since Sheene sported a Yamaha T shirt whilst under contract to Suzuki, and the ........ about the shoulder injury astonishing in view of the sheer vitriol vented on Stoner following his Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Rossi's underwhelming performance at Ducati I initially defended. But a year down the line I feel no sympathy - just schadenfreude given the arrogance prior to his signing to Ducati. The move on Gibbers at Jerez was venerated and has gone down in Tavullian lore, but Gibbers had beaten him fairly - I thought it was frankly .... desperate opportunistic riding (which I do hate) - alongside his skittling of Melandri at Motegi and his very very crap move at Jerez in 2011. Had Casey taken Valentino in the same way the forum would have gone into melt down. Finally, I feel the 9 times world champion mantle flatters to deceive and frequently used hyperbole by his fanboys which brings me to......the fans.
No I don't tend to like glory hunters - never had, one of the main reasons I love it when Manchester United lose. I worry for the sport because most of these guys will desert GP when Rossi retires. Ezy is desperate to wring/milk every last drop out of the golden ... that is the Rossi phenomenon and is again intent on manipulating the rules in his favour. This is the first time in his career with the exception of 2004 that he has not enjoyed significant comparative advantage and the fans are deserting in their droves instead of getting behind him. Only the true fans of both Rossi and first and foremost GP motorcycle racing tend to and will remain. I detest the incessant kitsch Aldo Drudi helmet designs, the nauseating yellow paraphernalia that pollutes the crowds and the fickle nature of the bandwagon jumpers. The genuine Rossi fans tend to be true devotees and advocees of the sport
Hate? nah, but there's nothing wrong with a justified dislike. Hate? - put it this way, I'd never gloat or delight in Valentino Rossi crashing a motorcycle out of either a race or practice. That's hate.
Fantastic post Arrabi,
Probs the best I've read since I joined this god forsaken place!
Bravo Sir
Here in lies the problem of perception, devotion and allegiance
This brings me to the inevitable to balance things out, especially considering Arrib's rather well-written piece on his views on Mr Rossi, all of which come to no surprise to me and many others here no doubt.
Well do people really 'Hate' Casey Stoner? I would say yes, just as some also hate Valentino Rossi. Though it may surprise some that IMO the reason for this hate for both are actually similar........let me explain.
Casey Stoner in a lot of ways struggled to make it in Motogp, or should I say his parents did. Packing up their life and selling their property in OZ to chase a dream-for their son, who at the time would have had very little 'real' comprehension of the sacrifice being made. And the camper trips across Europe to go and race Motorcycles would certainly seem to most early teens to be a fantastic adventure, even though a lot claim he was 'roughing it'. I'm sure that any individual who ever showed promise in any discipline or field would give anything to have parents like the Stoners, and this is to be envied. And Envy inspires Hate.....
Just as Valentino Rossi's ascension into 125cc championships in Italy, then on the world stage, was heavily influenced by his Fathers connections, and of course the incredible promise he showed as a rider. Once again any aspiring rider would love to have a ex-250cc GP rider as a Father, who not only encouraged but paved the way for his son's shot at the big time. This is to be envied, and Envy inspires Hate.......
Now from the outset it was clear that Casey Stoner was not good at talking to the press or making public statements, this is easily proven back in 2003 at Phillip Island during the live telecast of the GP's Stoner was a special guest talking with Daryl Beattie, Greg rust and Mick Doohan. The only part of this interview that resonates with me, and sure a lot of others, are Casey's whiny, whinging comments about the state of the sand traps at Australia's premier racetrack (whinging that would become synonymous with Stoner and various Racetracks around the world). Now far from being constructive criticism, these remarks were the verbal diarrhea of a spoilt child. Albeit the comments were referencing an important issue, but the way in which they were delivered was pathetic and made me wonder how this young kid was already so 'distorted'. Now, at this point, many around young Mr Stoner could no doubt see the makings of a PR nightmare, maybe some tried to fix the problem-who knows, all we know is this has never improved. I disagree that people dislike Stoner for being an introvert, they dislike him for being a .........
As with Valentino Rossi, who being the complete opposite PR wise, has never had an issue dealing with the press, always says what he wants and skews it in a likeable way. Even when addressing issues of safety, Rossi gets his point across very well. The clown antics in complete juxtaposition of the behind the scenes political power and general 'clout', whilst seeming like a Jeckal and Hyde type trait which makes him appear like a ........, leaves Rossi open for people to dislike him. Rossi has made some monumental bungles also when talking to the press, the public outburst on Tobacco money, whilst still to this day is funding his racing was probably the largest. Not too mention the rider slurs, particularly with Stoner, Biaggi and Gibbers. For some, this is arrogant, ........ like behavior. Sounds familiar to a lot of Stoners comments on Rossi's Ducati woes.........peas in a pot.
Stoner's problems upon his ascension to the premier class in 2006 were fairly obvious to the casual observer, however we didn't here too much publically because he was a relative unknown and not making any real inroads in the title chase. Behind the scenes was apparently a much different story, temper tantrums and abuse of his crew and team owner-and key supporter Lucio Checinelo were par for the course. Stoner was a straight talker alright, far too straight and his behavior once again comes across looking rather spolit child like, completely understandable as he was a spolit child.
Fast forward to 2007, Stoner's departure from LCR opens the door to Ducati, and a revolutionary (with hindsight not at all) new formula-with stunningly good new Bridgestones and a very quick duck. Stoner's woe's with the press now went on steroids, constantly justifying that it was him, not the bike nor the tyres, beating the worlds best-and beating them very well. While a lot of the world looked on and saw the Ducati romping past its opposition on the huge straights like they were in a different class altogether, and didn't see deterioration in lap-times with Bridgestones new compounds not 'going off' as was the case in the past. And of course the fuel limit ushered in brand new electronics, which seemed to most to be allowing younger riders to compete with far more ease than in the past. All of these circumstances, and more so 2008-2009-2010 and indeed 2011 led many to conclude that their assumptions of 2007 were correct. And Laguna Seca 2008 proved to be Stoners 'Everest' of PR nightmares. An event which 'polarized' views around the motorcycle racing world. After what was, one of the races of the decade, Casey proceeded to act like a complete ........ with one of the most poor displays of sportsmanship ever IMO. A display for which he had to publically apologize for afterwards. Whilst the race was not in his control, his behavior was.
2009 and the illness, which was IMO grossly miss-managed PR wise yet again. And we had Stoner's amazing performance in Parc Ferme at Catalunya, something for which we are accustomed to seeing post a defeat. One must concede that riding the Ducati is certainly a challenge, why did they not just stretcher Casey to the Medical tent? It certainly seemed necessary, but he made it to the podium and his interview to explain the defeat-leading many detractors to invent the theory that Rossi was just far too strong regardless of any illness that season. Whatever the reasons for the lack of correct diagnosis, and management of Stoner's health, many believe that the illness was never correctly explained (at the time). We started to see the 'Granpa Simpson' (thanks rog
As with Rossi, in 2010 with the shoulder and leg injuries polarizing his detractors and fans in ways never seen before. The Shoulder injury started off as bit of a mystery, with lesser performances culminating in Jorge and in some cases Dani beating the reigning champ quite easily, whilst we didn't see the 'oscar winning' type performances ala Casey in Parc Ferme, there was a lot of mention of it by Rossi in the press, leading many detractors to question its authenticity, and invent the theory that Jorge was just far too strong regardless of any injury....sounding familiar.....
Rossi's move to Ducati was the biggest mistake in modern Motogp....bar none. This was called at the time, by many including myself and continues to be highly evident. Casey Stoner certainly has enjoyed it, and has enjoyed the public digs at Rossi ever since, much in the same way Rossi use to dig at him and others. Only Jerez 2011 was 'over the top' and tattooed the '........' label on Stoner's forehead for a great majority. The jumping over the fence, geering and waving one lap after, and then the utterly ridiculous comments in the Pits were not received well by the press or the majority of fans, comments made all the worse as Stoner was far more hypocritical having just got off the Ducati-knowing its obvious and fundamental flaws, and now riding the sublime (2011) Honda. Rossi's ambition must have been off the rictor scale, as the talent he displayed dragging the duck through most of the field in the wet before losing the front was immense. Whatever the case, Stoner's behavior was very public, very poor, very immature and extremely hypocritical.
Then on to France, and Casey's ongoing war for space on track in FP with almost the entire Motogp field came to a dramatic head with his physical abuse of Randy Depuniet at speed. Probably the most ....... display I have ever seen by a professional rider. I actually don't have a balancing argument for Rossi on this one, nor do I have a balance for Stoners premature retirement this season, which as with the press conference he gave and his reasons, once again cements for many his spolit brat like way of putting things-which ultimately and rather ironically has lead to most of the hatred he experiences from fans and media alike.....
Do I hate Casey Stoner? No. I cannot hate a guy who was born with so much talent for riding a motorcycle. I do dislike him a lot and funnily enough as expanded on above it's for very similar reasons that many people dislike Rossi.......it must be something to do with the oddities of the personalities of the worlds elite sportspeople........Rossi detractors claim he is an insincere clown who has manipulated his way through the press and the public to preferential treatment, which has resulted in the majority of his race results....I'm sure for many they would like to see him stripped of most of his world titles as they were in their opinion 'illegitimately gained'. Stoner's detractors claim that he is a PR clown who's unsportsmanlike behavior should not only be penalized, but removed from the sport completely. I disagree with both. Yes Stoner is a ........, and yes Rossi is an insincere clown. But without the both of them this sport would have been very, very boring in the last 5 years or so......we don't just need racing, we need personalities...warts and all.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
Good post talps. Throw in a few kicking out at other riders on track and wanting the track to himself. I also get aggravated by the way he hangs back on the sighting lap so everyone has to wait for the king, so pre madona but the thing i really dislike is his voice. No dis-respect to the aussies here but im not a fan of the aussie accent as i find it whinny. Stoner's is extra whinny, now add his petulance to that shrill whinny voice and it just rubs me up the wrong way.
Some of the hatred towards stoner was as a result of some of his whacky fans, especially going back to 07-08. They would defend absolutely everything and anything he did or said. One of the most common defences from these fans would be to highlight any negatives of rossi as some sought of stoner defence, this turned every thread into a Rossi vs stoner gang fight which just heaped on the hatred towards stoner.
I dont hate him but im glad he is going. He and a lot of his fans turned motogp into a soap opera.
Some of the hatred towards stoner was as a result of some of his whacky fans, especially going back to 07-08. They would defend absolutely everything and anything he did or said. One of the most common defences from these fans would be to highlight any negatives of rossi as some sought of stoner defence, this turned every thread into a Rossi vs stoner gang fight which just heaped on the hatred towards stoner.
I dont hate him but im glad he is going. He and a lot of his fans turned motogp into a soap opera.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
- 11,378
- Location
- Pomona NY
These are perfectly rational and mature reasons to look forward to the departure of one of greatest racers of the last decade.
If all his fans leave here when he stops racing and all the melodramatic Boppers leave after Rossi retires it's gonna be very quiet around here.
It's a good thing Rossi fans were so dignified, grounded and intellectual.
Attachments
It is hard to know who will be more bereft next year, we poor sad fanboys who obviously didn't follow the sport prior to 2007 who won't have stoner as an object of adulation, or you poor sad fanboys who obviously didn't follow the sport prior to 2001 who won't have stoner around to not hate anymore.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
...Ahem...
Europe: 500 million people;
USA: 350 million... including Canada...
UK: 63 million
Texas: 26 million
Kentucky: 4.3 million
People living in the US tend to have an inverted telescope view of the rest of the world, we know, but...
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2007
- Messages
- 10,518
- Location
- Tennessee
I am one of those who has pointed out that rossi has sometimes exhibited similar behaviour to that for which you and others criticise stoner , but you again demonstrate that you are at least as prone to assumption as I am.
I am nothing (and in yours and pete's view I can see I may well be nothing) if not consistent. You assume that when I was pointing out that valentino once gave max the finger after considerable aggravation I was criticising valentino. Not at all, I thought at the time valentino had every right to give max the finger, and I was pointing that both he and stoner had behaved similarly, in response to similar aggravation, the degree of aggravation in the second case being similar or more to the first, imo but obviously not yours.
