Dovi not pulling any punches

Gaz · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
I wish this to be true if you believe me or not. I enjoyed watching him ride and wish he was still around. But that wouldnt stop me from picking him apart thats part of what that retirement money cost.

Mate, I do believe that you have no qualms with him on track and likely greatly enjoyed what he could do, your issues with him are off track and into subsequent retirement and that is where I do not have the issue as to me he has retired and irrespective of whether the reasons are valid or ........, he made the call and now he must live with that decision now and into teh future.

Just as you will pick apart him, I will debate the points you raise and may well agree with some but that is what this place is about, your side, my side and the fence sitters.

MdubSTYLIE said:
You know I have an interesting take on the event of last year. It proved that Rossi is a complete .... but I applaud DORNA for not deciding the title on the spot. I like to think any rider first or second in points where a ride threw penalty would decide the title is worth some time to think about. I could totally be wrong about that, but its not like they let Rossi appeal for 3 years serving his penalty then(NFL reference). It for all purposes sealed the deal as long as Marc could stay alive. Can you tell me a time the title was decide by a penalty?

On the 'keeping the championship alive' I have a serious issue as if an offence occurred in race 1 of the season that would have earned penalty X, then that offence should incur the same penalty throughout the season irrespective of who is involved as all that does is show favouritism to the high achievers.

If you recall at the time (and even today) I had a vastly different take on the way the issue was handled than many as I have no issue at all with the manner in which the penalty unfolded, but may have reservations about the end penalty imposed. For me that was not about the championship but about 'due process' as whilst the first viewing was not good one needs to consider all provable aspects but will leave it there lest we re-open a can of worms (and that is not implying anything against MM).

Further on the penalty, Rossi did get less points than did Fenati for a similar offence but it must be stressed that it was similar and not the same so one would need to look at both to decide if fair or unfair (IMO but Fenati was lucky given what he did and admitted to).

Does you feeling regarding titles not being decided by penalties also apply to positional finishes within a championship as for many their position in the field could mean earning or riding potential for the year after.

As for titles on penalties I look at it this way, if there is to be no deterrent then why not deliberately ram your competitor off the track?

My approach, do the crime do the time irrespective of when you did that crime.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

Gaz said:
Mate, I do believe that you have no qualms with him on track and likely greatly enjoyed what he could do, your issues with him are off track and into subsequent retirement and that is where I do not have the issue as to me he has retired and irrespective of whether the reasons are valid or ........, he made the call and now he must live with that decision now and into teh future.

Just as you will pick apart him, I will debate the points you raise and may well agree with some but that is what this place is about, your side, my side and the fence sitters.

I had issues with his warm up lap but thats beside the point.

I blame my new friend and anti-boner Dovi for bringing this up. I just told JPS I didn't want to talk about it and then Dovi has to troll my ....

Gaz said:
On the 'keeping the championship alive' I have a serious issue as if an offence occurred in race 1 of the season that would have earned penalty X, then that offence should incur the same penalty throughout the season irrespective of who is involved as all that does is show favouritism to the high achievers.

If you recall at the time (and even today) I had a vastly different take on the way the issue was handled than many as I have no issue at all with the manner in which the penalty unfolded, but may have reservations about the end penalty imposed. For me that was not about the championship but about 'due process' as whilst the first viewing was not good one needs to consider all provable aspects but will leave it there lest we re-open a can of worms (and that is not implying anything against MM).

Further on the penalty, Rossi did get less points than did Fenati for a similar offence but it must be stressed that it was similar and not the same so one would need to look at both to decide if fair or unfair (IMO but Fenati was lucky given what he did and admitted to).

Does you feeling regarding titles not being decided by penalties also apply to positional finishes within a championship as for many their position in the field could mean earning or riding potential for the year after.

As for titles on penalties I look at it this way, if there is to be no deterrent then why not deliberately ram your competitor off the track?

My approach, do the crime do the time irrespective of when you did that crime.

I pretty much agree with your prospective. Rossi was lucky his kick was so sneaky. If it had been blatant I'd hope they throw the black flag at his .... I'd like to see him pick that out of there.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 7, 2016

michaelm said:
The answer to this one rather than 38 is 23, as in wins for Ducati, as against no dry wins for anyone else on a Ducati 800 bike, including the great yellow God who riding a factory Yamaha won 2 of the titles Stoner "failed" to win at Ducati. By almost any assessment made by taking a line through other riders who got on the thing he massively outperformed the Ducati 800 bike, for which your mate JK, who purports to champion underdogs, spitefully and obsessively denigrates him. This ain't 2009 or 2010 any more, history records what happened in 2011 when Valentino got on that pig and proved everything you and other Stoner critics, which ironically had included Valentino himself, had been saying about Stoner's riding on the Ducati completely wrong.

Do you also dispute other recorded history such as the late weight change to the 2012 Honda bike on which Stoner had totally dominated initial preseason testing, or the Dorna engineered unprecedented rider's vote to remove Stoner's preferred tyre in 2012, in favour of a tyre he correctly predicted would fail in race conditions, when there was no reason at all both tyres could not have been available going forward.

You can dislike his personality all you like, entirely your opinion to which you are very much entitled, but can both .... off in regard to questioning either his effort or his results; hate him as you will, all the spiteful spindoctoring in the world won't change his results, mostly on inferior equipment.

Damn Mike, calm down buddy. Im getting worried about you. Should I call a doctor?
You seem to be hung up on the 38 wins. Thats like bringing up the mundalito. They don't mean .... if theres not a big trophy at the end. I have always said that he was capable of more, but his head was in the way.
The comparison to Rossi on the Duc is a tired and lazy argument. Lorenzo is a more talented rider than Rossi and does anyone believe he will have success on the Duc. The answer is no because his style will not match. Rossi never had a chance of success on a bike that favored a dirt track style rider.
If you check my comments from back then, I maintained that it will be a failure.
Outside of Hayden there have been no other riders in the last 10 years that could professionally race dirt track, and no Povol, MM could not. A crf 450 around a 200 meter track, is not true dirt track racing. You know I love Hayden but he doesn't have that extra push that wrings the most out of bikes.

Back in my heydey I could ride the .... out of a BMX bike. I can't ride a mountain bike worth a ..... The first time I jumped, I face planted and had no idea how it happened. I still hate mountain bikes. I can't grasp the physics. I don't have the skill set because I didn't grow up on them. I need lessons from Barry.
Stoner has a skill set that just about noone in his era had. You like to say that he is the only one that could ride around the problems. True statement, but did you ever ponder why that is? Is he a better rider than everyone else because he could win on the Ducati or is it not possible that he is the only rider with the skill set to ride it? He was the perfect match for that unruly bike. The transition year was the perfect storm for his skill set, that bike and Hondas woes.

Gaz · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Your right I can and I do and my main reason is 2007. If he could ride around the totally inferior bike with his superior talent then why couldn't he do it again? I think it has to do with pressure.

The answer my friend, is blowing in the Rossi biography ........

I will however agree that 2008 I do think there was added pressure and that CS did not know how to handle this pressure (I suspect that the pressure was self applied) but in short when you look at the stories from around the time and that emanated from Rossi's Ducati time I feel you get a better picture.

Marlboro clearly did not want Stoner in the first place - remember he was said to be the third choice and only there in the interim until Melandri appeared in 2008 (Capirossi was to stay but the WC changed all that).

Then you have Ducati who were somewhat blown away by the title and subsequently as has been reported many times they took the Honda approach of 'we know what is best, not the riders' and so they developed their bikes based on the engineers and data, not on rider input and feel to explain the data (this is the short version but borne out by all involved until Gigi D'allignia came along). This approach would have placed added pressure as you have a world champion riding a bike that the engineers feel was improved from that which won the world title, but in fact had gone backwards (whilst the opposition had improved) and as such they (the engineers) could not believe that their work had a negative impact (much like telling a rider they did wrong really). This I feel is backed up by the Rossi/JB experience and their subsequent comments

Then in 2008 you had Melandri arrive and fail miserably. I mean, we talk of Rossi and his failure but IMO there is no greater failure on that Ducati than was Melandri and this fact is often overlooked when we talk of Stoner and how he 'coped' as the bike and factory combination destroyed Melandri.

So all up, you had oodles of pressure applied from external sources, together with the pressure that top flight athletes place on themselves which were exascerbated by the health issues of 2009 and all whilst constantly being derided by media and fans alike. To not feel disenchantment would show to me that he was a robot and not human so I have no issues with his attitude even if/when I do not fully agree with him.

MdubSTYLIE said:
Well I have news for you. I feel I have more knowledge of the psy of a racer than pt. As I spent more time of my life as a racer than trainer so I do have some insight into the mentality of a racer. A lot actually. I'd happily share a story about why I feel this way that may make more sense but not on the forum.

Thing with Psyche is that all athletes are wired differently, despite all athletes being wired similarly in so many aspects

I have been around top level racers (car and bike) as well as cricketers and rugby league players and I have to admit that it is a very interesting to be around these people when they are 'in the zone' or 'at work' as they would put it.

Thing is as you would know, some are very laid back and you would think that they have failed to prepare where others are so intense it is fearsome and yet both types will go out there and rock it ........... and both will be extremely pissed off and vocal if they .... up

Gaz · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
I had issues with his warm up lap but thats beside the point. I blame my new friend and anti-boner Dovi for bringing this up. I just told JPS I didn't want to talk about it and then Dovi has to troll my ....

Damn Dovi but man, you just cannot accept responsibility for doing it yourself can you

............ so back to my earlier question ........... has he thrown Ianonne under a bus?

Actually, that aside the comments are interesting and were clearly targeted for a purpose by the journalist (not suggesting negative, but sounds/reads more as a team mate discussion).

The other point that seems missed (although I mentioned it and it was skipped) were in relation to Stoner as Dovi's comments do seem to support that the decision made by Stoner was correct as he has gone from an angry ant to a chatty help out type. IMO only, but that to me is a positive side to the whole BS around the retirement/quit components as in teh end, looking from outside in those that knew him see a better him (if that makes sense).

michaelm · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Your right I can and I do and my main reason is 2007. If he could ride around the totally inferior bike with his superior talent then why couldn't he do it again? I think it has to do with pressure.

Well I have news for you. I feel I have more knowledge of the psy of a racer than pt. As I spent more time of my life as a racer than trainer so I do have some insight into the mentality of a racer. A lot actually. I'd happily share a story about why I feel this way that may make more sense but not on the forum.

I am very happy to believe that you help your clients including psychologically but you have never encountered Stoner personally and make sweeping judgements about his psychology over the Internet based on supposition.

I actually followed the story of Stoner's health issues in 2009 with some rigor including stuff which was only published in the Australian press, and what was eventually worked out by Australian doctors some of whom I know personally made sense to me medically.

And no, Stoner couldn't be expected to keep winning titles for Ducati against riders of the calibre of Valentino Rossi and Jorge Lorenzo on factory Yamahas in a series which has been an HRC and factory Yamaha duopoly for all but 3 years in the last 35 or so, particularly when the rules were changed such that Ducati could no longer have tyres which suited their bike.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

Gaz said:
The answer my friend, is blowing in the Rossi biography ........

I will however agree that 2008 I do think there was added pressure and that CS did not know how to handle this pressure (I suspect that the pressure was self applied) but in short when you look at the stories from around the time and that emanated from Rossi's Ducati time I feel you get a better picture.

Marlboro clearly did not want Stoner in the first place - remember he was said to be the third choice and only there in the interim until Melandri appeared in 2008 (Capirossi was to stay but the WC changed all that).

Then you have Ducati who were somewhat blown away by the title and subsequently as has been reported many times they took the Honda approach of 'we know what is best, not the riders' and so they developed their bikes based on the engineers and data, not on rider input and feel to explain the data (this is the short version but borne out by all involved until Gigi D'allignia came along). This approach would have placed added pressure as you have a world champion riding a bike that the engineers feel was improved from that which won the world title, but in fact had gone backwards (whilst the opposition had improved) and as such they (the engineers) could not believe that their work had a negative impact (much like telling a rider they did wrong really). This I feel is backed up by the Rossi/JB experience and their subsequent comments

Then in 2008 you had Melandri arrive and fail miserably. I mean, we talk of Rossi and his failure but IMO there is no greater failure on that Ducati than was Melandri and this fact is often overlooked when we talk of Stoner and how he 'coped' as the bike and factory combination destroyed Melandri.

So all up, you had oodles of pressure applied from external sources, together with the pressure that top flight athletes place on themselves which were exascerbated by the health issues of 2009 and all whilst constantly being derided by media and fans alike. To not feel disenchantment would show to me that he was a robot and not human so I have no issues with his attitude even if/when I do not fully agree with him.

Thing with Psyche is that all athletes are wired differently, despite all athletes being wired similarly in so many aspects

I have been around top level racers (car and bike) as well as cricketers and rugby league players and I have to admit that it is a very interesting to be around these people when they are 'in the zone' or 'at work' as they would put it.

Thing is as you would know, some are very laid back and you would think that they have failed to prepare where others are so intense it is fearsome and yet both types will go out there and rock it ........... and both will be extremely pissed off and vocal if they .... up

Great observation Gaz. They(champions) all feel they same pressure and the same anxiety its how they show it on the outside. Both are trying to do what they do before a race to prepare. Routine gets your mind of the pressure. To help ignore the time bomb thats exploding in their chest. They all feel it. But not everyone knows how to handle it.

I think its worse in racers than other athletes because its all about yourself no team to rely on or blame or help. It intense and its not for everyone.

Gaz · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Great observation Gaz. They(champions) all feel they same pressure and the same anxiety its how they show it on the outside. Both are trying to do what they do before a race to prepare. Routine gets your mind of the pressure. To help ignore the time bomb thats exploding in their chest. They all feel it. But not everyone knows how to handle it.

I think its worse in racers than other athletes because its all about yourself no team to rely on or blame or help. It intense and its not for everyone.

Absolutely and whist I know some who have done well, I also know a number who were more 'naturally' talented but who could not handle the intensity or could not develop the intensity that defined high level performers from the elite level of performers (talking national level here).

I have ridden bikes with a guy who has won world championships in motorcycle racing and when he rides on the road he is as intense as he ever was at the track (that comment was made by his brother) although now as he is retired I am not sure if the same intensity applies (have not seen him for a few years and was riding with him through mutual mates)

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

michaelm said:
I am very happy to believe that you help your clients including psychologically but you have never encountered Stoner personally and make sweeping judgements about his psychology over the Internet based on supposition.

I actually followed the story of Stoner's health issues in 2009 with some rigor including stuff which was only published in the Australian press, and what was eventually worked out by Australian doctors some of whom I know personally made sense to me medically.

And no, Stoner couldn't be expected to keep winning titles for Ducati against riders of the calibre of Valentino Rossi and Jorge Lorenzo on factory Yamahas in a series which has been an HRC and factory Yamaha duopoly for all but 3 years in the last 35 or so, particularly when the rules were changed such that Ducati could no longer have tyres which suited their bike.

I know you followed the Stoner health issues as did I. I do know you have more insight in it than I and you know I respect that but it doesn't mean the cause isn't debatable. Especially since I have witnessed things like him in my personal experiences.

So what happened at HRC? Its seems like the same story.

JPSLotus · Oct 7, 2016

At least you will have something else to discuss in a couple of weeks when Stoner wild cards at Phillip Island.

birdman · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Your right I can and I do and my main reason is 2007. If he could ride around the totally inferior bike with his superior talent then why couldn't he do it again? I think it has to do with pressure.

Well I have news for you. I feel I have more knowledge of the psy of a racer than pt. As I spent more time of my life as a racer than trainer so I do have some insight into the mentality of a racer. A lot actually. I'd happily share a story about why I feel this way that may make more sense but not on the forum.

The riders Stoner competed against, including Lorenzo and Rossi, generally all agree he was the best out there, at least in terms of what he could do on a bike. What more have you ever really wanted as an athlete than to be acknowledged by your peers? It's a good enough legacy for me.

He was also angry, whinged a lot, and possibly was not the best under pressure. He definitely had issues, his mom had to school him from home, he was extremely shy and lacked social skills. He didn't have the classic mentality of a champion. More likely his talent was enough to overcome these considerable shortcomings. You say your an athlete, don't you thing this adds to his achievements, rather than detract? I mean wouldn't it just be great to be the ultimate athlete both mentally and physically. Let's combine the mentality of say Bayliss with the talent of Stoner. This ain't fantasy league, they are born not engineered.

You sound like you wish he was something else? Which I find strange. Get over it. He's not a cool jock instead of a shy angry buck tooth. Goes to something Jumkie was saying about society not accepting victims or people who are different or not fiting in to expectations. Rossi isn't exactly my cup of tea, but that's his personality I don't wish he was anything other than his sleep deprived bum picking self.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

Gaz said:
Absolutely and whist I know some who have done well, I also know a number who were more 'naturally' talented but who could not handle the intensity or could not develop the intensity that defined high level performers from the elite level of performers (talking national level here).

I have ridden bikes with a guy who has won world championships in motorcycle racing and when he rides on the road he is as intense as he ever was at the track (that comment was made by his brother) although now as he is retired I am not sure if the same intensity applies (have not seen him for a few years and was riding with him through mutual mates)

Talent is 20% racing 80% mental. And the more you win the more pressure you feel and that weighs on a riders mentality. Winning a championship is hard but the pressure of maintaining that level of riding is harder. Weighing even heavier on a riders mental. Thats to much for most people to handle. It can .... you up, destroy ones health. Pressure is a ....... disease.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

birdman said:
The riders Stoner competed against, including Lorenzo and Rossi, generally all agree he was the best out there, at least in terms of what he could do on a bike. What more have you ever really wanted as an athlete than to be acknowledged by your peers? It's a good enough legacy for me.

He was also angry, whinged a lot, and possibly was not the best under pressure. He definitely had issues, his mom had to school him from home, he was extremely shy and lacked social skills. He didn't have the classic mentality of a champion. More likely his talent was enough to overcome these considerable shortcomings. You say your an athlete, don't you thing this adds to his achievements, rather than detract? I mean wouldn't it just be great to be the ultimate athlete both mentally and physically. Let's combine the mentality of say Bayliss with the talent of Stoner. This ain't fantasy league, they are born not engineered.

You sound like you wish he was something else? Which I find strange. Get over it. He's not a cool jock instead of a shy angry buck tooth. Goes to something Jumkie was saying about society not accepting victims or people who are different or not fiting in to expectations. Rossi isn't exactly my cup of tea, but that's his personality I don't wish he was anything other than his sleep deprived bum picking self.

You know what I think you are right. I wish Stoner would have been everything I say he could have been. I'm sure you guys do too. I was a fan from his early days and he lost me. The same way I thought I would have never been a Marc fan from his early years, yet here we are.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 7, 2016

JPSLotus said:
At least you will have something else to discuss in a couple of weeks when Stoner wild cards at Phillip Island.

Oh... look who's back bringing up Stoner.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

JPSLotus said:
At least you will have something else to discuss in a couple of weeks when Stoner wild cards at Phillip Island.

That fact that you also went quiet had me worried it might be true. But I text the pope and he said not a snowballs chance in hell is stoner going to race PI.

birdman · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
You know what I think you are right. I wish Stoner would have been everything I say he could have been. I'm sure you guys do too. I was a fan from his early days and he lost me. The same way I thought I would have never been a Marc fan from his early years, yet here we are.

I went through a progression where I liked Gardner until Doohan and others said he was a prick, then I liked or even close to worshipped the pre leg injury Doohan until later when I thought he was a prick. So I really wanted Bayliss to make it by was disappointed to see he lacked the talent. First impression of Stoner, you guessed it, I thought he was a whiny little prick. Now I regret having this attitude and just count my blessings I got to see all of them ride bikes like gods, I don't care if they were pricks.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
That fact that you also went quiet had me worried it might be true. But I text the pope and he said not a snowballs chance in hell is stoner going to race PI.

Not all dumpsters are in a close proximity to wifi

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

birdman said:
I went through a progression where I liked Gardner until Doohan and others said he was a prick, then I liked or even close to worshipped the pre leg injury Doohan until later when I thought he was a prick. So I really wanted Bayliss to make it by was disappointed to see he lacked the talent. First impression of Stoner, you guessed it, I thought he was a whiny little prick. Now I regret having this attitude and just count my blessings I got to see all of them ride bikes like gods, I don't care if they were pricks.

I like Bayliss, I'm a big Westy fan and MCcoy as well.

I am very glad to have witnessed him also, I wish I still could. Maybe I'm still mad he bailed on me indy 09.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 7, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Not all dumpsters are in a close proximity to wifi

Does Jersey have Golds Gyms on every corner like Starbucks in Seattle? Just wondering.

JPSLotus · Oct 7, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
That fact that you also went quiet had me worried it might be true. But I text the pope and he said not a snowballs chance in hell is stoner going to race PI.

He's really been inactive on social media the past few weeks. Not a usual occurrence. I think he is hiding to get ready.

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