Dovi not pulling any punches

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 8, 2016

Gaz said:
........ JKD as I have criticised him in this very thread and in the past but let that not get in the way of YOUR objectivity of which there is none when it comes to your jealousy of being deprived of your need to criticise the personality of Stoner .......

I havnt seen your criticism. I have been steadfast in my belief that he was the fastest rider of his generation, who underachieved due to his head. Im actually complementing his ability but you fail to see that.
I have poked fun at every rider on the grid, even the ones I like. There's no jealousy. These people are human. Their not infallible. They're all .... ups one way or another and Im going to point it out. I just slagged my all time favorite rider in this very thread. Have some objectivity like bird and Im not talking about the gold digging bird that used to be here

michaelm · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
My marc boner reached supreme hardness after Sepang. His actions following the events are not like any athlete I've ever seen. He kept his mouth shut and focused on Valencia and let nature take its course. He knows he was kicked, he knows what happened. But he is focused. He was scrutinized IMO harder than Stoner by the media, the fans, and Dorna for being crazy. He didn't let that change him. He just kept smiling like an ...... But he I no ...... He is mentally strong. But he feels the same pressure that the other stars do but his ability to handle it is amazing.

Totally agree. Jorge Lorenzo didn't exactly crumble under pressure in the late season races last year either.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 8, 2016

michaelm said:
I also had the same thought during this thread. I think Stoner would have had been far more comfortable with his fellow competitors (or competitor seeing most of that to which he objected was centred on Rossi) then, the way the sport was administered then, and the way the sport was covered then, including what was expected of the riders apart from racing. How competitive he would have been against the "Golden Era" guys is a different question.

No argument from me with that either. Stoner came into motogp while there was a sports dynasty in progress or ending. Had he came at another time the story could be very different.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 8, 2016

michaelm said:
I also had the same thought during this thread. I think Stoner would have had been far more comfortable with his fellow competitors (or competitor seeing most of that to which he objected was centred on Rossi) then, the way the sport was administered then, and the way the sport was covered then, including what was expected of the riders apart from racing. How competitive he would have been against the "Golden Era" guys is a different question.

I dont know. I didnt watch back then but SR seems to be quite the ornery competitor. Him and his own son are currently trading blows
I can't see things being too much different

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 8, 2016

michaelm said:
Totally agree. Jorge Lorenzo didn't exactly crumble under pressure in the late season races last year either.

Jorge is an interesting cat. He doesn't crumble, we only need a weatherman to tell how he is going to do. He wears his heart on his sleeve thats for sure.

Gaz · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Is he now? What is his lowest score? And does anyone know what the biggest fish he ever caught is?

I am led to believe that his score is nearer a cricket score than a baseball score.

As for fish, genuinely NFI as whilst it is commonly known that he enjoys it there is little publicity surrounding him/it in Asutralia as motorcycle racing is a very small niche sport and as such he is not a recognisable face (same for all Australian racers) and in reality, he is quiet on social media.

JohnnyKnockdown said:
I havnt seen your criticism. I have been steadfast in my belief that he was the fastest rider of his generation, who underachieved due to his head. Im actually complementing his ability but you fail to see that.
I have poked fun at every rider on the grid, even the ones I like. There's no jealousy. These people are human. Their not infallible. They're all .... ups one way or another and Im going to point it out. I just slagged my all time favorite rider in this very thread. Have some objectivity like bird and Im not talking about the gold digging bird that used to be here

Put it this way JKD, I have been called a hater in some threads with my take and approaches (ie. he got off ridiculously light for his RdP issue) and I have plenty of objectivity and display it often although as you have stated you have not seen it (perhaps you have but read it with bias as I may your comments).

I just cannot see the need for the seeming hatred that burns by some for some riders (not just you to CS but some towards Rossi as well).

Gaz · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Jorge is an interesting cat. He doesn't crumble, we only need a weatherman to tell how he is going to do. He wears his heart on his sleeve thats for sure.

I think JL is as strong as MM in a mental manner and a metronomic rider on track (his ability for consistency is his lap times is freakish) but I also think that JL has become stronger as his career has gone along but I see him in some aspects as similar to CS in that he is not what may be called a 'well publically presented/spoken' rider (no criticism just the way these guys are).

I enjoy the emotive press conferences he gives actually, particularly this year as it seems that now the decision has been made he (as I ahve said previously) is seemingly giving a big FU to Yamaha for what he seems or feels may be poor or unjust issues (I gather that we may not be seeing all that has gone on)

michaelm · Oct 8, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
I dont think I have ever disagreed with a post Bird has written. I applaud his objectivity in seeing both sides of the coin. Mike, Gaz you guys are stalker lever obsessed with Stoner. Not one of you has ever found any bit of criticism aimed at Stoner viable. Thats just stupid. Noone is perfect. Listening to you two is like watching OJ's trial all over again. If the glove doesn't fit, then he didn't quit

Post some substantive criticism of him then, and we can see how I deal with same. I have said on many occasions that I have absolutely no objection to you disliking him personally, just to how you try to spin this into ludicrous contentions about how he rode/raced, and in particular any contention that he or anyone else could have had more success for Ducati than he did, which Valentino Rossi's subsequent adventure there rather put into perspective.

My stand against ........ pseudo-psychology/cod pyschology if bloody minded has been consistent, and I didn't resort to it myself even in my contretemps with our mutual friend Cliche, who appeared incapable of posting anything else, although he mainly applied it to posters he had never met rather than riders he had never met.

michaelm · Oct 8, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
I dont know. I didnt watch back then but SR seems to be quite the ornery competitor. Him and his own son are currently trading blows
I can't see things being too much different

No problem at all with what I have heard of KRSR as a competitor, and I don't think Stoner, who basically wanted to be Mick Doohan, would have had either. King Kenny didn't do much in the way of off-track manipulative ......../inciting fans to vilify fellow riders as far as I am aware.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 8, 2016

Gaz said:
I think JL is as strong as MM in a mental manner and a metronomic rider on track (his ability for consistency is his lap times is freakish) but I also think that JL has become stronger as his career has gone along but I see him in some aspects as similar to CS in that he is not what may be called a 'well publically presented/spoken' rider (no criticism just the way these guys are).

I enjoy the emotive press conferences he gives actually, particularly this year as it seems that now the decision has been made he (as I ahve said previously) is seemingly giving a big FU to Yamaha for what he seems or feels may be poor or unjust issues (I gather that we may not be seeing all that has gone on)

I don't think he is as strong as Marc. I think its fairly easy to get under his skin. I miss Sics ability to do that so well on and off the track so much. But his metronomic riding is extraordinary. I am extremely worried about his future as I have stated openly. Ducati and metronome are practically opposites.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 8, 2016

michaelm said:
No problem at all with what I have heard of KRSR as a competitor, and i don't think Stoner, who basically wanted to be Mick Doohan, would have had either. He didn't do much in the way of off-track manipulative ......../inciting fans to vilify fellow riders as far as I am aware.

You just went full cod on 46

Gaz · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
I don't think he is as strong as Marc. I think its fairly easy to get under his skin. I miss Sics ability to do that so well on and off the track so much. But his metronomic riding is extraordinary. I am extremely worried about his future as I have stated openly. Ducati and metronome are practically opposites.

See this is where we differ (again) as I think that you can get under the skins of both JL and MM, but that it is seemingly more obvious with JL as he is one of the 'more intense/tightly wound' type of athletes. Thus to me we can see JL getting a little antsy/emotional (physically and body language) whereas with MM he does it in what I refer to as the Rossiesque style where he smiles, laughs, nods his head and seemingly finding humor in the situation whilst burning inside.

Much as we said elsewhere, one present well the other is not as 'publically ideal in how they present'

michaelm · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
You just went full cod on 46

I draw no conclusions as to Valentino's psyche or why he does what he does. If you seriously dispute that he does it, take it up with MM and Jorge Lorenzo who have made direct statements to that effect.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 8, 2016

Gaz said:
See this is where we differ (again) as I think that you can get under the skins of both JL and MM, but that it is seemingly more obvious with JL as he is one of the 'more intense/tightly wound' type of athletes. Thus to me we can see JL getting a little antsy/emotional (physically and body language) whereas with MM he does it in what I refer to as the Rossiesque style where he smiles, laughs, nods his head and seemingly finding humor in the situation whilst burning inside.

Much as we said elsewhere, one present well the other is not as 'publically ideal in how they present'

I agree with your opinion of how they handle pressure and there isn't a right and wrong if in the end you handle it. But when on track things happen that fluster JLo and MM I think it effects MM less. But I have seen him succumb especially in his younger years. But if we compare younger years JLo was also reckless. Mot forget that. Not that its important. JLo' time at Ducati will be telling about the person he is. I look forward to it.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 8, 2016

michaelm said:
I draw no conclusions as to Valentino's psyche or why he does what he does. If you seriously dispute that he does it, take it up with MM and Jorge Lorenzo who have made direct statements to that effect.

I was messing with you. I have witnessed Rossis mind games like you have.

Gaz · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
I agree with your opinion of how they handle pressure and there isn't a right and wrong if in the end you handle it. But when on track things happen that fluster JLo and MM I think it effects MM less. But I have seen him succumb especially in his younger years. But if we compare younger years JLo was also reckless. Mot forget that. Not that its important. JLo' time at Ducati will be telling about the person he is. I look forward to it.

Totally as in the 250 class Lorenzo was not that highly thought of in terms of on track behaviours (which opened him to calls oh hypocrisy in the MotoGP class but often people learn as they get older and more experience).

I am actually much the same in terms of looking to 2017 and how Lorenzo goes on the Ducati as I do think it will be a make or break time for him and his legacy (let us not forget, he has 5 titles to date).

Although I suspect that he will do ok in 2017 I actually look more forward to 2018 as by then he should have learnt the machine, the team and the manufacturer and likewise they should have learnt from him, thus whilst the 2017 bike may have little input from JL, the 2018 bike I suspect will be all JL.

At the same time I look forward to how a few of them go next year on their new equipment and in the new environments, but no doubt most pressure will be on Lorenzo

In the end however, I wonder how the public will treat JL if he gets more than 2 podiums and perhaps even a win or two.

Gaz · Oct 8, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
I was messing with you. I have witnessed Rossis mind games like you have.

Rossi does not play mind games .................. he simply speaks the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help himself.

birdman · Oct 8, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Noone else could because they didnt have the skill set to ride the Duc. Same reason he only had 7 wins in the lower classes. His style doesnt suit the corner speed bikes. His experience in dirt track is why he was able to tame the Duc. Experience the rest of the grid didnt have.

Hayden has experience in dirt track but it didn't help him tame the Duc. Hayden says Stoners telemetry is not dirt track or anything like any other rider. Apparently it's all applications of brake and clutch and throttle all over the place like he had no idea what he was doing. Some say it resembled a rider about to crash. Rossi thought he was simply mad, not angry out of his mind. Which might be true.

My theory isn't the dirt track. It's what dubs said. Racing is in the mind 80%. Stoner doesn't have that as a strength. Not in a conventional competitive or social way. Even his parents knew he had issues from an early age. So my theory is he had to overcompensate with ability. He had to turn the 20% skill into his 80%. It made him a world champion but it couldn't keep him there like other riders have managed because they were stronger or more rounded competitors. Like mm.

michaelm · Oct 8, 2016

birdman said:
Hayden has experience in dirt track but it didn't help him tame the Duc. Hayden says Stoners telemetry is not dirt track or anything like any other rider. Apparently it's all applications of brake and clutch and throttle all over the place like he had no idea what he was doing. Some say it resembled a rider about to crash. Rossi thought he was simply mad, not angry out of his mind. Which might be true.

My theory isn't the dirt track. It's what dubs said. Racing is in the mind 80%. Stoner doesn't have that as a strength. Not in a conventional competitive or social way. Even his parents knew he had issues from an early age. So my theory is he had to overcompensate with ability. He had to turn the 20% skill into his 80%. It made him a world champion but it couldn't keep him there like other riders have managed because they were stronger or more rounded competitors. Like mm.

It is my belief that to ride the way he did took absolutely immense and draining focus, and also that his riding style was never going to be sustainable over almost 2 decades at the pinnacle of the sport as Rossi's has proved to be. I am not so sure about MM's riding style either as he gets older, although he is obviously greatly less susceptible (ie pretty much not at all) to off track pressures than Stoner was.

Like others I agree with nearly everything you have ever posted as well btw.

michaelm · Oct 8, 2016

Goku said:
Stoner is superior to MM because he used minimum electronics is kind of week because he is the guy who grew up with no electronics. Here is what David Emmet Said

You have to remember that a lot of the young riders coming into MotoGP came in through Moto2, where they have almost no electronics. All the teams can do is optimize fuel maps, there is no TC, no launch control, no wheelie control. Of the riders who raced in 2006, the era before electronics truly took off, only Valentino Rossi, Nicky Hayden, and now Marco Melandri remain. The rest are all 800 era riders, who have known nothing else. So perhaps your comparison should be that the older riders are the ones like Jorge Lorenzo and Dani Pedrosa, who have always raced with electronics, while the younger generation, riders like Marc Marquez and Pol Espargaro, come from Moto2, were there is no electronics...

So if MM is exploiting electronics aid to this much it's because it's his ability to adapt and learn quickly. MM did some amazing stuff in moto2 where there is no electronics aid so he can't do same with minimum electronics aid in moto gp.

Pedrosa raced in 2006 as well.

I have no problem with any and all positive assessments of MM's riding, apart from his past recklessness in incidents like the Willairot incident.

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