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Estoril MotoGP: Rossi and Stoner clash again

Stoner, Jorge and all the others that moan about 'unfair', 'dangerous' or 'pushi' passes from Rossi or Simoncheli should be forced to race one Moto2 event. It will give them a whole new perspective

The riders are in Moto2 because they have not fully developed their craft yet. The riders in WSBK are there because their craft is not good enough for MotoGP.



Once you make it to MotoGP you are supposed to be one of the best 17 riders/racers in the world. Part of being a racer is overtaking. If you have not learned to overtake cleanly and professionally then you should go back to one of the lower series and learn your craft better.
 
The riders are in Moto2 because they have not fully developed their craft yet. The riders in WSBK are there because their craft is not good enough for MotoGP.



Once you make it to MotoGP you are supposed to be one of the best 17 riders/racers in the world. Part of being a racer is overtaking. If you have not learned to overtake cleanly and professionally then you should go back to one of the lower series and learn your craft better.



So to your point Rossi and Doohan were/are not good enough for motogp? poooo what a joke you just wrote. Being a racer is to race, otherwise the top series should be mini-bikes so there all the passes can be clean and there will be no fairing bashing.
 
Stoner, Jorge and all the others that moan about 'unfair', 'dangerous' or 'pushi' passes from Rossi or Simoncheli should be forced to race one Moto2 event. It will give them a whole new perspective

Because Moto2 is so radically different from the 250s they came up through...
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Stoner, Jorge and all the others that moan about 'unfair', 'dangerous' or 'pushi' passes from Rossi or Simoncheli should be forced to race one Moto2 event. It will give them a whole new perspective



Stoner and Jorge moan? Really? okay what about Simoncelli then? If you understand italian you can listen how he complained about Barbera a couple of years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_3ZkbSjXF4
 
So to your point Rossi and Doohan were/are not good enough for motogp? poooo what a joke you just wrote. Being a racer is to race, otherwise the top series should be mini-bikes so there all the passes can be clean and there will be no fairing bashing.



Wasn't Schwantz not good enough as well...........
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Interesting take there Hawk.



You say that Rossi potentially did the slow down - let CS past - accelerate immediately to aggravate Stoner (personally by the way - I see it that way otherwise I suspect he would have waited until well after Elias had gone to get back onto the pace).



But you then allude to Stoner being in the wrong for making an issue of it?



If one person does an act to aggravate is it wrong to respond?



For mine, neither CS or VR did anything wrong, untoward or illegal either on track or off it, as what both did was pure gamesmanship - (IMO) no more, no less.











Gaz

Did you read Stoner's response saying that Rossi is always following him around...come on Casey at least stay credible when you want to enter the verbal games. That was my issue with his response and I've found that people who are angry and emotional will be the first ones to tell a lie, and not even on purpose, his anger has clouded his memories and Rossi is clearly a burning image in his head. We all know Rossi wasn't getting a tow and if Casey would have waited to respond he wouldn't look as foolish(to me). Gamesmanship requires calculated responses not impulsiveness and it's why I think if you want to 'play' with Rossi you shouldn't always be the one reacting/responding, if you want to play you need to catch him off gaurd. Casey also makes it to easy by complaing so much, it lets everybody know what they have to do to get under your skin. We all know he hates being followed during practice so what does Rossi do, exactly that, and they all hate it but who makes the biggest fuss about it... Casey does.
 
Did you read Stoner's response saying that Rossi is always following him around...come on Casey at least stay credible when you want to enter the verbal games. That was my issue with his response and I've found that people who are angry and emotional will be the first ones to tell a lie, and not even on purpose, his anger has clouded his memories and Rossi is clearly a burning image in his head. We all know Rossi wasn't getting a tow and if Casey would have waited to respond he wouldn't look as foolish(to me). Gamesmanship requires calculated responses not impulsiveness and it's why I think if you want to 'play' with Rossi you shouldn't always be the one reacting/responding, if you want to play you need to catch him off gaurd. Casey also makes it to easy by complaing so much, it lets everybody know what they have to do to get under your skin. We all know he hates being followed during practice so what does Rossi do, exactly that, and they all hate it but who makes the biggest fuss about it... Casey does.

Whether stoner's riding is being affected by anger and whether it is wise for him to goad rossi in the first place are legitimate questions, but it is cutting both ways. Rossi equally could have ignored stoner's gesture but uncharacteristically chose to discuss it at length, and according to motomatters fired the first shot of the week-end against stoner talking to a journalist on Friday.



Stoner's problem throughout the week-end was that he couldn't achieve a good set-up in section 3, he was very fast in the first 2 sections, so unless his anger was geographical I am not sure it affected his riding. It is possible as you say that decreased focus contributed to him not achieving a better set-up, but it is also possible he just couldn't achieve a set-up on this tight circuit which he has never liked and which does not suit his riding style or the way he likes a bike, ie aggressive power delivery etc.



He did say in an interview that was broadcast pre-race on Australian TV that his ambition vs talent referred to that specific corner and incident at jerez, and not to valentino's past, present or future talent btw.
 
Did you read Stoner's response saying that Rossi is always following him around...come on Casey at least stay credible when you want to enter the verbal games. That was my issue with his response and I've found that people who are angry and emotional will be the first ones to tell a lie, and not even on purpose, his anger has clouded his memories and Rossi is clearly a burning image in his head. We all know Rossi wasn't getting a tow and if Casey would have waited to respond he wouldn't look as foolish(to me). Gamesmanship requires calculated responses not impulsiveness and it's why I think if you want to 'play' with Rossi you shouldn't always be the one reacting/responding, if you want to play you need to catch him off gaurd. Casey also makes it to easy by complaing so much, it lets everybody know what they have to do to get under your skin. We all know he hates being followed during practice so what does Rossi do, exactly that, and they all hate it but who makes the biggest fuss about it... Casey does.



Why yes, yes I did read his comments and personally I took them with a grain of salt and I will explain why.



Maybe to you and others he was factually incorrect, but as with many things he used colloquialism to explain away his problem (and not a lie as you assert).



For example, when you take holidays, does it rain?



Have you ever said - 'every bloody time I take holidays it damn well rains'?



If so, I doubt that your statement is factually correct but you have said it out of a level of frustration and as hyperbole to make your point. This I do believe was CS' motive and though process, he used a generic Aussie hyperbole statement when discussing it or answering the question. Does he believe that every time VR is on track he is trying to get a tow - probably not but at the same time let me ask have you watched every second of every practice to determine that there may not be some truth is CS' statement?



I ask as I have not and cannot and there is no doubt in my mind that there will be times when VR will follow CS and vice versa simply because of the track positioning at the time and where one will slow to try to obtain clear track, basically sometimes .... happens and they line up.



Now, to the specific incident you (like many) seem to be looking at CS' comments without paying questionable/reasoned thought to VR's actions. VR admitted that he slowed down and then sped up once CS had passed (in comments that I had seen), thus is it possible that he was indeed trying to gain 'something' else why not wait until Elias had also passed to get the clear track?



With regards to the 'gamesmanship' comment it is very true to say that reasoned responses have a better effect, but even here CS gets pilloried as un-sportsmanlike (refer Jerez after race), thus in his case he cannot win either way as he has the 'reputation' already established and thus people automatically perceive his comments negatively (not a one way street either).



Interestingly as Kropo posted on his site, all of Casey's comments were in response to direct questions and answered in a level headed, respectful tone, not that of a frustrated or pissed off rider and he even reported taht CS answered many questions with a smile. Kropo did say that the same could not be said of other riders commentary or response to questions, yet again CS is pilloried.



Again and before the usual suspects jump onto the hater bandwagon, I personally have no issue with the comments of Stoner or Rossi or Lorenzo or Simoncelli during the press conferences as it is these guys that are there, not us and as such I do think that they have a greater understanding of the meaning of their words than we can ever have.











Gaz
 
Whether stoner's riding is being affected by anger and whether it is ride for him to goad rossi in the first place are legitimate questions, but it is cutting both ways. Rossi equally could have ignored stoner's gesture but uncharacteristically chose to to discuss it at length, and according to motomatters fired the first shot of the week-end against stoner talking to a journalist on Friday.



Stoner's problem throughout the week-end was that he couldn't achieve a good set-up in section 3, he was very fast in the first 2 sections, so unless his anger was geographical I am not sure it affected his riding. It is possible as you say that decreased focus contributed to him not achieving a better set-up, but it is also possible he just couldn't achieve a set-up on this tight circuit which he has never liked and which does not suit his riding style or the way he likes a bike, ie aggressive power delivery etc.
Yeah I said he did good by coming in third place, it was good damage control(points), maybe some luck with Sic crashing out. I also said in the testing thread that he will get some pole positions this season. It isn't like I think he's slow all the sudden but it's a long season and he's down on points so ignore Rossi and everything but focusing on Pedro then Jlo. I don't have anything against Rossi, he's being his normal self. I already made the point that Rossi strikes first, as you said above, then causes people to react. Casey 'took the bait' then he got ...... for his troubles, this time on the track. Rossi will continue to prod if Stoner lets him. So I'm saying stop reacting to Rossi, be in charge of your own emotions, only Stoner can give anyone the power to make him angry or take his focus off the task at hand. Of Course everything you said is also possible, I'm just giving my ideas and what I would like to see from Stoner.
 
Why yes, yes I did read his comments and personally I took them with a grain of salt and I will explain why.



Maybe to you and others he was factually incorrect, but as with many things he used colloquialism to explain away his problem (and not a lie as you assert).



For example, when you take holidays, does it rain?



Have you ever said - 'every bloody time I take holidays it damn well rains'?



If so, I doubt that your statement is factually correct but you have said it out of a level of frustration and as hyperbole to make your point. This I do believe was CS' motive and though process, he used a generic Aussie hyperbole statement when discussing it or answering the question. Does he believe that every time VR is on track he is trying to get a tow - probably not but at the same time let me ask have you watched every second of every practice to determine that there may not be some truth is CS' statement?



I ask as I have not and cannot and there is no doubt in my mind that there will be times when VR will follow CS and vice versa simply because of the track positioning at the time and where one will slow to try to obtain clear track, basically sometimes .... happens and they line up.



Now, to the specific incident you (like many) seem to be looking at CS' comments without paying questionable/reasoned thought to VR's actions. VR admitted that he slowed down and then sped up once CS had passed (in comments that I had seen), thus is it possible that he was indeed trying to gain 'something' else why not wait until Elias had also passed to get the clear track?



With regards to the 'gamesmanship' comment it is very true to say that reasoned responses have a better effect, but even here CS gets pilloried as un-sportsmanlike (refer Jerez after race), thus in his case he cannot win either way as he has the 'reputation' already established and thus people automatically perceive his comments negatively (not a one way street either).



Interestingly as Kropo posted on his site, all of Casey's comments were in response to direct questions and answered in a level headed, respectful tone, not that of a frustrated or pissed off rider and he even reported taht CS answered many questions with a smile. Kropo did say that the same could not be said of other riders commentary or response to questions, yet again CS is pilloried.



Again and before the usual suspects jump onto the hater bandwagon, I personally have no issue with the comments of Stoner or Rossi or Lorenzo or Simoncelli during the press conferences as it is these guys that are there, not us and as such I do think that they have a greater understanding of the meaning of their words than we can ever have.











Gaz

Hey I'm just calling it like I see it.

Frustration, yep Rossi is in his head and Casey is pissed just like I would be if it always rained when I went on vacation. I haven't seen every second of every practice but Rossi is obviously no Barbera. I already said I firmly believe that Rossi was ....... with Stoner all the way when he slowed for him then went for his fast lap and I actually think he wanted to get closer, a lot closer. I'm not breaking this down as a Rossi vs Stoner fan haha my guy got yours. I'm 100% Nicky all the way and I'm critical of him too. Rossi is being himself and doing what he does to all his rivals whether real or perceived, it's his way, and I firmly believe it's a way for him to motivate himself. I don't hate the guy or the way he is and I don't think you beat him by playing his games. The only way to take the life out of him is on the track.

Calling him a dog doesn't seem reasoned, well thought out, witty, or level headed. It's also very easy to say to the journalist that you aren't here to talk about Rossi, your goal is still to win a WC just like it was on day one. Rossi got exactly what he wanted and Stoner gave it to him.

In regards to the other riders, I like Sic, he races hard. I don't like that Jlo is bringing up safety concerns about Sic because Jlo has had what, 1 good season of not being a crasher. How many people has he taken out compared to Sic while being on the 800's? How many of these other guys are also crashing but not being talked about because their crashes don't happen up front. Sic will come to terms with the bike and guys will still be crashing it's part of racing and everyone on the track has to deal with it.
 
Hey I'm just calling it like I see it.

Frustration, yep Rossi is in his head and Casey is pissed just like I would be if it always rained when I went on vacation. I haven't seen every second of every practice but Rossi is obviously no Barbera. I already said I firmly believe that Rossi was ....... with Stoner all the way when he slowed for him then went for his fast lap and I actually think he wanted to get closer, a lot closer. I'm not breaking this down as a Rossi vs Stoner fan haha my guy got yours. I'm 100% Nicky all the way and I'm critical of him too. Rossi is being himself and doing what he does to all his rivals whether real or perceived, it's his way, and I firmly believe it's a way for him to motivate himself. I don't hate the guy or the way he is and I don't think you beat him by playing his games. The only way to take the life out of him is on the track.

Calling him a dog doesn't seem reasoned, well thought out, witty, or level headed. It's also very easy to say to the journalist that you aren't here to talk about Rossi, your goal is still to win a WC just like it was on day one. Rossi got exactly what he wanted and Stoner gave it to him.

In regards to the other riders, I like Sic, he races hard. I don't like that Jlo is bringing up safety concerns about Sic because Jlo has had what, 1 good season of not being a crasher. How many people has he taken out compared to Sic while being on the 800's? How many of these other guys are also crashing but not being talked about because their crashes don't happen up front. Sic will come to terms with the bike and guys will still be crashing it's part of racing and everyone on the track has to deal with it.





Hawk, just go with me here for a minute as I throw something else into the mix (an alternate view and one that I have been wondering about).



If I understand your point it would seem that you suppose/purport that VR acted with the intention to get a reaction from CS and that by reacting in any manner is indeed evidence that CS is somehow fixated on/with VR and as such this is some indication of a mentalf flaw/failing with regards to the racing at hand. Basically, the thinking is that the 'fixation' of CS on VR is a sign that CS is not focusing fully upon his individual race and/or perhaps more relative rivals on the day and as such he runs the real risk of affecting his results (very reasonable as one's focus must be 100% to achieve the maximum in this game) .



So, let me ask, who reacted?



I ask as it would appear as though VR initiated the situation (he admits this from the quotes) by dropping back to 'gain clear track' (my words). But, he then sped up once CS passed and before Elias arrived ...... I think we can agree that the action itself was provocative and likely designed to get a reaction.



Now, without discussing the reaction itself the supposition is that by reacting CS has 'proven' that VR is indeed inside CS' head, but I purport that VR also has CS inside his (VR's) head else there was no need to perform the provocative action in the first place.



Either way, the games and shenanigans played on the track and off it add a spice that creates interest and discussion far beyond the race day itself.













Gaz
 
Casey 'took the bait' then he got ...... for his troubles, this time on the track. Rossi will continue to prod if Stoner lets him. So I'm saying stop reacting to Rossi, be in charge of your own emotions, only Stoner can give anyone the power to make him angry or take his focus off the task at hand.

As I have said previously this is not an unreasonable point of view and an opinion to which you are very obviously entitled.



I was reminded by a post on another forum though that pedrosa has chosen the more flexible honda chassis option and stoner (unsurprisingly) the stiffer one, which perhaps is an added reason why pedrosa might have been able to achieve a better set-up on the tight and bumpy estoril track.
 
As I have said previously this is not an unreasonable point of view and an opinion to which you are very obviously entitled.



I was reminded by a post on another forum though that pedrosa has chosen the more flexible honda chassis option and stoner (unsurprisingly) the stiffer one, which perhaps is an added reason why pedrosa might have been able to achieve a better set-up on the tight and bumpy estoril track.



Pedrosa is still using the 2010 chassis, right? Your interpretation sounds interesting.



Stoner is a really great rider, but at Honda he seems to have lost his traditional edge on his teammates. Sic can even beat him at his favorite game, the single fast lap, and Pedro has just been faster than him in a race. This is the real news regarding Stoner. His unique skills made a big difference on the rough Ducati, but not on the user-friendly Honda.
 
Pedrosa is still using the 2010 chassis, right? Your interpretation sounds interesting.



Stoner is a really great rider, but at Honda he seems to have lost his traditional edge on his teammates. Sic can even beat him at his favorite game, the single fast lap, and Pedro has just been faster than him in a race. This is the real news regarding Stoner. His unique skills made a big difference on the rough Ducati, but not on the user-friendly Honda.

They just referred to him having the more flexible chassis, but as I recall that is basically the 2010 chassis, yes.



I thought your hailwood (-lite) theory was not an unlikely one when you propounded it some time ago; he certainly has not had a marked advantage, such as he did with the ducati, anywhere. I think he has still appeared previously to mostly be a little ahead of both pedrosa, and of simoncelli even for single-lap pace, on a bike new to him, and it will be interesting to see whether the change in relative pace this weekend is circuit specific; it obviously in pedrosa's case could be due to physical improvement.
 
Hawk, just go with me here for a minute as I throw something else into the mix (an alternate view and one that I have been wondering about).



If I understand your point it would seem that you suppose/purport that VR acted with the intention to get a reaction from CS and that by reacting in any manner is indeed evidence that CS is somehow fixated on/with VR and as such this is some indication of a mentalf flaw/failing with regards to the racing at hand. Basically, the thinking is that the 'fixation' of CS on VR is a sign that CS is not focusing fully upon his individual race and/or perhaps more relative rivals on the day and as such he runs the real risk of affecting his results (very reasonable as one's focus must be 100% to achieve the maximum in this game) .



So, let me ask, who reacted?



I ask as it would appear as though VR initiated the situation (he admits this from the quotes) by dropping back to 'gain clear track' (my words). But, he then sped up once CS passed and before Elias arrived ...... I think we can agree that the action itself was provocative and likely designed to get a reaction.



Now, without discussing the reaction itself the supposition is that by reacting CS has 'proven' that VR is indeed inside CS' head, but I purport that VR also has CS inside his (VR's) head else there was no need to perform the provocative action in the first place.



Either way, the games and shenanigans played on the track and off it add a spice that creates interest and discussion far beyond the race day itself.













Gaz



Not at all, in fact Rossi actually had to pass Elias to get clear track. He was nowhere near Stoner, this could have been easily determined by Stoner as he would have heard Rossi. You guys are doing your best to twist this one, however all Stoner had to do was wait to look at the replay and talk to his team before he lost the plot. However he didn't and he looks like a very large fool because of it. Rossi is well and truly under his skin.



Funnily enough I just read Stoner referencing the Sic crash in front of him in the race, something like 'Sic made me lose the tow to Dani' Not the best thing to say after the weekend hes had.
 
Pedrosa is still using the 2010 chassis, right? Your interpretation sounds interesting.



Stoner is a really great rider, but at Honda he seems to have lost his traditional edge on his teammates. Sic can even beat him at his favorite game, the single fast lap, and Pedro has just been faster than him in a race. This is the real news regarding Stoner. His unique skills made a big difference on the rough Ducati, but not on the user-friendly Honda.



To be fair J4, did anyone actually and seriously expect that Stoner would be as far in front of Pedrosa (in particular) as he had been in front of his variable team-mates at Ducati?



I didn't and nor do I see a 'disaster' as yet (and I do realise that you are not suggesting that be the case) as he is around where I expected with relation to Pedrosa/Dovisioso who have far more recent experience on that machine and thus should be a measure. Although with that said I do factor in the Jerez incident as an aberration and feel that he would be around where he should be all things being equal



For me, it is Simoncelli that is over achieving at the moment but given that he has thus far only successfully produced fast laps (and not races) I will hold judgement for a while on whether he is to be a real threat this year as (IMO) he needs to seriously work on his impetuosity in the early stages. If he can do this, thence Simo will be a race win threat and as is usual with him a large physical presence on the track.











Gaz
 
Pedrosa is still using the 2010 chassis, right? Your interpretation sounds interesting.



Stoner is a really great rider, but at Honda he seems to have lost his traditional edge on his teammates. Sic can even beat him at his favorite game, the single fast lap, and Pedro has just been faster than him in a race. This is the real news regarding Stoner. His unique skills made a big difference on the rough Ducati, but not on the user-friendly Honda.



+1



This is much extra pressure, and as a lot of people have always said, Stoner and the Ducati on their day, were a match made in heaven, of all the quirks the bike had, it also won many races.
 
i've always thought that a well sorted machine would take away from caseys advantage over the other riders. on the ducati he was able to find another second, on the honda he'll still come good and find ,say, 2 tenths per lap.



lets wait a little,its far too early to judge after the unfortunate crash that wasnt his mistake and another race that for whatever reason (don't care whether its his back or if he dislikes estoril....) he "only" finished on the podium
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concerning the pressure : if i was a gp rider i'd much rather be pressured by having strong teammates than by having to ride a bad bike, at least if a championship is my goal
 
Not at all, in fact Rossi actually had to pass Elias to get clear track. He was nowhere near Stoner, this could have been easily determined by Stoner as he would have heard Rossi. You guys are doing your best to twist this one, however all Stoner had to do was wait to look at the replay and talk to his team before he lost the plot. However he didn't and he looks like a very large fool because of it. Rossi is well and truly under his skin.



Nope, not trying to do anything as I read Rossi's comments as he backed off and decided to speed up at the time (in between the two) but hey, I have only read them and not seen footage of the actual situation (have seen still photographs) so my questions are based on that information.



As an example quoted from MotoMatters ( http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/29/2011_estoril_motogp_friday_roundup_of_in.html )

The incident that ended the uneasy peace was fairly trivial, which is fitting for epic conflicts such as this. Towards the end of the second session of free practice, Valentino Rossi eased off the throttle, allowing Casey Stoner to get past. Rossi says he backed off to take a breather, before putting his head down for a final attempt at setting a fast time; Stoner says Rossi was waiting for him to get a tow. Stoner says Rossi's so desperate for a fast lap he'll wait for a tow; Rossi says that this happens in every practice session, and if Stoner is sick of people getting tows he should go race on his own.



There is no reference to his repass of Elias as you assert (not to say it did not happen but not reported here).



If the above is correct (and again, I have yet to see footage) thence it would appear fair to say that CS had every right to be 'concerned' about the actions of VR and to question their intent (ie. not saying his method was right or wrong). If you have a link to footage that shows the incident please post and if it shows different to that reported on MotoMatters than I will happily change my opinion.







Funnily enough I just read Stoner referencing the Sic crash in front of him in the race, something like 'Sic made me lose the tow to Dani' Not the best thing to say after the weekend hes had.



Why not (rhetorical as I may well know your answer)?



Afterall, we often hear that practice and one fast lap do not make a race and as such the behaviours in a race are more critical than in practice.



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Gaz
 
Nope, not trying to do anything as I read Rossi's comments as he backed off and decided to speed up at the time (in between the two) but hey, I have only read them and not seen footage of the actual situation (have seen still photographs) so my questions are based on that information.



As an example quoted from MotoMatters ( http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/29/2011_estoril_motogp_friday_roundup_of_in.html )





Why not (rhetorical as I may well know your answer)?



Afterall, we often hear that practice and one fast lap do not make a race and as such the behaviours in a race are more critical than in practice.



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Gaz



Praise be to God Casey..........
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Actually this is wrong, Rossi did speed up after Casey went past, Stoner assumed that Rossi had just got straight behind but VR had to pass Elias during the lap in question, I watched it back myself. After this Rossi was then at least 30-40 meters behind Stoner the entire lap.



Why complain about a tow, when you look for a tow yourself?..........And Casey was also quite rude to Abraham on that lap, not too mention Nicky and Spies the next day, then blamed sic for his race result.......like I said he made an arse of himself last weekend
 

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