<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alex29 @ Apr 1 2009, 09:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Right person, right bike, right time...
i'll go with that .
i'll go with that .
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 1 2009, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Laguna 2008 is a short and strong argument for your point of view but there was also catalunya 2007, and one of the wet races in 2007 (?donnington) when stoner was shuffled back to 7th or worse early in the first lap.
Laguna was a turning point in the 2008 season.
Maybe Stoner would have been champ if the outcome at Laguna was reversed ???
That was probably one of the best rides I've ever seen from Rossi on a bike that was seriously outpaced by the Duc. Stoner was pissed, because he expected to win, and everyone else expected him to win. Both he and Rossi knew the 2008 season probably hung on that race. That race showed why Rossi is still the king.
If Stoner had pushed him without trying to overtake, I think Rossi would have run out of tyres anyway.
There has been some other really good fights between them though, with te outcome going both ways. I think the best we can hope for this years is more really good racing between Rossi and Stoner.
The best the other riders can hope for is third.
Laguna was a turning point in the 2008 season.
Maybe Stoner would have been champ if the outcome at Laguna was reversed ???
That was probably one of the best rides I've ever seen from Rossi on a bike that was seriously outpaced by the Duc. Stoner was pissed, because he expected to win, and everyone else expected him to win. Both he and Rossi knew the 2008 season probably hung on that race. That race showed why Rossi is still the king.
If Stoner had pushed him without trying to overtake, I think Rossi would have run out of tyres anyway.
There has been some other really good fights between them though, with te outcome going both ways. I think the best we can hope for this years is more really good racing between Rossi and Stoner.
The best the other riders can hope for is third.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mjpartyboy @ Apr 1 2009, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Were these same questions being asked about Rossi during his early Honda days?
of course they were. not on this forum cos it didn't exist but there have always been anti rossi and anti honda race fans who said the rc211v was a far superier bike bla bla which it was but max couldnt win on it ! even after rossi and max swapped bikes
of course they were. not on this forum cos it didn't exist but there have always been anti rossi and anti honda race fans who said the rc211v was a far superier bike bla bla which it was but max couldnt win on it ! even after rossi and max swapped bikes
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 1 2009, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Laguna 2008 is a short and strong argument for your point of view but there was also catalunya 2007, and one of the wet races in 2007 (?donnington) when stoner was shuffled back to 7th or worse early in the first lap.
yachh in wet race everything can happen in the wet race
yachh in wet race everything can happen in the wet race
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Apr 1 2009, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it's neither.
I agree its the TC
I agree its the TC
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 1 2009, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's interesting to me, too.
At the end of last year, Dorna went out of their way to emphasize that the new tire rule was actually one-make and not control. The engineers have been telling Ezy to back off, and Bridgestone have been less than impressed with his meddling in the tire affair of 2007.
I was certain that the new tire would be a control, but after seeing the improvement in times, I'm convinced that the tire is more likely a one make like Dorna stated. Bridgestone are obviously still developing, and if I were them, I'd certainly beat a path back to the doorstep where everything began.
I'm certain they've been testing lots of compounds for this upcoming season, it wouldn't surprise me if Bridgestones final selections for construction and compound are relatively similar to Stoner's preferences.
BTW, has anyone noticed that DORNA significantly changed the tire rules for 2009 but Bridgestone has not had a chance to test their new tires at all of the circuits? No one seems worried.
That's beating a dead horse, but at least I'm not the one who killed it.
If Bridgestone are making a Ducati-biased tyre, then you should explain why it does not work for all Ducatis...
At the end of last year, Dorna went out of their way to emphasize that the new tire rule was actually one-make and not control. The engineers have been telling Ezy to back off, and Bridgestone have been less than impressed with his meddling in the tire affair of 2007.
I was certain that the new tire would be a control, but after seeing the improvement in times, I'm convinced that the tire is more likely a one make like Dorna stated. Bridgestone are obviously still developing, and if I were them, I'd certainly beat a path back to the doorstep where everything began.
I'm certain they've been testing lots of compounds for this upcoming season, it wouldn't surprise me if Bridgestones final selections for construction and compound are relatively similar to Stoner's preferences.
BTW, has anyone noticed that DORNA significantly changed the tire rules for 2009 but Bridgestone has not had a chance to test their new tires at all of the circuits? No one seems worried.
That's beating a dead horse, but at least I'm not the one who killed it.
If Bridgestone are making a Ducati-biased tyre, then you should explain why it does not work for all Ducatis...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 2 2009, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Bridgestone are making a Ducati-biased tyre, then you should explain why it does not work for all Ducatis...
Only after you explain to me how I am supposed to interpret data from an experiment with multiple independent variables
Only after you explain to me how I am supposed to interpret data from an experiment with multiple independent variables
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alex29 @ Apr 1 2009, 09:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Right person, right bike, right time...
I agree on right person,right bike/tires package etc.Also right time if you referr to the 800's.
I think right person is maybe the biggest thing though.As he still is ahead of the other Duc riders by a long way.
I don't think Stoner ever has stopped riding with a kind of modified 250 style since he was competing there.
Has too much speed into corners as he had tons of front slips in 2006 and did it twice in 2008.
Plus,i think he started riding the Ducati with a blank mind ready to adapt to 100%with this great opportunity given to him.A combination of fearlessness and a great determination to change what is needed.That's why i think Kallio is going to go a long way on the Ducati if he doesn't get too injured.
Maybe Hayden too if he can forget and start over and adapt.Another reason why Capirossi and Melandri didn't gel could be because they never let go of their frontwheel style:
There was an interview with Kallio in the latest issue of a Swedish magazine called "BIKE" www.bike.se
Kallio said he is a front weel rider,braking late and has very high speed into the turn.He sais he can't do that with the Ducati and has to change his style.
I agree on right person,right bike/tires package etc.Also right time if you referr to the 800's.
I think right person is maybe the biggest thing though.As he still is ahead of the other Duc riders by a long way.
I don't think Stoner ever has stopped riding with a kind of modified 250 style since he was competing there.
Has too much speed into corners as he had tons of front slips in 2006 and did it twice in 2008.
Plus,i think he started riding the Ducati with a blank mind ready to adapt to 100%with this great opportunity given to him.A combination of fearlessness and a great determination to change what is needed.That's why i think Kallio is going to go a long way on the Ducati if he doesn't get too injured.
Maybe Hayden too if he can forget and start over and adapt.Another reason why Capirossi and Melandri didn't gel could be because they never let go of their frontwheel style:
There was an interview with Kallio in the latest issue of a Swedish magazine called "BIKE" www.bike.se
Kallio said he is a front weel rider,braking late and has very high speed into the turn.He sais he can't do that with the Ducati and has to change his style.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 2 2009, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Only after you explain to me how I am supposed to interpret data from an experiment with multiple independent variables
C'mon Lex... neither your nor I have any data to interpret here...
And never will. Amen.
But logic still exists, so don't try to escape it:
If you say that
1) the current Bridgestones given out to all teams are actually made for the Ducati, then it is up to you to explain why
2) only Stoner's Ducati is fast.
C'mon Lex... neither your nor I have any data to interpret here...
And never will. Amen.
But logic still exists, so don't try to escape it:
If you say that
1) the current Bridgestones given out to all teams are actually made for the Ducati, then it is up to you to explain why
2) only Stoner's Ducati is fast.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 3 2009, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>C'mon Lex... neither your nor I have any data to interpret here...
And never will. Amen.
But logic still exists, so don't try to escape it:
If you say that
1) the current Bridgestones given out to all teams are actually made for the Ducati, then it is up to you to explain why
2) only Stoner's Ducati is fast.
Bridgestone would be paying millions to be in MotoGP.
Why are Bridgestone in MotoGP......... to promote their products and sell more tyres.
They want to make a tyre that EVERYONE has good things to say about. The average punter hears all good things about the tyres, and goes and buys Bridgestone.
If the riders bag the .... out of the tyres (like Michelin in 2008) that does not promote the product and sell more tyres.
We all know that the tyres that Freddie Brown buys for his 3 year old R6 are nothing like GP tyres, BUT, if all the GP gurus are saying Michelin are ...., and Bridgestone are the goods.... ole mate Freddie Brown's R6 is likely to be wearing a shiney new set of B'Stones.
If Bridgestone makes tyres specifically suited to one bike (which I don't think they do), all the other riiders who feel disadvantaged will bag the .... out of Bridgestone, and Freddie buys Dunlop.
I think B'stone are trying to make a good tyre, generally suited to all the bikes.
And never will. Amen.
But logic still exists, so don't try to escape it:
If you say that
1) the current Bridgestones given out to all teams are actually made for the Ducati, then it is up to you to explain why
2) only Stoner's Ducati is fast.
Bridgestone would be paying millions to be in MotoGP.
Why are Bridgestone in MotoGP......... to promote their products and sell more tyres.
They want to make a tyre that EVERYONE has good things to say about. The average punter hears all good things about the tyres, and goes and buys Bridgestone.
If the riders bag the .... out of the tyres (like Michelin in 2008) that does not promote the product and sell more tyres.
We all know that the tyres that Freddie Brown buys for his 3 year old R6 are nothing like GP tyres, BUT, if all the GP gurus are saying Michelin are ...., and Bridgestone are the goods.... ole mate Freddie Brown's R6 is likely to be wearing a shiney new set of B'Stones.
If Bridgestone makes tyres specifically suited to one bike (which I don't think they do), all the other riiders who feel disadvantaged will bag the .... out of Bridgestone, and Freddie buys Dunlop.
I think B'stone are trying to make a good tyre, generally suited to all the bikes.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 3 2009, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>C'mon Lex... neither your nor I have any data to interpret here...
And never will. Amen.
But logic still exists, so don't try to escape it:
If you say that
1) the current Bridgestones given out to all teams are actually made for the Ducati, then it is up to you to explain why
2) only Stoner's Ducati is fast.
this is how i think it is.
1. ducati have been with bridgestones for a number of years in motogp, most of there data will be what they have gathered with ducati.... naturally that will be the bike that spec tyre will work best on at the moment until they gather more data from other manufacturers, like they have been in the tests.... the tyres will work on a ducati better but not from foul play nor will they be specially made for stoner it will be just because they have the most data from ducati.
After last season they will have a bit of data from the rubber they having been running on rossi's yamaha, for example If it was michelin making the spec tyre then that would be more sutied to the yamaha's honda's kwaks and zooks in the beginning because how are they supposed to make a tyre with ducati included if they have been running bridgestone rubber and have no data?. so yes ducati will have the edge for this season and also rossi slightly until race data from everyone has been gathered.
2. and for this answer i would say stoner's ducati is so fast because he is the best rider ducati have ever had.
And never will. Amen.
But logic still exists, so don't try to escape it:
If you say that
1) the current Bridgestones given out to all teams are actually made for the Ducati, then it is up to you to explain why
2) only Stoner's Ducati is fast.
this is how i think it is.
1. ducati have been with bridgestones for a number of years in motogp, most of there data will be what they have gathered with ducati.... naturally that will be the bike that spec tyre will work best on at the moment until they gather more data from other manufacturers, like they have been in the tests.... the tyres will work on a ducati better but not from foul play nor will they be specially made for stoner it will be just because they have the most data from ducati.
After last season they will have a bit of data from the rubber they having been running on rossi's yamaha, for example If it was michelin making the spec tyre then that would be more sutied to the yamaha's honda's kwaks and zooks in the beginning because how are they supposed to make a tyre with ducati included if they have been running bridgestone rubber and have no data?. so yes ducati will have the edge for this season and also rossi slightly until race data from everyone has been gathered.
2. and for this answer i would say stoner's ducati is so fast because he is the best rider ducati have ever had.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Apr 2 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>this is how i think it is.
1. ducati have been with bridgestones for a number of years in motogp, most of there data will be what they have gathered with ducati.... naturally that will be the bike that spec tyre will work best on at the moment until they gather more data from other manufacturers, like they have been in the tests.... the tyres will work on a ducati better but not from foul play nor will they be specially made for stoner it will be just because they have the most data from ducati.
After last season they will have a bit of data from the rubber they having been running on rossi's yamaha, for example If it was michelin making the spec tyre then that would be more sutied to the yamaha's honda's kwaks and zooks in the beginning because how are they supposed to make a tyre with ducati included if they have been running bridgestone rubber and have no data?. so yes ducati will have a slight edge for this season and also rossi slightly until race data from everyone has been gathered.
Winner winner chicken dinner.
Bridgestone are not trying to develop a tire that works well with all bikes b/c they would certainly end up with a tire that doesn't work particularly well on any bike.
Prior to the tire debacle, Bridgestone were perfectly content with their relationship with Casey Stoner and Ducati. They had won easily and all parties involved were probably ready to start minting championship trophies at Michelin's expense. If you believe what Rossi says about Stoner's tire selections during 2007, Casey runs harder constructions than everyone else; including other Bridgstone runners.
Given how erratic the new 2007 tires were, I think it's fair to say they were experimental. They worked extremely well at many circuits and relatively poorly at others, but when they worked they could not be beaten by anything Michelin had to offer.
In 2006 at Estoril, Bridgestone had one of the worst performances ever in the 990 era. During 2007 they made enormous improvement and then in 2008 they felt they needed to issue a press release to let everyone know they were going to be terrible again. I wonder what data they were looking at when they made that assessment.
I have maintained since the beginning that whatever magic carcass construction was in the 2007 tires has been banned in one of the backroom negotiations. Obviously, those tires worked to devastating effect and further refinement of their revolutionary but erratic experimental technology would probably have seen exponential performance gains during the 800cc era.
If I were Bridgestone I would be doing everything in my power to recreate the performance characteristics of that tire. Recreating the tire that ended prototyping will lead Bridgestone to one place.
1. ducati have been with bridgestones for a number of years in motogp, most of there data will be what they have gathered with ducati.... naturally that will be the bike that spec tyre will work best on at the moment until they gather more data from other manufacturers, like they have been in the tests.... the tyres will work on a ducati better but not from foul play nor will they be specially made for stoner it will be just because they have the most data from ducati.
After last season they will have a bit of data from the rubber they having been running on rossi's yamaha, for example If it was michelin making the spec tyre then that would be more sutied to the yamaha's honda's kwaks and zooks in the beginning because how are they supposed to make a tyre with ducati included if they have been running bridgestone rubber and have no data?. so yes ducati will have a slight edge for this season and also rossi slightly until race data from everyone has been gathered.
Winner winner chicken dinner.
Bridgestone are not trying to develop a tire that works well with all bikes b/c they would certainly end up with a tire that doesn't work particularly well on any bike.
Prior to the tire debacle, Bridgestone were perfectly content with their relationship with Casey Stoner and Ducati. They had won easily and all parties involved were probably ready to start minting championship trophies at Michelin's expense. If you believe what Rossi says about Stoner's tire selections during 2007, Casey runs harder constructions than everyone else; including other Bridgstone runners.
Given how erratic the new 2007 tires were, I think it's fair to say they were experimental. They worked extremely well at many circuits and relatively poorly at others, but when they worked they could not be beaten by anything Michelin had to offer.
In 2006 at Estoril, Bridgestone had one of the worst performances ever in the 990 era. During 2007 they made enormous improvement and then in 2008 they felt they needed to issue a press release to let everyone know they were going to be terrible again. I wonder what data they were looking at when they made that assessment.
I have maintained since the beginning that whatever magic carcass construction was in the 2007 tires has been banned in one of the backroom negotiations. Obviously, those tires worked to devastating effect and further refinement of their revolutionary but erratic experimental technology would probably have seen exponential performance gains during the 800cc era.
If I were Bridgestone I would be doing everything in my power to recreate the performance characteristics of that tire. Recreating the tire that ended prototyping will lead Bridgestone to one place.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 3 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>everyone is on the same tires and the same ....... are still moaning about tires
Its a control tyre not a spec tyre .......
Its a control tyre not a spec tyre .......
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 3 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>everyone is on the same tires and the same ....... are still moaning about tires
wow ....... now.....never knew you turned gangster? what happend to the ladyboy theme?
wow ....... now.....never knew you turned gangster? what happend to the ladyboy theme?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Apr 1 2009, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The best the other riders can hope for is third.
You got it, everyone else is a spectator, it's the Casey and Vale show, just like last year.
Casey and Vale will have a drink in their camelbak, everyone else will have popcorn fed into their mouth just to remind them of this
You got it, everyone else is a spectator, it's the Casey and Vale show, just like last year.
Casey and Vale will have a drink in their camelbak, everyone else will have popcorn fed into their mouth just to remind them of this
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Apr 8 2009, 06:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You got it, everyone else is a spectator, it's the Casey and Vale show, just like last year.
Casey and Vale will have a drink in their camelbak, everyone else will have popcorn fed into their mouth just to remind them of this
I don't see anyone else in the mix week in week out either Andy.
Stoner has a point to prove, he wants another title badly, and Rossi has nothing to prove, but is still so driven to keep racing. I'll be very surpised if anyone else in in there with them regularly. And Stoner is mental fast as ever, and Rossi is Rossi!
I would like to see Jorge bag a few wins, and I believe he is more than capable. Be nice to see Chris V get another couple in the bag too, but I think he could need a big handfull of luck or a tropical monsoon or 2 to run up front with any regularity.
Pete
Casey and Vale will have a drink in their camelbak, everyone else will have popcorn fed into their mouth just to remind them of this
I don't see anyone else in the mix week in week out either Andy.
Stoner has a point to prove, he wants another title badly, and Rossi has nothing to prove, but is still so driven to keep racing. I'll be very surpised if anyone else in in there with them regularly. And Stoner is mental fast as ever, and Rossi is Rossi!
I would like to see Jorge bag a few wins, and I believe he is more than capable. Be nice to see Chris V get another couple in the bag too, but I think he could need a big handfull of luck or a tropical monsoon or 2 to run up front with any regularity.
Pete
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 8 2009, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't see anyone else in the mix week in week out either Andy.
Stoner has a point to prove, he wants another title badly, and Rossi has nothing to prove, but is still so driven to keep racing. I'll be very surpised if anyone else in in there with them regularly. And Stoner is mental fast as ever, and Rossi is Rossi!
I would like to see Jorge bag a few wins, and I believe he is more than capable. Be nice to see Chris V get another couple in the bag too, but I think he could need a big handfull of luck or a tropical monsoon or 2 to run up front with any regularity.
Pete
I would like to see LCR grab a win, or just beat HRC.
Their no. 2 rider is my new favorite rider
Stoner has a point to prove, he wants another title badly, and Rossi has nothing to prove, but is still so driven to keep racing. I'll be very surpised if anyone else in in there with them regularly. And Stoner is mental fast as ever, and Rossi is Rossi!
I would like to see Jorge bag a few wins, and I believe he is more than capable. Be nice to see Chris V get another couple in the bag too, but I think he could need a big handfull of luck or a tropical monsoon or 2 to run up front with any regularity.
Pete
I would like to see LCR grab a win, or just beat HRC.
Their no. 2 rider is my new favorite rider
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