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Estoril MotoGP: Rossi and Stoner clash again

Hopefully for you guys this may be the case, and its not something worse, as is with delusional incidents like the towing thing (which I note being brushed aside
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Too right it is being brushed aside. Who the hell cares except you with your strange quasi religious obssession with rossi apparently being exalted above other men and your exaggerated ideas of what is his due?.



As another rossi fan, perhaps a heretic, said stoner is pissed off with rossi (quite rightly in the view of more than a few) and was looking for an excuse. Reading motomatters today rossi apparently even fired the first shot of the weekend in a Friday press conference. They are fierce competitors who don't like each other, so what?. I notice that you haven't answered as to why rossi's attitude to biaggi and gibernau was justified by incidents by any measure lesser than the jerez one either.
 
With bad intent....



What is the bad intent?

can you show a picture of that?

as far as i could see from those pictures, Rossi was nowhere near Stoner, to have done anything to him, but even if he was very close to him, this is racing and everybody is trying to better his times.
 
Great post as usual. However, may I make a bit of a distinction? I think there is a difference between a "tow" and a "draft". I think a rider following a faster one gets a "tow" when they try to follow and match lines, and if close enough, get a "draft" at the end of the lap on the straight. By Rossi following Stoner around, he in effect got this "tow" because he's 'stealing' (or if you prefer) 'copying' the front rider's lines. I just read a report this, where the writer takes a rather bias take on Stoner, and says Rossi was not close enough to get a "tow". But I contend, following the rider ahead is in effect the same thing, because the trailing rider is using the tactic to get a better lap. The interesting thing is they got identical lap times. So Rossi was able to make a carbon copy of Stoner's lap. So, I'd call it a "tow".



As to the issue of whether it is acceptable or extraordinary for practice. Perhaps not, as you say buddy. It happens all the time and no rule against it, right? Perfectly legal. But we both know both men have commented in the past at their annoyance when somebody has got a "tow” or "followed" them. It is some unspoken rule, right? Since we've heard other riders take issue when being followed as well. I suppose its because these guys are so competitive that they can't stand the thought of somebody else benefiting from what they perceive as their doing (i.e. Rossi's annoyance that Lorenzo was benefiting from 'his' development). So Casey's annoyance is not justified in isolation, since I don't think Rossi has done much "towing" off Stoner. However, I think most of them view this type of tactic as mildly loathsome, a bit dastardly, maybe even cowardly, hence Stoner calling Vale out.



As to the mind game part of this incident, I'd say Stoner was simply annoyed at Rossi for following him, and perhaps he thought Vale was closer to him than the camera showed. Stoner probably thought Rossi was on his heals. And who knows, Rossi may have been trying to keep up. As you say, only Rossi knows. But Stoner decided he was annoyed enough to call Rossi out. And here is where I think it has now annoyed Rossi. Being called out on trying to learn something from Stoner, or "steal" his lines, puts Rossi in the role having to defend himself as not being the master. This cuts deep. That's twice now Stoner has pushed back saying Rossi isn't as talented as him. That ego is taking a big hit, hence why Rossi had to retort with "I think he's forgotten who I am" and now "I don't think Stoner likes me". Its hilarious to be sure, but its also reveals a hit to his ego. Being accused of using this "dirty" tactic hurts because the standard belief is, Rossi doesn't use it or need it, only others get tows from Rossi.



Were Stoner's comments over the top? Yes. In isolation, its a bit harsh. When taken in context of their rivalry and the badgering that Rossi has engaged in with Stoner, not to mention Rossi's history with other riders, well then, it a bit of pushback. Plus Casey has the added standing that Rossi actually punted him at Jerez (though Casey has done a good job of repeatedly saying it was just a racing incident and mistake).



It’s all very hilarious. I had lots of fun with it yesterday, as you could imagine. I won't be surprised if Rossi, if given the chance, will put a hard move on Stoner, lets face it, he has nothing to lose. So yeah, it’s not good to tease a shark. But in the past, Rossi has played the shark as you alluded, he did his fair share of taunting, and it seemed those others folded. Stoner, if nothing else, is at very least standing up for himself, at worst is sounding like Rossi did when he declared his curse on Sete.





EDIT: to add, this all falls right into Lorenzo's hands.





Ok, nice to read your opinion on this finally. and it's not that different from my own opinion. Stoner wasn't happy with Rossi from past and he had to show it somehow.



but the only thing for me as i read it also in the link of a nice read which Kropotkin has posted yesterday, and now you mention it again, I dont think only Rossi knows if he did anything yesterday. how come you and most of us say 1000's of stories from one picture or even from no pictures at all, but now while we saw almost the whole lap, we can't say if Rossi indeed did anything wrong to Stoner or not? and all that while he and Elias changed places. Stoner also tried to provoke Elias from exactly the same pictures that we all saw.



what about "he has always been waiting to get a tow from me" part?

Was he affraid or ashamed to bring this up in the past years?
 
Just had a future flash. Three quarters of the way through the season Simoncelli will take out Lorenzo who'd been convincingly dominant to the point of already having tied up the championship and the remaining races will be all about Stoner and Pedrosa fighting it out for 2nd in the series - both of them competing desperately in order that neither should be edged out of 2nd place by Cannonball Rossi after 10 consecutive 2nd place podiums in 10 consecutive wet races.
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Yes, i was thinking today about this, i even was expecting it today if he hadn't crashed that early and could keep up at front.

Pedrosa will be wishing for this to happen as fast as possible. maybe Mugello.
 
Your reference to sadomasochism seemed completely unconnected to this thread, and I had taken it to be referring back to my previous use of the word schadenfreude when you had replied in these terms. My point is that there is some schadenfeude going on, with people taking some pleasure in rossis's current relative misfortune, but in english idiom the word can be used without it implying sexual deviation, whatever the dictionary definition may be.



I am not looking for rossi to do badly at present, other than wanting stoner to beat him, but while this was not something that should perhaps have caused great offense or warranted any response, I suspect he thinks, and I agree with him, that he is entitled to a few free swings at rossi just at present, or was waiting for any situation to make some complaints about rossi as you say. I repeat, you guys are getting uptight about stoner being impolite to the great one, rossi very recently gratuitously took stoner out with possible severe implications for his championship aspirations.



Since his rookie error in 2006, for which him actually being a rookie could perhaps be taken into account, and which did not involve an over-ambitious passing attempt but crashing whilst ahead of other riders, stoner seems to have been scrupulous about not endangering other riders including rossi, and has never gone close to taking rossi out; from my perspective the same does not apply to rossi.



Context is all.





Thanks for the explanation,



I,m not caring for his doggy comments, as much as i found it childish i believe that's up to Rossi to answer that (i hope on track), what i didn't like in this, that he is acusing Rossi of something he didn't do to Stoner or Elias yesterday, and he isn't only relying on his own muscles, he is using Lorenzo, Elias, and perhaps a few more in coming weeks.



It's not like Rossi has taken a lot of guys out while overtaking, how many times has he crashed like that? As Doohan said these things happen in both ways, if Stoner and Lorenzo haven't done this yet, it's not that late ieder, let's wait a few more years.
 
And at what point does this give Stoner justifiable reason to invent towing accusations? 4 weeks on! This is unbelievably ridiculous, Rossi was at least 30-40 metres behind him and there is no sane person suggesting that Rossi's time somehow benefited from this.



If a measured/strategic approach would have been taken this weekend by Stoner, then there would be no incidents to talk about. Stoner has said enough about the Jerez incident, we all know how he feels about it, so at this stage Stoner has thrown completely unnecessary fuel on the fire with absolutely no justification. Yet somehow you lot continue to blame all this on something that happened 4 weeks ago.......



Did you hear Nicky whinge and carry on like a spoilt brat when he was taken out by a completely out of control Jorge Lorenzo at Phillip Island in 2009 for over a month after it? Did you here Rossi Whinge and carry on for a month after he was taken out at Jerez by Elias in 2006? Nicky didn't even carry on as much as Stoner has now in 2006 when Pedders took him out while leading the championship with 1 round to go.



Stoner is acting like an ....., and its affecting his riding, the question I posed earlier was- How on Earth did he manage to assume that Rossi was getting a tow? Rossi was nowhere near him! Yet by midway through turn 1 Stoner was already turning around and patting his arse, this is absolutely ridiculous baiting and it will ultimately, once again, heavily contribute negatively to Stoner's already poor public persona and also now seemingly his speed, with Dovi the only Factory Honda behind him.



This is the Stoner of old, the Stoner of 2008 and of 2006 that we all know.......the only thing that's changed is that he is worse! Someone needs to get a hold of the guy and smack him around a bit, for doing battle with Rossi and others on track is hard enough, yet trying to invent rubbish off track is not going to get him anywhere, to be honest I'm not surprised. I happened to notice him up to his same old tricks with the Repsol guys, shaking his head well before entering pit lane/garage during FP to make changes, how does this benefit communication to his team? Other than making him look like a .... as he needs an excuse for not posting the quickest time every session......



I'm also not surprised at Jorge baiting Sic to try to steal the show, Jorge's past is certainly not angelic when it comes to this topic, he happened to whinge a lot at Motegi last year too, IMO he's very worried about the hairball for the race and is looking a bit hypocritical..........hopefully the action on track will be even better.





Not to mention his own pass on Pedrosa on last lap last year. He had himself to blame at Estoril 2010, Simonchelli only kept his line. and what a pu$$y to bring it up now, or to crticise the marshals at Jerez.

His take on Simonch maybe even has a bit to do with the romance between him and Stoner.
 
Of course they should have, the point being is that apparently many other teams did the same thing and didn't suffer the punishment, from what I know it was only through a protest from Honda/Sete that the action was taken against the only team for whom the complaint was made against.



From what I've read apparently Max Biaggi's team, the Ducati's and Suzuki's did the same thing, clearing the start posi's of potential sand problems by using scooters to lay rubber on track, however, strangely enough, the only team which evidence was gathered against was the Gauloises Yamaha of Rossi. I seriously doubt that such a ruckus would have been made by the Yamaha team and Rossi if they thought they were genuinely solely guilty of something.



The protest was (from memory) raised by Honda, not necessarily Sete's team either but Honda the manufacturer, but was no doubt raised with the intent of having due punishment meted out .................... as was done.



As for other teams, it is heresay whether other teams did the same practice as Rossi's team (note team as well ........ not VR himself) got caught not the other alleged perpetrators. But from what I recall (again memory) some others were said to 'clean' the sport whereas it was alleged that VR's team laid down rubber or something similar - but again nobody protested about them so they got away with it (rightly or wrongly)





Firstly Rossi had nothing to get over! He won that race by outracing a rider who was clearly faster.



For Stoner its not just Laguna but everything after it, as it is Stoner has yet to recover to compete at that level consistently since. This of course must take a large toll, especially after his, albeit forced by the media, vehement defense of his ability in 2007- only to not reproduce it since.



Hopefully for you guys this may be the case, and its not something worse, as is with delusional incidents like the towing thing (which I note being brushed aside
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) it could be a precursor to more serious problems for him in the mind.......As it stands currently Rossi is back at the sharp end again in tricky conditions in morning warm-up, something which even Rossi fans including myself, didn't really expect so soon after the pre-season......must be hard when someone else is riding the bike, very well, that only 'you' could ride.......Rossi also knows how this feels.



Sorry, but again as you would expect we disagree.



Yes CS has not again risen to the level of consistency he achieved in 2007, which I must say is near unprecedented in terms of the consistency level, but true he has not again gotten close. Does this reflect a failing of the mind (as some attest), a drop in ability levels (as some suggest) or is it simply a reality that times change and people/equipment catch up and surpass - each can make their own assumption.



With regards to Rossi being back at the sharp end, well yes he is in the lading 5-6 riders but if you genuinely believe that VR is happy with that performance than I suspect that you need to think again as despite what he says he would be disgusted and want better. VR is not a person who is comfortable riding around mid-pack as it does not 'gel' with his winners persona so at this stage I am treating all his comments about being 'satisfied/happy' etc as pure bunkum to cover his disappointments. This by the way is not calling VR a liar but placing a level of PR into the picture as you can bet that what gets said behind closed doors will be different to what the media hear.



To date I think saying that VR can ride the bike like CS is a little premature, but yes he can ride the bike better than all others excepting Stoner so in that aspects he is ahead of all other riders, although Haydens podiums of last year are now showing as no mean feat either.



Tim will tell and the jury is out on the rest with regards to the success or other of the move in 2011, certainly I have no doubt that 2012 will be different and far stronger for Team Rossi Ducati.



I also will say that I don't see that CS has a 'mental state' that is causing derogatory results due mainly to what we now know with regards to teh Ducati's rideability and the fact that his year to date results (first/third) have been impacted by being taken out in one race, thus making consistency difficult to judge.









Gaz
 
You really can't resist the straw man approach, can you?



Of what am I falsely accusing rossi? He carried on feuds with biaggi and gibernau which lasted for years, which you are justifying on the basis of incidents which did not cost him anything like 30 points in what were not tight title races in any case ; they potentially affected title bids of rossi's rather than entirely in actuality affecting one of stoner's, so I guess that is different. How does the biaggi incident differ from laguna seca 2008 (other than your imputation of motive) which btw is being brought up by valentino and by you rather than by stoner or me, particularly now that rossi has successfully completed a torpedo on stoner which max never did to rossi? The elias incident obviously still rankles with valentino as well, since he recently mentioned it, not that this is unreasonable, and I ask again are you suggesting that better should not be expected of valentino than elias the well known torpedo artist?



Perhaps I should re-evaluate my opinion of your bias, since you obviously rate stoner more highly than I do; I have never said that stoner is better than rossi, but you must think he is, since you have allotted valentino 6 months or more to "fix" the ducati, but apparently consider stoner to be under-performing by being marginally slower in practice at estoril than lorenzo or pedrosa on a track favoured by both on his first time there with a completely new bike.



I will put 2 smilies this time since you ignored the single one previously, but rossi was about as far behind stoner as when he made his move at jerez, which may have been stoner's point
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If he uses rossi's attitude towards biaggi and gibernau as a guideline I can't see why stoner shouldn't stay annoyed with rossi for much longer than 4 weeks if he so chooses, but due to strange circumstances this race as well as being 4 weeks after the jerez incident is also the next race after that incident .



Enough about the ancient past.....although I know you love it. You've done nothing but bring up invalid points and dwell on them. Stop dodging explain the Towing incident on Friday last week......
 
Great post as usual. However, may I make a bit of a distinction? I think there is a difference between a "tow" and a "draft". I think a rider following a faster one gets a "tow" when they try to follow and match lines, and if close enough, get a "draft" at the end of the lap on the straight. By Rossi following Stoner around, he in effect got this "tow" because he's 'stealing' (or if you prefer) 'copying' the front rider's lines. I just read a report this, where the writer takes a rather bias take on Stoner, and says Rossi was not close enough to get a "tow". But I contend, following the rider ahead is in effect the same thing, because the trailing rider is using the tactic to get a better lap. The interesting thing is they got identical lap times. So Rossi was able to make a carbon copy of Stoner's lap. So, I'd call it a "tow".



As to the issue of whether it is acceptable or extraordinary for practice. Perhaps not, as you say buddy. It happens all the time and no rule against it, right? Perfectly legal. But we both know both men have commented in the past at their annoyance when somebody has got a "tow” or "followed" them. It is some unspoken rule, right? Since we've heard other riders take issue when being followed as well. I suppose its because these guys are so competitive that they can't stand the thought of somebody else benefiting from what they perceive as their doing (i.e. Rossi's annoyance that Lorenzo was benefiting from 'his' development). So Casey's annoyance is not justified in isolation, since I don't think Rossi has done much "towing" off Stoner. However, I think most of them view this type of tactic as mildly loathsome, a bit dastardly, maybe even cowardly, hence Stoner calling Vale out.



As to the mind game part of this incident, I'd say Stoner was simply annoyed at Rossi for following him, and perhaps he thought Vale was closer to him than the camera showed. Stoner probably thought Rossi was on his heals. And who knows, Rossi may have been trying to keep up. As you say, only Rossi knows. But Stoner decided he was annoyed enough to call Rossi out. And here is where I think it has now annoyed Rossi. Being called out on trying to learn something from Stoner, or "steal" his lines, puts Rossi in the role having to defend himself as not being the master. This cuts deep. That's twice now Stoner has pushed back saying Rossi isn't as talented as him. That ego is taking a big hit, hence why Rossi had to retort with "I think he's forgotten who I am" and now "I don't think Stoner likes me". Its hilarious to be sure, but its also reveals a hit to his ego. Being accused of using this "dirty" tactic hurts because the standard belief is, Rossi doesn't use it or need it, only others get tows from Rossi.



Were Stoner's comments over the top? Yes. In isolation, its a bit harsh. When taken in context of their rivalry and the badgering that Rossi has engaged in with Stoner, not to mention Rossi's history with other riders, well then, it a bit of pushback. Plus Casey has the added standing that Rossi actually punted him at Jerez (though Casey has done a good job of repeatedly saying it was just a racing incident and mistake).



It’s all very hilarious. I had lots of fun with it yesterday, as you could imagine. I won't be surprised if Rossi, if given the chance, will put a hard move on Stoner, lets face it, he has nothing to lose. So yeah, it’s not good to tease a shark. But in the past, Rossi has played the shark as you alluded, he did his fair share of taunting, and it seemed those others folded. Stoner, if nothing else, is at very least standing up for himself, at worst is sounding like Rossi did when he declared his curse on Sete.





EDIT: to add, this all falls right into Lorenzo's hands.









i know your trying hard to keep the Rossi bad everyone else good thing going but c'mon dude. Rossi's ego hurt! I don't think this is affecting Rossi at all. Infact i think its Stoner the one who is not happy with Rossi right now. Stoner should concentrate on the trophy and keeping Lorenzo and Peders close.



 
Enough about the ancient past.....although I know you love it. You've done nothing but bring up invalid points and dwell on them. Stop dodging explain the Towing incident on Friday last week......

Invalid points which oddly you can't answer. History is only valid if you bring it up, your entire argument being based on there being different standards for rossi because of history. You are now apparently equipped to make psychiatric diagnoses on motogp riders over the internet/by video, again demonstrating how nonsensical you are.



As I said, stoner seems to have decided to turn rossi's career long tactic back on him. Whether this will be injurious to stoner's riding tim will tell (smart guy, tim), but I don't think that annoying rossi fans of your ilk will greatly concern him, and having been doubtful about this tactic the fact that it is doing so makes me now think it may be a good idea.
 
Invalid points which oddly you can't answer. History is only valid if you bring it up, your entire argument being based on there being different standards for rossi because of history. You are now apparently equipped to make psychiatric diagnoses on motogp riders over the internet/by video, again demonstrating how nonsensical you are.



As I said, stoner seems to have decided to turn rossi's career long tactic back on him. Whether this will be injurious to stoner's riding tim will tell (smart guy, tim), but I don't think that annoying rossi fans of your ilk will greatly concern him, and having been doubtful about this tactic the fact that it is doing so makes me now think it may be a good idea.





Explain the invented towing crap, explain how Rossi could have possibly benefited from being so far behind Stoner? At least if Stoner is going to continue to stir the pot about Jerez make it relevant and not delusional. This was a ....... act.



Yes Rossi was pissed with Elias but not for a month. Yes Rossi engaged in feuds with Biaggi and Gibernau, and won the battles, Biaggi deliberately tried to run Rossi off track which started that, hardly an accident and none of it invented! Gibernau's team was responsible for a very harsh penalty against Rossi, for something that most teams did, which cost Rossi a race he would have probably won in 2004-and it was no accident.



This History makes Stoner's behavior even less acceptable and more ridiculous! Creating false accusations against Rossi isn't really going to do much for Stoner now is it, Casey hasn't proven to be too good at the mind games, and this just confirms his very fragile mental state.



Ahhh actually I did answer them both in my first response......yet you have yet to give a good explanation for Stoners Invented towing accusations, other than it is all Rossi's fault because of Jerez.......and your accusing me of being nonsensical
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Ahhh actually I did answer them both in my first response......yet you have yet to give a good explanation for Stoners Invented towing accusations, other than it is all Rossi's fault because of Jerez.......and your accusing me of being nonsensical
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God you are hard to even bother trying to read ........... so were the towing accusations real or invented? I thought it was pretty well accepted that Stoner was accusing Rossi of towing or following etc. Why are you now saying that the accusations were invented?
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Invented by whom? Rossi? The Boppers? the Italian media?





I think I will go back to my usual dealing of your posts ....... ie. I will read T .... A .....L ....... and thats it the rest will be incoherent drivel .... without fail.
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Don't you pommy kids have school too?
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Mark..Casey..27...No.1.[img said:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img];276005]I am completely impartial myself and pride myself in my balanced view.





Well said ......me too!!





Go Stoner !!!!!





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Welcome by the way.
 
Ahhh actually I did answer them both in my first response......yet you have yet to give a good explanation for Stoners Invented towing accusations, other than it is all Rossi's fault because of Jerez.......and your accusing me of being nonsensical
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If you continue to make psychiatric diagnoses, particularly in the absence of any training or apparent knowledge of medicine, over the internet it will continue to be nonsensical; your medical prognostications concerning stoner have hardly been very successful in the past in any case.



You can continue your attempts to build elaborate constructions around minor events as you did after the last race all you like, the facts will remain that rossi took out stoner with a bone headed and unneccessary move and stoner has never done anything which even risked this to rossi, and the substance of your complaint, fantasies of being equipped to give medical opinions aside, is that stoner is impolite to rossi and does not give him what you consider to be due respect. Tough.
 
You can continue your attempts to build elaborate constructions around minor events as you did after the last race all you like, the facts will remain that rossi took out stoner with a bone headed and unneccessary move and stoner has never done anything which even risked this to rossi, and the substance of your complaint, fantasies of being equipped to give medical opinions aside, is that stoner is impolite to rossi and does not give him what you consider to be due respect. Tough.



Still can't explain eh?



Minor events?.......the guy accused Rossi of lining up for a tow, then followed these accusations with a remarkably egotistical comment on how this non-existent tow that he gave Rossi was the only reason Rossi got a good time, even though Rossi had been posting similar laps all session.......
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Then he went on to call him a dog 'following behind'.......Impolite is the largest understatement I've read for a while.......and all of this after he must have seen the footage, clearly Stoner has something wrong with him.



Of note is how you can just brush aside deliberately inflammatory behavior like this from Stoner of which he created in his head, yet you spend all of time still fuming over an accident that happened 4 weeks ago, of which was not deliberate, for which Stoner received a personal apology, only to throw it back with more ....... comments. Not only this, your justifying idiotic delusional behavior by continuing to cite this accident as an excuse for Stoner to act however he wants
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Not only do you not provide any ration for this behavior, you then try to cite Rossi's History with previous rivals, which was completely irrelevant to the point, as a convenient way to dodge and blur the issue to the point of ignorance.
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And they say boppers are delusional, extremely bias, hypocritical and elitist........



Stoner is cementing his status as the no 1 cockhead in Motogp, which quite obviously doesn't do him any favors as we all watched his teamate flog him, and the field, yesterday on a circuit which neither of them particularly like or have excelled at so you can't use the 'Its not a Stoner Track' excuse.....as I said before, the Stoner we all know was always hiding right under the surface just itching to come out
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As a hypothetical, imagine the reaction if Rossi accused someone of an imaginary tow, and went on the comment and abuse like Stoner did......... OMG, this site would crash for sure.......!
 
Talp,



I seriously hope for the sake of your health that you do not have any of the following in your life.



- A phone number with consecutive 2 and 7 in there forming a 27



- an house number or place of business with 27 in the address, or the same in a Casey or Stoner street/place/court etc



- a registration number for your vehicles that contains 27



- a neighbour, acquaintance or family friend who is as much a Stoner fan as you are a Stoner hater (I apologise here as I cannot find a word that describes a greater dislike of a person as I do feel that hatred does not do justice in this case)



- any product linked to Stoner by sponsorship (and only to him)



- any person in your life who has the surname Stoner (just in case they are a relation)











Gaz
 
As a hypothetical, imagine the reaction if Rossi accused someone of an imaginary tow, and went on the comment and abuse like Stoner did......... OMG, this site would crash for sure.......!



Hypothetical .............. well ok.



Of course it would crash.



On one hand we would have the Yellow Army telling us that the rider was indeed getting a tow, following like a dog etc etc and that Rossi was entirely correct and justified as whilst the second rider had not yet left pit lane, there was the reality that he/she wanted to tail/track Rossi to get that tow. Further, these same army members would be telling us that Rossi's patting of the tailpiece was to tell the rider (still in pit lane) to get off his arse and do the time themselves, or that VR was merely warming his hand as it was a cold day in hell.





On the other hand there would be people saying that the rider in pit lane was to far behind to tail/track and obtain a tow and that VR's patting of the bike was him ensuring that the bike would stay together given it was the shoestring budgeted Ducati.







You cannot seriously say that the results would be different were your hypothetical scenario in force as I would say they would be exactly the same just with many of the same people espousing different views, hypothetically speaking of course
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Gaz
 
Don't you pommy kids have school too?
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Isn't Talpa from Aus?



As a hypothetical, imagine the reaction if Rossi accused someone of an imaginary tow, and went on the comment and abuse like Stoner did......... OMG, this site would crash for sure.......!

It did happen. No one cared. John Hopkins. Five or six years ago. I was here. No one cared.
 

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