Estoril MotoGP: Rossi and Stoner clash again
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Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
RCV, we had this debate already. You lost, remember?
What with everybody going green - he's just doing his bit by recycling.
Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Great post as usual. However, may I make a bit of a distinction? I think there is a difference between a "tow" and a "draft". I think a rider following a faster one gets a "tow" when they try to follow and match lines, and if close enough, get a "draft" at the end of the lap on the straight. By Rossi following Stoner around, he in effect got this "tow" because he's 'stealing' (or if you prefer) 'copying' the front rider's lines. I just read a report this, where the writer takes a rather bias take on Stoner, and says Rossi was not close enough to get a "tow". But I contend, following the rider ahead is in effect the same thing, because the trailing rider is using the tactic to get a better lap. The interesting thing is they got identical lap times. So Rossi was able to make a carbon copy of Stoner's lap. So, I'd call it a "tow".
As to the issue of whether it is acceptable or extraordinary for practice. Perhaps not, as you say buddy. It happens all the time and no rule against it, right? Perfectly legal. But we both know both men have commented in the past at their annoyance when somebody has got a "tow” or "followed" them. It is some unspoken rule, right? Since we've heard other riders take issue when being followed as well. I suppose its because these guys are so competitive that they can't stand the thought of somebody else benefiting from what they perceive as their doing (i.e. Rossi's annoyance that Lorenzo was benefiting from 'his' development). So Casey's annoyance is not justified in isolation, since I don't think Rossi has done much "towing" off Stoner. However, I think most of them view this type of tactic as mildly loathsome, a bit dastardly, maybe even cowardly, hence Stoner calling Vale out.
As to the mind game part of this incident, I'd say Stoner was simply annoyed at Rossi for following him, and perhaps he thought Vale was closer to him than the camera showed. Stoner probably thought Rossi was on his heals. And who knows, Rossi may have been trying to keep up. As you say, only Rossi knows. But Stoner decided he was annoyed enough to call Rossi out. And here is where I think it has now annoyed Rossi. Being called out on trying to learn something from Stoner, or "steal" his lines, puts Rossi in the role having to defend himself as not being the master. This cuts deep. That's twice now Stoner has pushed back saying Rossi isn't as talented as him. That ego is taking a big hit, hence why Rossi had to retort with "I think he's forgotten who I am" and now "I don't think Stoner likes me". Its hilarious to be sure, but its also reveals a hit to his ego. Being accused of using this "dirty" tactic hurts because the standard belief is, Rossi doesn't use it or need it, only others get tows from Rossi.
Were Stoner's comments over the top? Yes. In isolation, its a bit harsh. When taken in context of their rivalry and the badgering that Rossi has engaged in with Stoner, not to mention Rossi's history with other riders, well then, it a bit of pushback. Plus Casey has the added standing that Rossi actually punted him at Jerez (though Casey has done a good job of repeatedly saying it was just a racing incident and mistake).
It’s all very hilarious. I had lots of fun with it yesterday, as you could imagine. I won't be surprised if Rossi, if given the chance, will put a hard move on Stoner, lets face it, he has nothing to lose. So yeah, it’s not good to tease a shark. But in the past, Rossi has played the shark as you alluded, he did his fair share of taunting, and it seemed those others folded. Stoner, if nothing else, is at very least standing up for himself, at worst is sounding like Rossi did when he declared his curse on Sete.
EDIT: to add, this all falls right into Lorenzo's hands.
Joined Oct 2006
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Your Mom's House
Joined Mar 2005
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Woody Creek
First part, dead on. It's happening in every session, someone follows someone. It happening on a regular occurrence should mean that riders are used to it and shouldn't be too bothered. But the fact is, they do get upset. I forget the year, wanna say 2005, maybe 2006, Rossi had a go at Hopkins for doing the same thing. And that's a guy who, no offense to John, didn't have a chance to threaten Valentino considering the Suzuki was a good way from being competitive and the Bridgestones were only dangerous in the most opportune of circumstances.
Going on your second part, I think you might have a point. Rossi being accused of something he accused John Hopkins circa 2005 of, and Hector Barbera is regularly accused of, and it doesn't look good on Rossi. In my opinion, he seems rather defensive. The Rossi of old would've dismissed this accusation, not replying by saying Stoner hasn't gotten over Laguna or that Stoner has been waiting to publicly rub Rossi's nose in his slow adaptation to the Ducati.
In my opinion, Rossi seems rattled and it's probably down to a number of things, Stoner being one of them. On the flip side, it's hard to say Rossi isn't in Stoner's head. Rossi is a non-factor for the championship this season, yet Stoner continually prods. You'd have to say he's not focusing on Lorenzo and Pedrosa at the moment, but Stoner's never had a problem going fast regardless of what's happening in the media. Then again, he's never played the bully before.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Just had a future flash. Three quarters of the way through the season Simoncelli will take out Lorenzo who'd been convincingly dominant to the point of already having tied up the championship and the remaining races will be all about Stoner and Pedrosa fighting it out for 2nd in the series - both of them competing desperately in order that neither should be edged out of 2nd place by Cannonball Rossi after 10 consecutive 2nd place podiums in 10 consecutive wet races.
The more Stoner and Rossi whine, the more I like Simoncelli...
And for the record, the are BOTH whining a lot.
And for the record, the are BOTH whining a lot.
RCV, we had this debate already. You lost, remember?
Haha, where was that discussion again?
Your reference to sadomasochism seemed completely unconnected to this thread, and I had taken it to be referring back to my previous use of the word schadenfreude when you had replied in these terms. My point is that there is some schadenfeude going on, with people taking some pleasure in rossis's current relative misfortune, but in english idiom the word can be used without it implying sexual deviation, whatever the dictionary definition may be.
I am not looking for rossi to do badly at present, other than wanting stoner to beat him, but while this was not something that should perhaps have caused great offense or warranted any response, I suspect he thinks, and I agree with him, that he is entitled to a few free swings at rossi just at present, or was waiting for any situation to make some complaints about rossi as you say. I repeat, you guys are getting uptight about stoner being impolite to the great one, rossi very recently gratuitously took stoner out with possible severe implications for his championship aspirations.
Since his rookie error in 2006, for which him actually being a rookie could perhaps be taken into account, and which did not involve an over-ambitious passing attempt but crashing whilst ahead of other riders, stoner seems to have been scrupulous about not endangering other riders including rossi, and has never gone close to taking rossi out; from my perspective the same does not apply to rossi.
Context is all.
This would make a lot of sense if Rossi hadn't been ahead of Stoner in lap times up to that point. Go look at the lap times, why get a tow from a guy you had 3-4 tenths on the entire session. Rossi improved his time by a tenth and Stoner improved his time by 3-4 tenths. I'm sure they both new their own times before they started the hot lap so I think Rossi did it on purpose to aggravate Stoner. It may have back fired because he could have been intending to pass him or ride his ... knowing up to that point Stoner had been slower, but Stoner being Stoner turned it into a big issue instead of being happy that Rossi wasn't able to actually mess around with him on that lap. Now he has some very inconsistant lap times for the weekend. He better hope they find something in the morning because Jlo's lap times are solid, he has the pace, and Sic and Pedro can keep him off the big points if they hold up. I'd like to see Pedro get the hole shot and hold Jlo and Sic back for a little while so we get some good racing.
As far as Stoner standing up to Rossi that is a moot point, no one remembers you for that, at the end of the day these guys are here for the title, not to play patty cakes with Rossi who is over a second off the pace. Yes lets cheer on Stoner, arguably the most talented rider on the grid pissing away a valuable year of his career and insuring that the Honda stays to Pedros liking.
A season which he was approaching in a very measured and strategic fashion till your boy took him out last race, an incident in which stoner is apparently the bad guy because he was angered by it; I am sure anyone else in the field would have considered it a signal honour to be taken out by rossi.
I am not too sure what to make of qualifying other than that lorenzo is very good. This has never been stoner's track, but I agree pedrosa has looked better than him overall although their best times are close , but then pedrosa is very good also and this is a favourite track for him. I don't think anyone is claiming stoner is so good that he will be faster than pedrosa on any track; rossi wasn't faster than lorenzo on every track even in winning the championship when uninjured in 2009.
funny to see abrahams upset and waving his arms everywhere when stoner passed him hahahah what do you expect when your riding 2seconds a lap slower ... sheesh
And at what point does this give Stoner justifiable reason to invent towing accusations? 4 weeks on! This is unbelievably ridiculous, Rossi was at least 30-40 metres behind him and there is no sane person suggesting that Rossi's time somehow benefited from this.
If a measured/strategic approach would have been taken this weekend by Stoner, then there would be no incidents to talk about. Stoner has said enough about the Jerez incident, we all know how he feels about it, so at this stage Stoner has thrown completely unnecessary fuel on the fire with absolutely no justification. Yet somehow you lot continue to blame all this on something that happened 4 weeks ago.......
Did you hear Nicky whinge and carry on like a spoilt brat when he was taken out by a completely out of control Jorge Lorenzo at Phillip Island in 2009 for over a month after it? Did you here Rossi Whinge and carry on for a month after he was taken out at Jerez by Elias in 2006? Nicky didn't even carry on as much as Stoner has now in 2006 when Pedders took him out while leading the championship with 1 round to go.
Stoner is acting like an ....., and its affecting his riding, the question I posed earlier was- How on Earth did he manage to assume that Rossi was getting a tow? Rossi was nowhere near him! Yet by midway through turn 1 Stoner was already turning around and patting his arse, this is absolutely ridiculous baiting and it will ultimately, once again, heavily contribute negatively to Stoner's already poor public persona and also now seemingly his speed, with Dovi the only Factory Honda behind him.
This is the Stoner of old, the Stoner of 2008 and of 2006 that we all know.......the only thing that's changed is that he is worse! Someone needs to get a hold of the guy and smack him around a bit, for doing battle with Rossi and others on track is hard enough, yet trying to invent rubbish off track is not going to get him anywhere, to be honest I'm not surprised. I happened to notice him up to his same old tricks with the Repsol guys, shaking his head well before entering pit lane/garage during FP to make changes, how does this benefit communication to his team? Other than making him look like a .... as he needs an excuse for not posting the quickest time every session......
I'm also not surprised at Jorge baiting Sic to try to steal the show, Jorge's past is certainly not angelic when it comes to this topic, he happened to whinge a lot at Motegi last year too, IMO he's very worried about the hairball for the race and is looking a bit hypocritical..........hopefully the action on track will be even better.
Interesting take there Hawk.
You say that Rossi potentially did the slow down - let CS past - accelerate immediately to aggravate Stoner (personally by the way - I see it that way otherwise I suspect he would have waited until well after Elias had gone to get back onto the pace).
But you then allude to Stoner being in the wrong for making an issue of it?
If one person does an act to aggravate is it wrong to respond?
For mine, neither CS or VR did anything wrong, untoward or illegal either on track or off it, as what both did was pure gamesmanship - (IMO) no more, no less.
Gaz
Stoner's pace is due to him trying to wind back the electronics so he has more control in his wrist. Dani is not trying to do this nor is Sic as they both use approx. the same level of electronics as the rest and therefore they are free to largely carry on with a normal race weekend set up strategy and pursue fast times. Stoner commented that his electronics guy (the only guy in Stoners team that did not follow him) is resisting his requests to do this. In contrast over at Ducati they are trying to wind up the electronics to calm everything down.
This brings me to my next point in regards to your post. You continue to bleat on about Stoners relationship with his team however his whole Italian team switched to Honda with him. How do you reconcile this with this fantasy of yours that Stoner can't communicate with his team? Surely these guys would have taken the opportunity to all go elsewhere or tried to stay on at Ducati if they so detested Stoner as you like to try to promote?
follow here little doggie.. here doggie. hahhaha
if rossi had of done the same thing everyone would of been saying oh what personality and cheek, great for the sport.
the only people getting there nickers in a knot are your pansies on a forum who never ridden more than vespa
if rossi had of done the same thing everyone would of been saying oh what personality and cheek, great for the sport.
the only people getting there nickers in a knot are your pansies on a forum who never ridden more than vespa
Stoner was bit aggressive in practice when he rode Ducati too. He spends most of the time in the pit to fix the bike and made a few quick laps only. He was often provocative to the other riders who followed him. It is not a new thing. But, I see the pattern here. Stoner is now the worst enemy of Rossi, surpassing Lorenzo, so the yellow fans want to criticize him for anything even they had overlooked in the past.
As for Simoncelli-Lorenzo thing, it is the racing commissioner’s job to give a warning, but are they functioning? I don`t remember exactly which year, but Tamada was disqualified at Motegi after knocking down Gibernau several years ago. It looked like a racing accident to me. Sic complained about the weight advantage, but his size is clear advantage at the close battle, so he should stop complaining too.
As for Simoncelli-Lorenzo thing, it is the racing commissioner’s job to give a warning, but are they functioning? I don`t remember exactly which year, but Tamada was disqualified at Motegi after knocking down Gibernau several years ago. It looked like a racing accident to me. Sic complained about the weight advantage, but his size is clear advantage at the close battle, so he should stop complaining too.
There is a little thing called a race to go this week-end till an assessment can be made about whether stoner's riding has been significantly affected.
You also make my point for me; the fact that it was rossi who took stoner out rather than elias is rather the point, even we incredibly biased stoner fans think rossi is a little better than tony elias, and nicky was not in contention for the world championship; my powers of observation obviously don't approach yours, but he looked a little annoyed in a more analogous situation when he was taken out by pedrosa in 2006 but heroically restrained himself. I also don't think anyone would claim that stoner is as calm or as nice a bloke as nicky, but that is rather beside the point. I don't recall rossi being all that serene about being taken out by elias either. I do recall rossi engaging in feuds with biaggi and gibernau, who never took him out, which lasted for years but I guess that's different
Just as an aside, how do you think lorenzo, the only other rider who has been consistently competitive against rossi, which might make some (obviously very biased) observers think he is not entirely in the category of being unworthy to touch the hem of rossi's garment, would have reacted to being taken out like stoner?
You also frequently claim that stoner never learns from experience, but now criticise him for doing so; going by recent events having rossi 40 metres or more behind you is quite a risky situation
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