Dovi not pulling any punches

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MdubSTYLIE said:
Alright I'll come back but this is just a test. I may post in a race thread or two but thats it, I'm not coming back full time. .... you Mediaps I hate you. Lets go fishing bro.
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So do you want a wildcard appearance with that test or are you happy to let everyone else think you want a wildcard appearance but are just happy to keep testing, in an engineering fashion :D
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
None of us could ever imagine the amount of pressure it is to be a motogp champion. But some have a better clue than others of what its like to be a world champion. And that knowledge could never be passed down.
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"As it happens" (to coin a phrase) several of my family are/have been elite athletes by pretty much any standard, not that I got any of those genes.

I specifically raised this issue with my brother, not one of those to whom I refer, but a highly intelligent man and a keen fan of motorsports if not quite as obsessed as I am with gp bike racing, when I was debating the Lorenzo hating French motorcycle courier. He without prompting immediately said what I thought he would, that the French guy claiming his experience allowed him to judge the likes of Jorge Lorenzo would be like him critiquing Usain Bolt's training methods and running style on the basis of having been a 10.5 second 100 metre runner, which he was with virtually no training as a 17 year old schoolboy. Instead his perspective makes him consider what Bolt does to be even more inexplicably extraordinary.
 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
None of us could ever imagine the amount of pressure it is to be a motogp champion. But some have a better clue than others of what its like to be a world champion. And that knowledge could never be passed down.
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In all honesty as well Dubs, I doubt if much of the explanation of the mental side required at the truly elite could ever be understood by us mere mortals, never mind it being passed down.

I say that as each their own and what works for one will not for for another and so forth plus of course circumstances are different between involved athletes and what not.

Fact really is that people can only become elite with a mental approach that suits them, their style, their experience and their circumstances which is only really achieved by being there, doing it and watching others to enable you to pick that with works for you and adapt that which is necessary.

I am no world champion but know many top level athletes (a few international level, mainly national level) and no two are the same in the way they go about things which is what makes the mental application and approaches so interesting.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Even I doubt it. But its not impossible. By my rational though Marc would have gotten better each season. He is a great adapter.
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Excuse me mr quitter dubs but did mm not have a dominant year in 2014 yet was unable to back that up in 15? Are we holding him to different standards to can't back it up Stoner?
 
birdman said:
The question is would MM have done any better in 2008 on a Ducati? Obviously I'm biased but I don't think there's been a rider in the history of the sport that could have rode that Ducati faster than Stoner, regardless of how many championships they have. More consistently maybe, as in consistently 5th place, but not to any more wins. As you say it doesn't make Stoner the best racer in history or even able to defend a title.

MM is more the complete package overall.
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Noone else could because they didnt have the skill set to ride the Duc. Same reason he only had 7 wins in the lower classes. His style doesnt suit the corner speed bikes. His experience in dirt track is why he was able to tame the Duc. Experience the rest of the grid didnt have.
 
michaelm said:
"As it happens" (to coin a phrase) several of my family are/have been elite athletes by pretty much any standard, not that I got any of those genes.

I specifically raised this issue with my brother, not one of those to whom I refer, but a highly intelligent man and a keen fan of motorsports if not quite as obsessed as I am with gp bike racing, when I was debating the Lorenzo hating french motorcycle courier. He without prompting immediately said what I thought he would, that the French guy claiming his experience allowed him to judge the likes of Jorge Lorenzo would be like him critiquing Usain Bolt's training methods and running style on the basis of having been a 10.5 second 100 metre runner, which he was with virtually no training as a 17 year old schoolboy. instead his perspective makes him consider what Bolt does to be even more inexplicably extraordinary.
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Gaz said:
In all honesty as well Dubs, I doubt if much of the explanation of the mental side required at the truly elite could ever be understood by us mere mortals, never mind it being passed down.

I say that as each their own and what works for one will not for for another and so forth plus of course circumstances are different between involved athletes and what not.

Fact really is that people can only become elite with a mental approach that suits them, their style, their experience and their circumstances which is only really achieved by being there, doing it and watching others to enable you to pick that with works for you and adapt that which is necessary.

I am no world champion but know many top level athletes (a few international level, mainly national level) and no two are the same in the way they go about things which is what makes the mental application and approaches so interesting.
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I think what it comes down to is something that I think bird touched on. I feel like he could have accomplished so much more if he was not his own worst enemy due to something I saw in is mental psych. And you all see exterior forces that caused it. I don't disagree with the things the pro-stoner supporters say. I just also think what I said above also applies. but that doesn't mean I understand what its like to be him.
 
birdman said:
Excuse me mr quitter dubs but did mm not have a dominant year in 2014 yet was unable to back that up in 15? Are we holding him to different standards to can't back it up Stoner?
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But he didn't let that get him down. Marc didn't seem flustered and turned it around faster than stoner after a title. I'm trying to fish over here. Quit quoting me.
 
birdman said:
Excuse me mr quitter dubs but did mm not have a dominant year in 2014 yet was unable to back that up in 15? Are we holding him to different standards to can't back it up Stoner?
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No. MM would have cruised to a championship if he had settled to position. He was in a place to back it up had he rode smarter. It took the divine intervention of HRC brass to convince him that slow can be faster
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I think what it comes down to is something that I think bird touched on. I feel like he could have accomplished so much more if he was not his own worst enemy due to something I saw in is mental psych. And you all see exterior forces that caused it. I don't disagree with the things the pro-stoner supporters say. I just also think what I said above also applies. but that doesn't mean I understand what its like to be him.
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That is (imo) rather less arrogant, and something you are quite entitled to say (again imo) as a sports competitor particularly given your professional expertise.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I think what it comes down to is something that I think bird touched on. I feel like he could have accomplished so much more if he was not his own worst enemy due to something I saw in is mental psych. And you all see exterior forces that caused it. I don't disagree with the things the pro-stoner supporters say. I just also think what I said above also applies. but that doesn't mean I understand what its like to be him.
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I dont think I have ever disagreed with a post Bird has written. I applaud his objectivity in seeing both sides of the coin. Mike, Gaz you guys are stalker lever obsessed with Stoner. Not one of you has ever found any bit of criticism aimed at Stoner viable. Thats just stupid. Noone is perfect. Listening to you two is like watching OJ's trial all over again. If the glove doesn't fit, then he didn't quit
 
My marc boner reached supreme hardness after Sepang. His actions following the events are not like any athlete I've ever seen. He kept his mouth shut and focused on Valencia and let nature take its course. He knows he was kicked, he knows what happened. But he is focused. He was scrutinized IMO harder than Stoner by the media, the fans, and Dorna for being crazy. He didn't let that change him. He just kept smiling like an ...... But he I no ...... He is mentally strong. But he feels the same pressure that the other stars do but his ability to handle it is amazing.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I think what it comes down to is something that I think bird touched on. I feel like he could have accomplished so much more if he was not his own worst enemy due to something I saw in is mental psych. And you all see exterior forces that caused it. I don't disagree with the things the pro-stoner supporters say. I just also think what I said above also applies. but that doesn't mean I understand what its like to be him.
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Ermm think again and re-read my prior posts .............. whilst I do believe he was subject to a level of external influences that others were not subject to or fighting against, I have long said that CS was his own worst enemy in terms of the pressures that he applied for himself.

I have always said that he is extremely tightly wound, a somewhat complex individual of pure genius on a bike but at the same time naive in believing that this genius would make him uniformly liked, loved or appreciated in the world of today where the cult of personality or fan ownership exist. Essentially and not saying how I believe he would have gone, but I firmly believe that he entered the top echelon of the sport around 15 - 20 years to late in terms of the acceptance or appreciation of riders as social media and the subsequent intrusions it brings has changed the dynamic of the paddock.

That said, absolutely he has a right to whinge, whine and cajole himself over some of the changes that took place, just as Ducati are today with the removal of the wings for 2017 (funny, they are whinging and yet absolved where CS speaks and we all remember) but just as that does not make him wrong, he is not always correct.
 
JohnnyKnockdown said:
I dont think I have ever disagreed with a post Bird has written. I applaud his objectivity in seeing both sides of the coin. Mike, Gaz you guys are stalker lever obsessed with Stoner. Not one of you has ever found any bit of criticism aimed at Stoner viable. Thats just stupid. Noone is perfect. Listening to you two is like watching OJ's trial all over again. If the glove doesn't fit, then he didn't quit
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........ JKD as I have criticised him in this very thread and in the past but let that not get in the way of YOUR objectivity of which there is none when it comes to your jealousy of being deprived of your need to criticise the personality of Stoner ....... and yet you accuse others of stalking, go figure



Edit. Interesting that you accuse us of stalker level obsessed but you cannot help yourself either, so three peas to the pod I gather
 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
Nice. Impression is everything.
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Well Dubs, I don't see you as a quitter and as such I do not want to think negative of you by using that word, thus I figured that retire was a softer more explanatory word within the context (given you want Birdy to retire (quit) quoting you.


Should also add that Stoner is also now golfing (apparently) so you may wish to take that up along with fishing
 
Gaz said:
Ermm think again and re-read my prior posts .............. whilst I do believe he was subject to a level of external influences that others were not subject to or fighting against, I have long said that CS was his own worst enemy in terms of the pressures that he applied for himself.

I have always said that he is extremely tightly wound, a somewhat complex individual of pure genius on a bike but at the same time naive in believing that this genius would make him uniformly liked, loved or appreciated in the world of today where the cult of personality or fan ownership exist. Essentially and not saying how I believe he would have gone, but I firmly believe that he entered the top echelon of the sport around 15 - 20 years to late in terms of the acceptance or appreciation of riders as social media and the subsequent intrusions it brings has changed the dynamic of the paddock.

That said, absolutely he has a right to whinge, whine and cajole himself over some of the changes that took place, just as Ducati are today with the removal of the wings for 2017 (funny, they are whinging and yet absolved where CS speaks and we all remember) but just as that does not make him wrong, he is not always correct.
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You do and that why I don't understand why Micheal is so mean to me and nice to you.
 
Gaz said:
Well Dubs, I don't see you as a quitter and as such I do not want to think negative of you by using that word, thus I figured that retire was a softer more explanatory word within the context (given you want Birdy to retire (quit) quoting you.


Should also add that Stoner is also now golfing (apparently) so you may wish to take that up along with fishing
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Is he now? What is his lowest score? And does anyone know what the biggest fish he ever caught is?
 
Gaz said:
y in terms of the pressures that he applied for himself.

I have always said that he is extremely tightly wound, a somewhat complex individual of pure genius on a bike but at the same time naive in believing that this genius would make him uniformly liked, loved or appreciated in the world of today where the cult of personality or fan ownership exist. Essentially and not saying how I believe he would have gone, but I firmly believe that he entered the top echelon of the sport around 15 - 20 years to late in terms of the acceptance or appreciation of riders as social media and the subsequent intrusions it brings has changed the dynamic of the paddock.
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I also had the same thought during this thread. I think Stoner would have had been far more comfortable with his fellow competitors (or competitor seeing most of that to which he objected was centred on Rossi) then, the way the sport was administered then, and the way the sport was covered then, including what was expected of the riders apart from racing. How competitive he would have been against the "Golden Era" guys is a different question.
 

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