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Dovi not pulling any punches

AJV80 said:
I can appreciate his talent and he certainly wouldn't win every race but would certainly be riding at the pointy end of the field. He would be a safe bet if he rode at Pi though, he was always strong at his home track. I don't tend to believe in the conspiracy theories that get thrown around. I also stopped believing in Santa and unicorns a long time ago.

I think Stoner is a great rider, much like MM, JL and VR are great riders. I get that people have rider they like and others they dislike butI don't see the point of why people hate on riders, but each to their own i guess.
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MM and Stoner are on another level when they ride. JLo a VR can't touch them when MM & CS are on it. So when things don't seem to be adding up I think its okay to dissect them. We are just fans on the internet, Im not trying to be a dr. If they cant handle it then there i no way a rider will be able to handle racing either. I dissect the riders I like too I don't discriminate. I don't claim to be a psy specialist but I do understand a racers mentality. The amount of anger thrown my way because I believe it to be something mental and not a conspiracy has been more than Casey could ever handle. But this only came up because of what Dovi said, I couldn't let that pass without a few pages of debating.
 
Well Dub, it wasn't something physical that stopped CS racing, so yeah, of course it must be something mental. But what exactly is conjecture. Personally, I don't care. I prefer to see riders retire (relatively) healthy. Which, happily, seems to be more likely these days.
BTW #1 quitter: Poggiali.
Cod Psych: Quitting super talent/mental strength lack/etc/snooore. If I'm allowed to evaluate. Maybe not.
 
Dr No said:
Well Dub, it wasn't something physical that stopped CS racing, so yeah, of course it must be something mental. But what exactly is conjecture. Personally, I don't care. I prefer to see riders retire (relatively) healthy. Which, happily, seems to be more likely these days.
BTW #1 quitter: Poggiali.
Cod Psych: Quitting super talent/mental strength lack/etc/snooore. If I'm allowed to evaluate. Maybe not.
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Just because I have negative things to say about him doesn't mean I want him to get hurt. I don't wan't to see any rider hurt. Only person I know that wants to see a rider hurt is Cal. He really has something against that Cal Crutchlow guy.

Yet everyone loves to play cod psych with Iannone nobodies got a problem with that.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
MM and Stoner are on another level when they ride. JLo a VR can't touch them when MM & CS are on it.
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To be fair, its very hard to touch Lorenzo too when he's in his mantequilla zone and riding in good conditions.

Rossi... I'd say he doesn't have that tear away pace but then you see something like Laguna Seca '08 where Stoner was in the zone (to the point where he crashed, got back up and still finished the race 15 secs ahead of Vermeulen) but Rossi still matched him lap for lap. Still.. absolute speed isn't really one of Rossi's many strengths.
 
JKant said:
To be fair, its very hard to touch Lorenzo too when he's in his mantequilla zone and riding in good conditions.

Rossi... I'd say he doesn't have that tear away pace but then you see something like Laguna Seca '08 where Stoner was in the zone (to the point where he crashed, got back up and still finished the race 15 secs ahead of Vermeulen) but Rossi still matched him lap for lap. Still.. absolute speed isn't really one of Rossi's many strengths.
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Rossi's biggest strength was race day pace. He would not let riders get away. He'd ride above his pace and it almost looked like he was stalking riders like prey. It was beautiful.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Rossi's biggest strength was race day pace. He would not let riders get away. He'd ride above his pace and it almost looked like he was stalking riders like prey. It was beautiful.
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Well its not all in the past. He's of course much older and less physically capable today but you can still see shades of a much younger Rossi. For example, Pedrosa at Misano and Marquez at Aragon were very clearly faster (and by significant margin) but still had to put in a big effort to break away from Rossi (almost two laps in both cases IIRC).
 
JKant said:
Well its not all in the past. He's of course much older and less physically capable today but you can still see shades of a much younger Rossi. For example, Pedrosa at Misano and Marquez at Aragon were very clearly faster (and by significant margin) but still had to put in a big effort to break away from Rossi (almost two laps in both cases IIRC).
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Yup totally agree. He's not getting better with age but he is aging well. Only wine and motokitty get better with age.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
But this only came up because of what Dovi said, I couldn't let that pass without a few pages of debating.
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Speaking of which ............. did he throw Ianonne under the bus? :p

Still waiting .......... :D




MdubSTYLIE said:
Rossi's biggest strength was race day pace. He would not let riders get away. He'd ride above his pace and it almost looked like he was stalking riders like prey. It was beautiful.
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Jumping to the Rossi comments later, IMO only here but Rossi is fast and competitive due to his pure racecraft rather than outright speed.

I have stated before and will happily do so again that Laguna Seca 2008 was the best racecraft v talent battle that I have seen (well, that immediately springs to mind) and was won by racecraft. It is only now that Marquez is on the scene that we are seeing a similar level of racecraft and even then, I am not convinced that MM is of the same in racecraft terms but can see that he is closer and a fast learner in that aspect.

Rossi is no slouch pace wise but he is still at the top in terms of wheel to wheel racecraft.
 
Gaz said:
Speaking of which ............. did he throw Ianonne under the bus? :p

Still waiting .......... :D






Jumping to the Rossi comments later, IMO only here but Rossi is fast and competitive due to his pure racecraft rather than outright speed.

I have stated before and will happily do so again that Laguna Seca 2008 was the best racecraft v talent battle that I have seen (well, that immediately springs to mind) and was won by racecraft. It is only now that Marquez is on the scene that we are seeing a similar level of racecraft and even then, I am not convinced that MM is of the same in racecraft terms but can see that he is closer and a fast learner in that aspect.

Rossi is no slouch pace wise but he is still at the top in terms of wheel to wheel racecraft.
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He spoke the truth about Ianonne the truth we pretty much all believe to be true. As he did about Stoner. :p
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
He spoke the truth about Ianonne the truth we pretty much all believe to be true. As he did about Stoner. :p
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But did that truth involve throwing his team mate under the bus as some accused CS of doing even when CS did not make comments of this very nature (he did criticise Melandri's lack of capability to adjust)?

BTW, I do feel that given much of the Ianonne social media presence and comments attributed in articles that Dovi is 100% correct about Ianonne as well, but that may well be the way Ianonne works (intense and in his own world somewhat).

As for his comments on CS, as I stated 14 pages back, no surprise there as (and as we discussed) CS is one of those ridiculously intense athletes who is in their own world whilst at work (plus let us not forget, his arrival at HRC pushed Dovi out of the team eventually) but his comments also showed that CS' retirement was the right call.



Edited. According to people I know who have had interactions with CS at the track (and I had said this previously), whilst CS was ridiculously intense to the point of brutal rudeness, he was anything but to officials involved and was always respectful to officials at race meets (we are talking flaggies etc as his issues within the tower are well documented)
 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
MM and Stoner are on another level when they ride. JLo a VR can't touch them when MM & CS are on it. So when things don't seem to be adding up I think its okay to dissect them. We are just fans on the internet, Im not trying to be a dr. If they cant handle it then there i no way a rider will be able to handle racing either. I dissect the riders I like too I don't discriminate. I don't claim to be a psy specialist but I do understand a racers mentality. The amount of anger thrown my way because I believe it to be something mental and not a conspiracy has been more than Casey could ever handle. But this only came up because of what Dovi said, I couldn't let that pass without a few pages of debating.
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You can believe whatever you like, but what Povol contends, in regard to 2012 anyway, is not a conspiracy theory, but a matter of historical record, and was done quite openly; after Stoner had been 0.5 -1.0 second a lap faster than the field in initial testing Dorna changed the weight limit after the 2012 Honda bike had been developed for a year under the weight limit set by the original regulations for the new formula, altering the behaviour and performance of the bike and leading to a chatter problem which had not previously existed. The hard tyre which Stoner preferred and with and for which the bike had been developed was also removed mid-season. That was a full stop.

There is a difference between Stoner and Iannone, one has won 2 premier class titles and 38 premier class races, something you and JK seem unable to grasp, the other 1 race. There ain't no such thing as a mentally weak rider lacking the mentality of a champion who has ridden 11 and 10 race winning championship seasons, and I object to you disdaining Stoner, which is fairly obviously your true endeavour, on the basis of non-existent theoretical ........ when again it is a matter of record he has ridden as well and with as much focus as any rider has ever ridden for 2 full premier class seasons, 2 being a number greater than 0.

I think many mean "stupid" rather than "crazy" when they apply the common soubriquet to Iannone btw, and the stance against cod psychology is personal on my part and trying to divert to what other posters say doesn't help you in our debate.
 
Gaz said:
But did that truth involve throwing his team mate under the bus as some accused CS of doing even when CS did not make comments of this very nature (he did criticise Melandri's lack of capability to adjust)?

BTW, I do feel that given much of the Ianonne social media presence and comments attributed in articles that Dovi is 100% correct about Ianonne as well, but that may well be the way Ianonne works (intense and in his own world somewhat).

As for his comments on CS, as I stated 14 pages back, no surprise there as (and as we discussed) CS is one of those ridiculously intense athletes who is in their own world whilst at work (plus let us not forget, his arrival at HRC pushed Dovi out of the team eventually) but his comments also showed that CS' retirement was the right call.



Edited. According to people I know who have had interactions with CS at the track (and I had said this previously), whilst CS was ridiculously intense to the point of brutal rudeness, he was anything but to officials involved and was always respectful to officials at race meets (we are talking flaggies etc as his issues within the tower are well documented)
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He wasn't very nice to the corner marshals at Jerez.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
He wasn't very nice to the corner marshals at Jerez.
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IMO deservedly so when you look back at the history of the event but he never struck out at a corner marshall (that was saved for RdP) as others have done, even so recently as this year so I do wait your criticism of those riders as well for being petulant :p


Actually, if you watch many riders who fall they will swing arms at, push out of the way, stomp off, abuse etc corner marshalls and even medical staff
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
He spoke the truth about Ianonne the truth we pretty much all believe to be true. As he did about Stoner. :p
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What, that his 2 championships and 38 race wins don't count because you don't like him?

Whether Dovi likes him or not is similarly irrelevant. As I have said, in the year during which he was Dovi's team-mate he won 10 races and the world championship, so whatever mentality he may have had was irrefutably the mentality of a champion. He also as I recall made his settings and data freely available to his team-mates. What else was required exactly?.
 
michaelm said:
You can believe whatever you like, but what Povol contends, in regard to 2012 anyway, is not a conspiracy theory, but a matter of historical record, and was done quite openly; after Stoner had been 0.5 -1.0 second a lap faster than the field in initial testing Dorna changed the weight limit after the 2012 Honda bike had been developed for a year under the weight limit set by the original regulations for the new formula, altering the behaviour and performance of the bike and leading to a chatter problem which had not previously existed. The hard tyre which Stoner preferred and with and for which the bike had been developed was also removed mid-season. That was a full stop.

There is a difference between Stoner and Iannone, one has won 2 premier class titles and 38 premier class races, something you and JK seem unable to grasp, the other 1 race. There ain't no such thing as a mentally weak rider lacking the mentality of a champion who has ridden 11 and 10 race winning championship seasons, and I object to you disdaining Stoner, which is fairly obviously your true endeavour, on the basis of non-existent theoretical ........ when again it is a matter of record he has ridden as well and with as much focus as any rider has ever ridden for 2 full premier class seasons, 2 being a number greater than 0.

I think many mean "stupid" rather than "crazy" when they apply the common soubriquet to Iannone btw, and the stance against cod psychology is personal on my part and trying to divert to what other posters say doesn't help you in our debate.
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So the added weight thing that happened to Honda, has that never happened to any other manufacturer late into development in racing? I'm not saying I agree with it but that .... happens.

Ianonne and Stoner? What are you talking about? I wouldn't waste my breath trying to compare those two. The only one I would compare CS to is MM who has proven to me to be mental stronger than any rider I have watched ride. He's been scrutinized, abused by his idol, called a murderous rider yet he still smiles learns, adapts, developes. If Stoner had half that mentality he would have won a lot more championships until Marc showed up at least. I don't care about he .... stacked against him I care about how he responded.
 
michaelm said:
What, that his 2 championships and 38 race wins don't count because you don't like him?

Whether Dovi likes him or not is similarly irrelevant. As I have said, in the year during which he was Dovi's team-mate he won 10 races and the world championship, so whatever mentality he may have had was irrefutably the mentality of a champion. He also as I recall made his settings and data freely available to his team-mates. What else was required exactly?.
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No man It doesn't make his 2 title irrelevant. Nothing does I'm not trying to take his titles away. Hes not Lance ....... Armstrong bro. Dovi said CS was angry and mean to people, that just goes along with what I and others always said. He can keep his 2 & 38. Whats Marcs win total out of curiosity?
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
So the added weight thing that happened to Honda, has that never happened to any other manufacturer late into development in racing? I'm not saying I agree with it but that .... happens.
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It is an extremely rare thing to occur that late in the piece and from memory only, there is no precedent (that does not mean that there is no prior example but that I cannot recall one) and was said (rumoured) to in part be because Ducati I think it was could not make their bike lighter so the weight was increased to 'even' the playing field and was done 2 months or so prior (can be corrected there)

See, the highlighted is why people take offence/umbrage with the derision as nowhere in his reported comments (posted below) does Dovi say 'mean to people', he says angry. Angry and 'mean to people' are two distinctly different things with one being an attitude and the second an action

Obviously, the relationship has changed a lot because now if he can help you, he does. He's very positive and he has changed the way he looks at the races.

He hated everybody before, and that led to him shutting down and always being angry. Now he does what he wants, he's much more relaxed, he comes over and talks to you and spends time with you.

What does he bring? Good things. Let's say he's not the usual test rider, like Pirro, who is completely involved in the development of the bike. Casey has done a few tests and has given his opinion, but his influence this year has not been big because he hasn't always been there.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
No man It doesn't make his 2 title irrelevant. Nothing does I'm not trying to take his titles away. Hes not Lance ....... Armstrong bro. Dovi said CS was angry and mean to people, that just goes along with what I and others always said. He can keep his 2 & 38. Whats Marcs win total out of curiosity?
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Marc will almost certainly surpass him for premier class title wins this year, and for premier class race wins next year in all likelihood. Your point is?
 

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