Dovi not pulling any punches

birdman said:

Hayden has experience in dirt track but it didn't help him tame the Duc. Hayden says Stoners telemetry is not dirt track or anything like any other rider. Apparently it's all applications of brake and clutch and throttle all over the place like he had no idea what he was doing. Some say it resembled a rider about to crash. Rossi thought he was simply mad, not angry out of his mind. Which might be true.

My theory isn't the dirt track. It's what dubs said. Racing is in the mind 80%. Stoner doesn't have that as a strength. Not in a conventional competitive or social way. Even his parents knew he had issues from an early age. So my theory is he had to overcompensate with ability. He had to turn the 20% skill into his 80%. It made him a world champion but it couldn't keep him there like other riders have managed because they were stronger or more rounded competitors. Like mm.

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He had a comfort level on a bike that was out of shape because of dirt.
I said earlier that NH had the skill set but not the skill to get the most out of any bike he rides

birdman said:

Hayden has experience in dirt track but it didn't help him tame the Duc. Hayden says Stoners telemetry is not dirt track or anything like any other rider. Apparently it's all applications of brake and clutch and throttle all over the place like he had no idea what he was doing. Some say it resembled a rider about to crash. Rossi thought he was simply mad, not angry out of his mind. Which might be true.

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Didn't Melandri say something similar in 2008?

I seem to recall reports around the time where Melandri (the other MM) was struggling where it was said that when asked to use Stoner's settings he was even slower with the settings, and when he looked at the data he admitted to having NFI as it was the polar opposite of what he would expect to be doing and was so counter-intuitive to his experience.

michaelm said:

It is my belief that to ride the way he did took absolutely immense and draining focus, and also that his riding style was never going to be sustainable over almost 2 decades at the pinnacle of the sport as Rossi's has proved to be. I am not so sure about MM's riding style either as he gets older, although he is obviously greatly less susceptible (ie pretty much not at all) to off track pressures than Stoner was.

Like others I agree with nearly everything you have ever posted as well btw.

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We don't know about MM or can't judge based on what we see. Two of the most brutally honest bios I've read were Stoners and Rainey. I always thought Wayne as strong as they come, hard as nails etc and certainly had no idea what we saw from the outside was in conflict to how he really felt. He describes winning the w/c, expecting to feel absolute euphoria. He says it lasted all of about 5 minutes, leaving him feeling completely empty and at a loss about what he should now do with his life. I guess it would be described as depression. rather than retire or at least take a break and get himself well he pretty much went full workaholic driving himself harder than ever.
In the final year he was at an all time low. He knew he was concussed and a danger to ride at Donnington but his judgement was impaired by his mental state and he only saw one way to continue no matter what. He made it through that race but by Misano he says he actually knew something bad was about to happen and was in a bad state of stress and anxiety. Before the race he didn't feel right and he knew from experience it was one of those times he should just accept second place but he refused to accept reality and again pushed himself further than he ever had and inevitably the accident came.

Like I said I found both bios almost disturbingly honest. Stoners was different I doubt he was depressed but certainly he often appeared stressed. Walking away was absolutely the best thing Stoner could have done he has nothing to prove to you me or even dubs.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

He had a comfort level on a bike that was out of shape because of dirt.
I said earlier that NH had the skill set but not the skill to get the most out of any bike he rides

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Dirt bikes are fun and feel great out of shape. The Ducati felt like a complete pile of pigshit it was so unconventional there was no way to prepare skills or have comfort on the bike. Stoner says he had to re-invent how he rode. I don't think Marquez by comparison has faced that kind of challenge yet he has more likely learned when to turn it down a bit when things aren't right, but the Ducati was never right.

birdman said:

We don't know about MM or can't judge based on what we see. Two of the most brutally honest bios I've read were Stoners and Rainey. I always thought Wayne as strong as they come, hard as nails etc and certainly had no idea what we saw from the outside was in conflict to how he really felt. He describes winning the w/c, expecting to feel absolute euphoria. He says it lasted all of about 5 minutes, leaving him feeling completely empty and at a loss about what he should now do with his life. I guess it would be described as depression. rather than retire or at least take a break and get himself well he pretty much went full workaholic driving himself harder than ever.
In the final year he was at an all time low. He knew he was concussed and a danger to ride at Donnington but his judgement was impaired by his mental state and he only saw one way to continue no matter what. He made it through that race but by Misano he says he actually knew something bad was about to happen and was in a bad state of stress and anxiety. Before the race he didn't feel right and he knew from experience it was one of those times he should just accept second place but he refused to accept reality and again pushed himself further than he ever had and inevitably the accident came.

Like I said I found both bios almost disturbingly honest. Stoners was different I doubt he was depressed but certainly he often appeared stressed. Walking away was absolutely the best thing Stoner could have done he has nothing to prove to you me or even dubs.

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I don't have any doubts about MM handling pressure, now or ever. My concern is whether he will be able to continue to ride so far out on the edge if his reflexes start to fade a little.

michaelm said:

I don't have any doubts about MM handling pressure, now or ever. My concern is whether he will be able to continue to ride so far out on the edge if his reflexes start to fade a little.

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That's one thing in particular that VR exceeds at; knowing how to compensate for age. His off-track antics aside, his intelligence far exceeds many of his contemporaries, and has allowed him to make up for outright speed deficiencies in other ways. I would say he's the gold standard for how to handle reflexes/skill fading somewhat from peak abilities. He's also a standard in how to adapt to the ever-changing atmosphere of GP. Whether MM can do that remains to be seen as we haven't yet had any major formula change, unless one wants to count the spec ECU as one...which I don't.

I've really enjoyed this conversation once we got past the b.s. Everyone has had great takes on the riders mentality with no disrespect or talk of benefits/deficiencies.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I've really enjoyed this conversation once we got past the b.s. Everyone has had great takes on the riders mentality with no disrespect or talk of benefits/deficiencies.

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And it makes me wonder how certain ex-posters think this place is no good.

Oh wait, brainwashing.

Nevermind.

JPSLotus said:

And it makes me wonder how certain ex-posters think this place is no good.

Oh wait, brainwashing.

Nevermind.

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Even during the hardest moments I still enjoy all these guys. But I am glad someone is gone.

Stoner is an enigma, when at Ducati he would accelerate out of corners with both brakes on, he married his incredible throttle control with the electronics of the bike to devastating effect, he'd hang off the bike in awkward ways, he'd do things which other top class motorcycle racers could not or would not attempt to replicate, it's almost as if he'd made a Faustian Pact with the machine.

As a person, obviously not knowing him it's difficult to examine him but he reminds me of Kimi Raikkonen from F1 and despite Casey not sharing the Finns enthusiasm for drinking, they have similarities like when not racing they'd rather be well away doing something which they love, they don't like the media side of racing, they were constantly having to deal with speculation about whether they could handle the pressure.

You can't criticise Stoner for retiring when he did, he had fallen out of love with the sport, he'd achieved what he set out to achieve, he didn't care for record numbers of race wins and championship trophies and 2012 was the time to go because there was the continued threat of dumbing down the bikes of which can be a separate topic all of it's own but in my view Grand Prix motorcycle racing should be the pinnacle of motorcycle racing, they should be allowed to use whatever tyre they please, they should be addled with the latest electronic systems otherwise you go the way of F1 were they are driving 1.6 Turbo Hybrids which are 10 seconds a lap slower than the V10 electronics laden monsters they raced 10 years ago, they try to increase the spectacle with manufactured racing gimmicks like KERS, DRS and silly tyre rules, I'd rather watch lawnmower racing.

On the subject at hand I agree with Dovi, always have done, he's a straight shooter in interviews, especially when he slammed Ducati a year or two ago saying some people there were making it difficult to progress the development of the bike, changes were made and now the bike is somewhat competitive on tarmac other than a dragstrip. I agree about Iannone too, talented rider but has sawdust where his brain should be.

Thing with Stoner, as I see it, is that while he was well suited to the Desmosidici (and an absolute devil on the GP7), his performance on the other bikes wasn't nearly as spectacular.

In my opinion, it wasn't so much that he was riding around the Ducati's limitations as they weren't really problems for him. His style meshed with the bike's characteristics. I suspect that's one of the main reasons for his return to Ducati from Honda; competitiveness aside, he probably likes the bike more.

He's most certainly a worthy world champion, but in a class above the other 'aliens', as many suggest? I don't think so. In fact, he's the only one of the lot without any titles in the junior classes.

Finished behind Pedrosa in 125cc & 250cc classes, and behind Pedrosa again in his first year on a factory spec Honda RC211V. Had both of them gone a full season without injury on the Honda, the championship could have gone either way.

Put them both on a Ducati and it'll be Stoner show for sure, but on a Yamaha or Suzuki? I think a (fit) Pedrosa might prevail.

JKant said:

Thing with Stoner, as I see it, is that while he was well suited to the Desmosidici (and an absolute devil on the GP7), his performance on the other bikes wasn't nearly as spectacular.

In my opinion, it wasn't so much that he was riding around the Ducati's limitations as they weren't really problems for him. His style meshed with the bike's characteristics. I suspect that's one of the main reasons for his return to Ducati from Honda; competitiveness aside, he probably likes the bike more.

He's most certainly a worthy world champion, but in a class above the other 'aliens', as many suggest? I don't think so. In fact, he's the only one of the lot without any titles in the junior classes.

Finished behind Pedrosa in 125cc & 250cc classes, and behind Pedrosa again in his first year on a factory spec Honda RC211V. Had both of them gone a full season without injury on the Honda, the championship could have gone either way.

Put them both on a Ducati and it'll be Stoner show for sure, but on a Yamaha or Suzuki? I think a (fit) Pedrosa might prevail.

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You clearly weren't watching if you think his performance on the RCV wasn't nearly as spectacular.

To say he isn't above the other aliens is to have no real clue about how he rode, and what his contemporaries said about his prodigious talent.

Second, he was receiving mismatched Michelin tires in 2006 (this has all been well-documented) and don't think the bike was getting the same support as the one Pedrosa was on, which was a full factory backed effort versus a satellite bike.

A 3rd string satellite bike at that.

AntG said:

A 3rd string satellite bike at that.

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With a team in their first year in MotoGP at the time.

IMO, while we all talk of his factory time, the way he and that team started in 2006 sure opened a lot of eyes and got tongues wagging

That said, Pedrosa also showed what he was capable of that year which setup a good little battle for a few years to come

JKant said:

He's most certainly a worthy world champion, but in a class above the other 'aliens', as many suggest? I don't think so. In fact, he's the only one of the lot without any titles in the junior classes.

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Personally I do not see the relevance in this statement at all (even given he just missed out), as until Rossi came along many of the World Champions, some now considered absolute legends of the sport had not competed in or won the 125/250 championship or races within that championship with Hayden having achieved the feat since.

Often a rider capable in the feeder classes produces nothing in the MotoGP classs, or reverse where a rider who produced little in the feeders may well perform well in the MotoGP class.

Feeder classes do not a rider make, nor do they diminish an achievement in any class.

JKant said:

Thing with Stoner, as I see it, is that while he was well suited to the Desmosidici (and an absolute devil on the GP7), his performance on the other bikes wasn't nearly as spectacular.

In my opinion, it wasn't so much that he was riding around the Ducati's limitations as they weren't really problems for him. His style meshed with the bike's characteristics. I suspect that's one of the main reasons for his return to Ducati from Honda; competitiveness aside, he probably likes the bike more.

He's most certainly a worthy world champion, but in a class above the other 'aliens', as many suggest? I don't think so. In fact, he's the only one of the lot without any titles in the junior classes.

Finished behind Pedrosa in 125cc & 250cc classes, and behind Pedrosa again in his first year on a factory spec Honda RC211V. Had both of them gone a full season without injury on the Honda, the championship could have gone either way.

Put them both on a Ducati and it'll be Stoner show for sure, but on a Yamaha or Suzuki? I think a (fit) Pedrosa might prevail.

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No they were limitations for him, you should read his book he covers the bike and the problems extensively.

He never had a factory ride in the junior classes of than 1 year in 125s with KTM where he gave KTM their first ever win. He also talks about .... parts he got due to sponsors that weren't up to par etc. He finished second to Pedrosa in the 250s on a privateer bike while Pedrosa enjoyed all the advantages of having a factory bike.

birdman said:

Dirt bikes are fun and feel great out of shape. The Ducati felt like a complete pile of pigshit it was so unconventional there was no way to prepare skills or have comfort on the bike. Stoner says he had to re-invent how he rode. I don't think Marquez by comparison has faced that kind of challenge yet he has more likely learned when to turn it down a bit when things aren't right, but the Ducati was never right.

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Your right Bird. That ..... is twisted, devious and will ruin any who ride it.
Oh wait......were you talking about the Ducati? I thought you were referring to an ex poster

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Your right Bird. That ..... is twisted, devious and will ruin any who ride it.
Oh wait......were you talking about the Ducati? I thought you were referring to an ex poster

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I think the major difference is Ducati at least will pay you, while this retired poster leaves one broken and broke.

p4p1 said:

No they were limitations for him, you should read his book he covers the bike and the problems extensively.

He never had a factory ride in the junior classes of than 1 year in 125s with KTM where he gave KTM their first ever win. He also talks about .... parts he got due to sponsors that weren't up to par etc. He finished second to Pedrosa in the 250s on a privateer bike while Pedrosa enjoyed all the advantages of having a factory bike.

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He didn't get a fair shot (relative to Pedrosa) in the junior classes and in his rookie year in MotoGP. Okay. But lets take the years that he was on the same equipment i.e 2011 & 2012.

Discounting the races in which one or the other was injured, as well as Le Mans '11 & Jerez '11, head-to-head Stoner scored 509 pts to 481 for Pedrosa. (Each missed three races.) Even accounting for extraneous factors, that's pretty close I'd say.

JKant said:

Thing with Stoner, as I see it, is that while he was well suited to the Desmosidici (and an absolute devil on the GP7), his performance on the other bikes wasn't nearly as spectacular.

In my opinion, it wasn't so much that he was riding around the Ducati's limitations as they weren't really problems for him. His style meshed with the bike's characteristics. I suspect that's one of the main reasons for his return to Ducati from Honda; competitiveness aside, he probably likes the bike more.

He's most certainly a worthy world champion, but in a class above the other 'aliens', as many suggest? I don't think so. In fact, he's the only one of the lot without any titles in the junior classes.

Finished behind Pedrosa in 125cc & 250cc classes, and behind Pedrosa again in his first year on a factory spec Honda RC211V. Had both of them gone a full season without injury on the Honda, the championship could have gone either way.

Put them both on a Ducati and it'll be Stoner show for sure, but on a Yamaha or Suzuki? I think a (fit) Pedrosa might prevail.

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Sure, any opinion that he was an alien above other aliens is just that, an opinion and not very arguably an extreme one, which it is obviously entirely legitimate to dispute.

Not so sure about your other points, whatever he did on the Ducati, whichever means he employed even if it was by ESP, was extraordinary by any measure as Rossi rather demonstrated when he assayed riding the thing himself.

A fit Dani Pedrosa is a beast akin to a unicorn, and has not appeared in 10 seasons prior to this one, and while Dani has a week-end or two each year as he did even this year a few weeks ago when he actually is an alien above other aliens he didn't have the consistent practice or race pace of Stoner in 2011, and applying what "ifs" to a 10 race win championship season which I can with more credibility than you saying Dani could have won the title say could/should have been a 12 win season verges on being vexatious.


Ask Dani if he will swap his 125 and 250 titles for premier class titles, and even aside from the non-factory equipment Stoner had and that I could "what if" you myself on Stoner being injured himself in 2005, how good he ended up being is imo rather more relevant in any case than how good he was while still developing as a teenager, which involved perfecting an extreme riding style. You can sell me on MM and probably also JL being better than him any day of the week, but not Dani Pedrosa.