Dovi not pulling any punches

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JPSLotus said:
So he does it often.

Still doesn't change the fact that the electronics make it possible.

Why didn't he do better on the Honda? He won a title on the Honda. Or is there some mystery title that one should be aspiring to win that we don't know about?

Again, my contention still remains talent-wise, Stoner was superior to MM given his lack of need for electronics to ride a modern GP bike.
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Even if its the electronics he's still the only one that does it. Besides that one time in '08. That still shows he's in a league of his own. But its his mental toughness that takes him to another level IMO.

The point I always used to make is Stoner seem to do better with a fresh start. His first season someplace was always his best. Which goes along with all the other .... I say about him.
 
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Gaz said:
If he hated everyone why was he then and remains good friends with Spies, Edwards, Lorenzo, Pedrosa?

And yes, he is mates with those guys as evidenced by social media and the comments of (particularly) Edwards, Spies and Lorenzo.

Easy again however - if you get angry because your bike fails in a MTB event - are you mean to people or just angry?

Angry and mean are two distinctly different things as there has never been comment from journalists (which given how much some enjoyed reporting negativity about Stoner) or team members indicating anything other than intense focus from Stoner. Nowhere has their been comment that he was 'mean' to people by way of putting people down etc (actually, Dovi is likely more mean with his Ianonne comments), but yes there are reports of intensity and focus that can be frightening (Krop once reported the stare as sending chills).

The article to me reads as a native tongue interview translated (not just the Stoner comments but wordings in general) and angry could refer to the manner in which Stoner went about his business at the track and how intense he was, involving few others outside of his immediate team (Dovi was not part of that team). Thus the comparison to now retired Stoner being more relaxed and engaging of others as he is now not competing against them either, he is there to assist
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He's also friends with Ryan Villopoto.
Quitters of a feather, flock together.
 
Gaz said:
If he hated everyone why was he then and remains good friends with Spies, Edwards, Lorenzo, Pedrosa?

And yes, he is mates with those guys as evidenced by social media and the comments of (particularly) Edwards, Spies and Lorenzo.

Easy again however - if you get angry because your bike fails in a MTB event - are you mean to people or just angry?

Angry and mean are two distinctly different things as there has never been comment from journalists (which given how much some enjoyed reporting negativity about Stoner) or team members indicating anything other than intense focus from Stoner. Nowhere has their been comment that he was 'mean' to people by way of putting people down etc (actually, Dovi is likely more mean with his Ianonne comments), but yes there are reports of intensity and focus that can be frightening (Krop once reported the stare as sending chills).

The article to me reads as a native tongue interview translated (not just the Stoner comments but wordings in general) and angry could refer to the manner in which Stoner went about his business at the track and how intense he was, involving few others outside of his immediate team (Dovi was not part of that team). Thus the comparison to now retired Stoner being more relaxed and engaging of others as he is now not competing against them either, he is there to assist
Click to expand...
He had his moments in practice obviously, mostly pursuing a very valid view he had about the dangers of dallying on the racing line, but "being a .... about it" as David Emmett put it. After his accident as a rookie in 2006 when a riding error by him led to crashes and injuries for following riders for which he was immediately and profusely apologetic, with the exception of only 1 relatively minor incident that I can recall he raced impeccably in terms of fairness and consideration for fellow riders, causing no injuries whatsoever and not even altering any other rider's race result by a questionable move. Surely this is what actually counts. One of his gripes about LS 2008 was pretty much that Rossi took advantage of his awareness that Stoner would ride that way.

One of the things I don't defend was his contemptuous attitude to Marco Melandri when he struggled so badly as his team-mate on the 2008 Ducati, and if I don't believe in cod psychology I do have some belief in karma, and perhaps that attitude came back to bite him when he had his own issues in 2009.

I was going to make the same point about his friendship with the same riders that you have made, those riders including Dani Pedrosa who was his team-mate for 2 years, one of those years contemporaneous with Dovi.
 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
I didn't say he hated everyone Dovi did. I said he was mean which is not as bad as hate I thought.

But to answer your question about angry or mean after a bike failure? I've seen people do both or the complete opposite. I've seen people take their aggression out on people who don't deserve it all the time. I've seen people laughed and make fun of the failure. Both feel the same thing on the inside its just how they handle it.

I've had friends that were completely unapproachable on race weekends because they need to be angry to be in the "zone." Those people are easily flustered, easily taken out of their element and never are in the game very long.
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But you have associated that hatred must indicate that he was therefore mean to everyone and this is indicated to be untrue by a number of aspects, his ongoing friendships and let us also not forget the constant complaints from some regarding the friendliness of the podiums when CS, JL, DP and AD were involved.

I personally believe that any elite athlete that is not angry with equipment failure or even a poor performance is not readily an elite athlete or is not focussed enough on the task at hand.

Not sure that I agree that the 'highly strung' are never in the game for to long as there will be examples to dispell the myth but I will readily agree that they are more easily flustered and at times their discomfort may be more obvious to the watching eyes. None of which makes them lesser an athlete or person and in some respects it may even give a more 'human' touch as we all get flustered at times in our daily lives so to some observers it may be a normality thing where to others it may be seen in a lesser light
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Even if its the electronics he's still the only one that does it. Besides that one time in '08. That till shows he's in a league of his own.

The point I always used to make is Stoner seem to do better with a fresh start. His first season someplace was always his best. Which goes along with all the other .... I say about him.
Click to expand...

"Even if"...no, it's not an "even if".

You act like he is the only person to ever save a bike...a few of those saves were in situations that ultimately did not matter as they were practice sessions. My point was that the mistake you and others continue making is in not having any real understanding about the effect of the electronics even in the now spec ECU era. It's pretty much indisputable Stoner was the only rider who could handle the bike with minimal assistance from the computer.

Saying he always seemed to do better with a "fresh start" is just genuine ignorance on your part. Given he was not the one who decided to use a variable length inlet system on the GP08 in order to increase power, which is what took away the linear power delivery of engine, and resulted in an explosive power delivery that frankly made the bike unrideable for anyone else. And then the technical issues that followed with the GP09 and GP10 are already well documented, and he had nothing to do with the Ducati engineers chasing down a technological dead end.

At any rate, I'm a bit surprised you've decided to take the Moto Vudu route and talk out of your ....
 
Gaz said:
But you have associated that hatred must indicate that he was therefore mean to everyone and this is indicated to be untrue by a number of aspects, his ongoing friendships and let us also not forget the constant complaints from some regarding the friendliness of the podiums when CS, JL, DP and AD were involved.

I personally believe that any elite athlete that is not angry with equipment failure or even a poor performance is not readily an elite athlete or is not focussed enough on the task at hand.

Not sure that I agree that the 'highly strung' are never in the game for to long as there will be examples to dispell the myth but I will readily agree that they are more easily flustered and at times their discomfort may be more obvious to the watching eyes. None of which makes them lesser an athlete or person and in some respects it may even give a more 'human' touch as we all get flustered at times in our daily lives so to some observers it may be a normality thing where to others it may be seen in a lesser light
Click to expand...

I am friends with people I have been mean to but I am no friend of anyone I hate. I know dovi was talking I think he meant mean not hate. Cause if stoner hated people then he wouldn't be friends with any of them today. So I don;t need a run down of Stoners friends list.

Athletes are angry and some don't know where to direct said anger. And it comes out in amazing displays of poor sportsmanship all the time, not just in Stoner.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
all the other .... I say about him.
Click to expand...

Finally an accurate statement by you on this thread.

I actually agree about MM having extraordinary mental toughness, or perhaps being so lacking in fear that he doesn't even need to be mentally tough.

Fairly irrelevant to your contentions about Stoner however, and even if you are the world champion in your sport your experience is also of little relevance. Only 4 sportsmen have any experience relevant to the consequences of beating Valentino Rossi to a world title in the Rossi obsessed milieu of GP bike racing for the last 15 years, these riders being Nicky Hayden, Casey Stoner, Jorge Lorenzo and Marc Marquez, although the likes of Max Biaggi, Sete Gibernau and Toni Elias have experience of some relevance given what they copped for winning races against him occasionally, in Elias's case even though that was only once.
 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
I am friends with people I have been mean to but I am no friend of anyone I hate. I know dovi was talking I think he meant mean not hate. Cause if stoner hated people then he wouldn't be friends with any of them today. So I don;t need a run down of Stoners friends list.
Click to expand...

But sometimes knowing who is on good terms gives an insight and may indicate why one person sees A and the second sees B in a person.



MdubSTYLIE said:
Athletes are angry and some don't know where to direct said anger. And it comes out in amazing displays of poor sportsmanship all the time, not just in Stoner.
Click to expand...

2015 anyone?
 
JPSLotus said:
"Even if"...no, it's not an "even if".

You act like he is the only person to ever save a bike...a few of those saves were in situations that ultimately did not matter as they were practice sessions. My point was that the mistake you and others continue making is in not having any real understanding about the effect of the electronics even in the now spec ECU era. It's pretty much indisputable Stoner was the only rider who could handle the bike with minimal assistance from the computer.

Saying he always seemed to do better with a "fresh start" is just genuine ignorance on your part. Given he was not the one who decided to use a variable length inlet system on the GP08 in order to increase power, which is what took away the linear power delivery of engine, and resulted in an explosive power delivery that frankly made the bike unrideable for anyone else. And then the technical issues that followed with the GP09 and GP10 are already well documented, and he had nothing to do with the Ducati engineers chasing down a technological dead end.

At any rate, I'm a bit surprised you've decided to take the Moto Vudu route and talk out of your ....
Click to expand...

Me talk out of my ...? you say I know nothing about ECU when I never claim too. But you and your doctorate from google know everything. Its indisputable that stoner was the only blah blah blah maybe if he did use more electronics he would have done better.

I'm done man. When you get to the point when you act superior like you actually know something that you didn't just look up then I can't read your hit anymore.

I guess you should have been here or watching during stoners career sorry you missed the debate.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Even if its the electronics he's still the only one that does it. Besides that one time in '08. That still shows he's in a league of his own. But its his mental toughness that takes him to another level IMO.

The point I always used to make is Stoner seem to do better with a fresh start. His first season someplace was always his best. Which goes along with all the other .... I say about him.
Click to expand...

The question is would MM have done any better in 2008 on a Ducati? Obviously I'm biased but I don't think there's been a rider in the history of the sport that could have rode that Ducati faster than Stoner, regardless of how many championships they have. More consistently maybe, as in consistently 5th place, but not to any more wins. As you say it doesn't make Stoner the best racer in history or even able to defend a title.

MM is more the complete package overall.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Me talk out of my ...? you say I know nothing about ECU when I never claim too. But you and your doctorate from google know everything. Its indisputable that stoner was the only blah blah blah maybe if he did use more electronics he would have done better.

I'm done man. When you get to the point when you act superior like you actually know something that you didn't just look up then I can't read your hit anymore.

I guess you should have been here or watching during stoners career sorry you missed the debate.
Click to expand...

So do you quit or retire :p
 
michaelm said:
Finally an accurate statement by you on this thread.

I actually agree MM having extraordinary mental toughness, or perhaps being so lacking in fear that he doesn't even need to be mentally tough.

Fairly irrelevant to your contentions about Stoner however, and even if you are the world champion in your sport your experience is also of little relevance. Only 4 sportsmen have any experience relevant to the consequences of beating Valentino Rossi to a world title in the Rossi obsessed milieu of GP bike racing for the last 15 years, these riders being Nicky Hayden, Casey Stoner, Jorge Lorenzo and Marc Marquez, although the likes of Max Biaggi, Sete Gibernau and Toni Elias have experience of some relevance given what they copped for winning races against him occasionally, in Elias's case even though that was only once.
Click to expand...

None of us could ever imagine the amount of pressure it is to be a motogp champion. But some have a better clue than others of what its like to be a world champion. And that knowledge could never be passed down.
 
birdman said:
The question is would MM have done any better in 2008 on a Ducati? Obviously I'm biased but I don't think there's been a rider in the history of the sport that could have rode that Ducati faster than Stoner, regardless of how many championships they have. More consistently maybe, as in consistently 5th place, but not to any more wins. As you say it doesn't make Stoner the best racer in history or even able to defend a title.

MM is more the complete package overall.
Click to expand...

Even I doubt it. But its not impossible. By my rational though Marc would have gotten better each season. He is a great adapter.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Me talk out of my ...? you say I know nothing about ECU when I never claim too. But you and your doctorate from google know everything. Its indisputable that stoner was the only blah blah blah maybe if he did use more electronics he would have done better.

I'm done man. When you get to the point when you act superior like you actually know something that you didn't just look up then I can't read your hit anymore.

I guess you should have been here or watching during stoners career sorry you missed the debate.
Click to expand...

You were rather dismissive of what is a fact because it doesn't fit into your agenda.

If you're going to make the post at least be ready to handle any heat it brings you.
 
JPSLotus said:
Dubs is going fishing now.

The heat of this topic was too much.

Now he knows what it's like to get tired of something, just like Stoner.

Mission accomplished.
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And I for one am glad it only took 23 pages of some of the most compelling and rivetting text I have ever had the pleasure of reading about 5 words of ....:rolleyes:
 
JPSLotus said:
Dubs is going fishing now.

The heat of this topic was too much.

Now he knows what it's like to get tired of something, just like Stoner.

Mission accomplished.
Click to expand...

Alright I'll come back but this is just a test. I may post in a race thread or two but thats it, I'm not coming back full time. .... you Mediaps I hate you. Lets go fishing bro.
 

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