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Dovi not pulling any punches

Im not surprised that any of these guys are ...... Its just a shame that he couldn't do what most athletes do, and use that anger against his opponents on Sunday. Ive been saying this for years. Stoners talent is never in question. He didnt have the mentality of an athlete and thats what impeded his success and drove him from the game.

Aussie excuse machine doesn't need to do much to reply to arrant nonsense, as the other thread proved.

What constitutes athletic success in the world of the great JK, if 2 premier class world championships and 38 premier class race wins (currently 5th all time) does not, and was not Dovi himself totally eclipsed by Stoner and effectively ousted by him from that team (not by Stoner per se, HRC just considered him to be the business which Dovi unfortunately for him wasn't and isn't)?. Moreover the Q and A seems to have been focused on the question of team-mates, and the only time when Stoner was Dovi's team-mate as far as I am aware was in 2011, when whatever attitude he might then have had translated into a dominant championship win, with 10 race wins and a strong possibility he could have won 2 more races except for external circumstances.
 
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The thread is about a Dovi Q&A that happened to mention Stoner.

Actually, no one even noticed till Kant posted the bit about Stoner from the Q&A. Then to no one's surprise, it was like a lantern attracting a swarm of insects on a hot summer night...only instead of insects, it attracted Frick and Frack as usual. Though maybe you two aren't as far removed from insects as I thought.

For a guy who you were complaining about being talked about, you missed no chance to continue talking about him.

Is the gossip about two Italians not in agreement something we should seriously discuss. It reminds me of a ........ I once drove thru called New Jersey. The only thing I saw was trash in the gutters and italians talking ..... I am not sure what is new about that place. Maybe they're referring to the new piles of garbage that is stacked on the old piles of garbage.
I am going to start posting a picture of stoner for you every day while your at work. That way when you turn on your computer you'll .... your pants and have to walk around all day covered in spoo.
Maybe Im giving you too much credit, calling dumpster diving for used Tap Out shirts a job is stretching it
 
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Aussie excuse machine doesn't need to do much to reply to arrant nonsense, as the other thread proved.

What constitutes athletic success in the world of the great JK, if 2 premier class world championships and 38 premier class race wins (currently 5th all time) does not, and was not Dovi himself totally eclipsed by Stoner and effectively ousted by him from that team (not by Stoner per se, HRC just considered him to be the business which Dovi unfortunately for him wasn't and isn't)?. Moreover the Q and A seems to have been focused on the question of team-mates, and the only time when Stoner was Dovi's team-mate as far as I am aware was in 2011, when whatever attitude he might then have had translated into a dominant championship win, with 10 race wins and a strong possibility he could have won 2 more races except for external circumstances.

Should we start referring to Stoner as 38 times? You seem to like saying it
 
Should we start referring to Stoner as 38 times? You seem to like saying it

It continues to be the apposite reply to your continuing ludicrous contentions about Stoner lacking success/being a failure as a GP bike rider. If you wish to continue claiming same, I am happy to continue to point out his record, and the tedium involved is I would have thought at least as much your responsibility as mine.

You really need to remember your previous arguments, such as they are, better btw. Ironically given this thread you seem to have overlooked on the other thread that Dovi as well as Dani Pedrosa was on that massively superior HRC bike in 2011.
 
WTF!!! Its almost like some of you guys dont believe that Stoner is the greatest motogp rider we have ever seen!

Johnny and mdub are just looking for a husband in motogp riders, obviously, and we get it ...... you dont want to marry Stoner. But keep looking you'll find the perfect personality.
 
It continues to be the apposite reply to your continuing ludicrous contentions about Stoner lacking success/being a failure as a GP bike rider. If you wish to continue claiming same, I am happy to continue to point out his record, and the tedium involved is I would have thought at least as much your responsibility as mine.

You really need to remember your previous arguments, such as they are, better btw. Ironically given this thread you seem to have overlooked on the other thread that Dovi as well as Dani Pedrosa was on that massively superior HRC bike in 2011.

Not a lack of success rather not as much success as his talent could have/should have allowed. Jk and I have never doubt his talent only that his talent and record don't actually align.
 
WTF!!! Its almost like some of you guys dont believe that Stoner is the greatest motogp rider we have ever seen!

Johnny and mdub are just looking for a husband in motogp riders, obviously, and we get it ...... you dont want to marry Stoner. But keep looking you'll find the perfect personality.

Marc is my man. I need look no further. I still love you to b nutss.
 
Not a lack of success rather not as much success as his talent could have/should have allowed. Jk and I have never doubt his talent only that his talent and record don't actually align.

What, he should have won more titles riding for LCR and Ducati?

The one year I have always acknowledged he still had a strong opportunity to win even after Dorna's shenanigans (I fear as they appeared to also fear it would have been an absolute romp for him on the original version of the 2012 Honda) and failed to do so was 2012. He definitely didn't have the focus of his championship years that year, and if he had would/should have been leading the championship going to Indy imo. However in the end it was a crash at Indy which ended his title bid when he was still in strong contention having dominantly won the previous race, and whatever the contribution of rider error to that crash it was on a corner where several other riders crashed that weekend and at a track concerning which his contention that the surface was substandard the previous year became the universal view in 2012, with the track subsequently being re-surfaced.
 
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Not a lack of success rather not as much success as his talent could have/should have allowed. Jk and I have never doubt his talent only that his talent and record don't actually align.

Actually I would say that his record does align with the talent during the time he chose to utilise that talent in the public arena.

Sure he could have stayed longer and were that the case he could/should have won more, but he chose to leave and thus his record should be judged on what occurred, not what may have occurred were he to continue. Much that you cannot judge someone who was never given an opportunity, you likewise cannot judge based on someone who did not take the opportunity were it offered.

IMO to say that his talent and record does not align is interesting as no doubt that there are many others who should rate worse given the opportunity afforded over lengthy periods of time and their talents.

Further IMO, there are very few who will achieve the highest level of results in most sports and interestingly often when that sport is so dominated we (the fandom) whinge of the domination by the individual/team but we then so lament and whinge when they are gone as well. .... we fans are whingers. :D
 
What, he should have won more titles riding for LCR and Ducati?

The one year I have always acknowledged he still had a strong opportunity to win even after Dorna's shenanigans (I fear as they appeared to also fear it would have been an absolute romp for him on the original version of the 2012 Honda) and failed to do so was 2012. He definitely didn't have the focus of his championship years that year, and if he had would/should have been leading the championship going to Indy imo. However in the end it was a crash at Indy which ended his title bid when he was still in strong contention having dominantly won the previous race, and whatever the contribution of rider error to that crash it was on a corner where several other riders crashed that weekend and at a track concerning which his contention that the surface was substandard the previous year became the universal view in 2012, with the track subsequently being re-surfaced.

Actually I would say that his record does align with the talent during the time he chose to utilise that talent in the public arena.

Sure he could have stayed longer and were that the case he could/should have won more, but he chose to leave and thus his record should be judged on what occurred, not what may have occurred were he to continue. Much that you cannot judge someone who was never given an opportunity, you likewise cannot judge based on someone who did not take the opportunity were it offered.

IMO to say that his talent and record does not align is interesting as no doubt that there are many others who should rate worse given the opportunity afforded over lengthy periods of time and their talents.

Further IMO, there are very few who will achieve the highest level of results in most sports and interestingly often when that sport is so dominated we (the fandom) whinge of the domination by the individual/team but we then so lament and whinge when they are gone as well. .... we fans are whingers. :D

No I don't buy into the fact that his talent and achievement align. I don't buy into the fact that the cards were so stacked against him the he could only win 2 titles. Thats the prospective of his fans. He was unable to ride around changing rules when other were could. That means a. he wasn't as good as y'all say he was or b. he wasn't mentally qualified for the job. But to say he is great but the cards were stacked against him is ......... The person you say the cards are stacked for didn't dominate during that time so whats the problem then?
 
No I don't buy into the fact that his talent and achievement align. I don't buy into the fact that the cards were so stacked against him the he could only win 2 titles. Thats the prospective of his fans. He was unable to ride around changing rules when other were could. That means a. he wasn't as good as y'all say he was or b. he wasn't mentally qualified for the job. But to say he is great but the cards were stacked against him is ......... The person you say the cards are stacked for didn't dominate during that time so whats the problem then?

How the .... did you get that from what I posted.

Nowhere do I say that the rules were changed to stop him winning .......... and nowhere do I say that rules were stacked to benefit others (excepting DORNA) ............ maybe you need to read again or revisit the conspiracy conundrum

It is well recorded that the Ducati was a total dog of a bike and what he achieved was remarkable in more ways than one. So remarkable that his most ardent 'non fan' in the paddock (Rossi) was later to state that he has no idea how Stoner managed to ride and win on that bike (said during Rossi's tenure at Ducati).

On Honda, he won first year out (the last of the 800cc era) and was performing well before injury at Indy resulted in a few races out before he returned and once again blitzed the Island and finished the season with good results.

Sure there were rule changes at the start of 2012 that affected Honda with the changes said to have been precipitated by other teams but effectively all riders voted for a tyre, just that the tyre construction was such that Stoner and Honda struggled for a number of races with chatter and other effects (remember that this was also the weight implementation year from memory).

BTW, who else rode around the changes and FWIW, in 2012 Stoner won 3 of the first 7 races (JL won the other 4) and 5 of the seasons 15 in which he competed (Lorenzo won 6 and the title, Pedrosa won 7 with 6 in the last 8) so I would say that he rode around the issues pretty well for someone who seemingly could not and cannot (tell that to Ducati btw).

As for not being mentally qualified, you may be right as after all he has little background in motorcycle racing to a high level and thus would not know how to handle adversity given his background and experiences having had all handed to him on a silver platter, thus he really was somewhat out of his depth as the pressure was applied and well, the rest is history as he knocked back 20 million and retired (quit for JKD) to spend time with the family.

Fact is that you and JKD do not like the personality of Stoner, you don't respect that he chose to leave before you feel he should have given his ability and as such you feel somewhat robbed of what may have been (good, bad or ridicule opportunities). A further fact is that he is a retired multi-millionaire who remains sought out for opinion and input by certain factories as well as some media, and all before the age of 30 and this grates given the expectations that some have of their athletes who they feel should still be competing.

IMO here but best to go when you choose rather than be put to pasture as happens with so many who stay to long and become somewhat parodies of their former selves or are forced to compete on uncompetitive machinery

And just for you, a pic of three Aussie no hopers together.

CuGah0xWcAAeejQ.jpg
 
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So to some of the accusers, has Dovi thrown his team mate under the bus a little here?

Given recent discussions it may seem that way so interested to see what other feel in that aspect
 
No I don't buy into the fact that his talent and achievement align. I don't buy into the fact that the cards were so stacked against him the he could only win 2 titles. Thats the prospective of his fans. He was unable to ride around changing rules when other were could. That means a. he wasn't as good as y'all say he was or b. he wasn't mentally qualified for the job. But to say he is great but the cards were stacked against him is ......... The person you say the cards are stacked for didn't dominate during that time so whats the problem then?

The answer to this one rather than 38 is 23, as in wins for Ducati, as against no dry wins for anyone else on a Ducati 800 bike, including the great yellow God who riding a factory Yamaha won 2 of the titles Stoner "failed" to win at Ducati. By almost any assessment made by taking a line through other riders who got on the thing he massively outperformed the Ducati 800 bike, for which your mate JK, who purports to champion underdogs, spitefully and obsessively denigrates him. This ain't 2009 or 2010 any more, history records what happened in 2011 when Valentino got on that pig and proved everything you and other Stoner critics, which ironically had included Valentino himself, had been saying about Stoner's riding on the Ducati completely wrong.

Do you also dispute other recorded history such as the late weight change to the 2012 Honda bike on which Stoner had totally dominated initial preseason testing, or the Dorna engineered unprecedented rider's vote to remove Stoner's preferred tyre in 2012, in favour of a tyre he correctly predicted would fail in race conditions, when there was no reason at all both tyres could not have been available going forward.

You can dislike his personality all you like, entirely your opinion to which you are very much entitled, but can both .... off in regard to questioning either his effort or his results; hate him as you will, all the spiteful spindoctoring in the world won't change his results, mostly on inferior equipment.
 
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The answer to this one rather than 38 is 23, as in wins for Ducati, as against no dry wins for anyone else on a Ducati 800 bike, including the great yellow God who riding a factory Yamaha won 2 of the titles Stoner "failed" to win at Ducati. By almost any assessment made by taking a line through other riders who got on the thing he massively outperformed the Ducati 800 bike, for which your mate JK, who purports to champion underdogs, spitefully and obsessively denigrates him. This ain't 2009 or 2010 any more, history records what happened in 2011 when Valentino got on that pig and proved everything you and other Stoner critics, which ironically had included Valentino himself, had been saying about Stoner's riding on the Ducati completely wrong.

Do you also dispute other recorded history such as the late weight change to the 2012 Honda bike on which Stoner had totally dominated initial preseason testing, or the Dorna engineered unprecedented rider's vote to remove Stoner's preferred tyre in 2012, in favour of a tyre he correctly predicted would fail in race conditions, when there was no reason at all both tyres could not have been available going forward.

You can dislike his personality all you like, entirely your opinion to which you are very much entitled, but can both .... off in regard to questioning either his effort or his results; hate him as you will, all the spiteful spindoctoring in the world won't change his results, mostly on inferior equipment.

Rossi sucking balls on the Ducati doesn't help prove your point it helps prove mine. I am not trying to say Stoner is a better rider than Rossi, because thats fact. The problem is his record i .... compared to Rossi who is an inferior rider. The honda proved the bike wasn't the problem he was as he won a title in his first season and then could NOT handle the pressure. Lorenzo is also half the rider Stoner is and will far surpass any Stoner record. Stoner was his own worse enemy 2009 is proof of that. He retired and pointed the finger at the media and dorna but he knew he was to blame. Media scrutiny is part of being an athlete deal with it like every other athlete in the world does. And if DORNA is so bad why hang around? Everything I've ever said about him is proven by his actions. He is a complete hypocrite.
 
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Rossi sucking balls on the Ducati doesn't help prove your point it helps prove mine. I am not trying to say Stoner is a better rider than Rossi, because thats fact. The problem is his record i .... compared to Rossi who is an inferior rider. The honda proved the bike wasn't the problem he was as he won a title in his first season and then could handle the pressure. Lorenzo is also half the rider Stoner is and will far surpass any Stoner record. Stoner was his own worse enemy 2009 is proof of that. He retired and pointed the finger at the media and dorna but he knew he was to blame. Media scrutiny is part of being an athlete deal with it like every other athlete in the world does. And if DORNA is so bad why hang around? Everything I've ever said about him is proven by his actions. He is a complete hypocrite.


Quoted and highlighted for posterity :p

You can no longer claim that he could not handle the pressure as you here (as per quote) say he could ................. who cares if it is a typo it is in print now :D

Was Stoner to blame - well yes as he retired thus he has to accept that his decision caused his retirement.

Was he justified, well that is the discussion point that seems to cause the angst as yes in some aspects he certainly was and remains justified (else why would rule changes have been applied that backed his complaints), but no doubt also that some of his issues were his perception and as such containing his bias (real or perceived).

Let us not overlook last year and again that this year there have been mutterings that DORNA and Race Direction are only interested in one aspect/rider with all others being bit parts to the party (my words as a paraphrase), so in essence he may be justified there a bit as well.

As for media scrutiny this is where I have an issue as media is there to cover the sport certainly, and as such they should be relatively unbiased and displaying an open mind at all times as this is often how they gain the trust of the athlete and subsequently how they may get that scoop. In this aspect Stoner was little different as he had some journalists with whom he could converse and some whom he simply did not trust based on experience of his being asked a question, then answering and the end result seemingly not that which he intended from his response (be that editing, translation or deliberate misleading, all of which occur).

With regards to hanging around if DORNA were so bad, well unless you missed it, he retired and left the sport ............... which to me shows that he did actually do as you ask, he was unhappy so left. Or are the goalposts to be moved again?

As for DORNA I find it interesting that people complain of Stoner having issue when often those same people have their own issue with DORNA, be that their focus, presentation or any aspect.

Actually not everything you have said has been proven by his actions and nor is he a hypocrite as he had stated that he was no longer enjoying himself in the sport and thus would leave it and to date has not returned full time - hardly hypocritical (keep in mind that others have stated no more cigarette sponsorship and have returned etc).

Most if not all athletes are in some way hypocritical as often that which they take umbrage of when done to them, they will happily do to others to benefit themselves, which in many ways is part of the selfish culture they need.
 
That conversation probably sounds a lot like three woman in the kitchen.

Comparing race wins, championships, retirement, broken bones and pissing off the yanks :p

Even if Jack seems to be indicating ..... size required to ride one of the bikes ......... .... knows women compare ..... size
 
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Quoted and highlighted for posterity :p

You can no longer claim that he could not handle the pressure as you here (as per quote) say he could ................. who cares if it is a typo it is in print now :D

Was Stoner to blame - well yes as he retired thus he has to accept that his decision caused his retirement.

Was he justified, well that is the discussion point that seems to cause the angst as yes in some aspects he certainly was and remains justified (else why would rule changes have been applied that backed his complaints), but no doubt also that some of his issues were his perception and as such containing his bias (real or perceived).

Let us not overlook last year and again that this year there have been mutterings that DORNA and Race Direction are only interested in one aspect/rider with all others being bit parts to the party (my words as a paraphrase), so in essence he may be justified there a bit as well.

As for media scrutiny this is where I have an issue as media is there to cover the sport certainly, and as such they should be relatively unbiased and displaying an open mind at all times as this is often how they gain the trust of the athlete and subsequently how they may get that scoop. In this aspect Stoner was little different as he had some journalists with whom he could converse and some whom he simply did not trust based on experience of his being asked a question, then answering and the end result seemingly not that which he intended from his response (be that editing, translation or deliberate misleading, all of which occur).

With regards to hanging around if DORNA were so bad, well unless you missed it, he retired and left the sport ............... which to me shows that he did actually do as you ask, he was unhappy so left. Or are the goalposts to be moved again?

As for DORNA I find it interesting that people complain of Stoner having issue when often those same people have their own issue with DORNA, be that their focus, presentation or any aspect.

Actually not everything you have said has been proven by his actions and nor is he a hypocrite as he had stated that he was no longer enjoying himself in the sport and thus would leave it and to date has not returned full time - hardly hypocritical (keep in mind that others have stated no more cigarette sponsorship and have returned etc).

Most if not all athletes are in some way hypocritical as often that which they take umbrage of when done to them, they will happily do to others to benefit themselves, which in many ways is part of the selfish culture they need.

I wish this to be true if you believe me or not. I enjoyed watching him ride and wish he was still around. But that wouldnt stop me from picking him apart thats part of what that retirement money cost.

You know I have an interesting take on the event of last year. It proved that Rossi is a complete .... but I applaud DORNA for not deciding the title on the spot. I like to think any rider first or second in points where a ride threw penalty would decide the title is worth some time to think about. I could totally be wrong about that, but its not like they let Rossi appeal for 3 years serving his penalty then(NFL reference). It for all purposes sealed the deal as long as Marc could stay alive. Can you tell me a time the title was decide by a penalty?
 
Rossi sucking balls on the Ducati doesn't help prove your point it helps prove mine. I am not trying to say Stoner is a better rider than Rossi, because thats fact. The problem is his record i .... compared to Rossi who is an inferior rider. The honda proved the bike wasn't the problem he was as he won a title in his first season and then could NOT handle the pressure. Lorenzo is also half the rider Stoner is and will far surpass any Stoner record. Stoner was his own worse enemy 2009 is proof of that. He retired and pointed the finger at the media and dorna but he knew he was to blame. Media scrutiny is part of being an athlete deal with it like every other athlete in the world does. And if DORNA is so bad why hang around? Everything I've ever said about him is proven by his actions. He is a complete hypocrite.

Again, you can criticise him for not organising a better ride in 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010 (as Rossi managed for all his career save 2011 and 2012, although he started from a rather more favourable location and background to organise such things) but not for not winning the titles in those years, given it is near certain no competitor could have won titles on those bikes (perhaps not even races), and rather likely none could have won the 2007 championship on the 2007 Ducati either.

Mick Doohan missed out on 2 titles by breaking his leg, and retired after a further injury. Does anyone suggest he is not mentally tough, or bottled out of the 1992 championship he was totally dominating before his crash at Assen?. I don't know how long you have been watching, but GP bike riders particularly including Marc Marquez crash in practice all the time, and the severity of any resultant injuries is often a matter of luck.

I have always given you respect for your expertise as a personal trainer, but tire of your continual cod psychology/psychiatry via internet, ........ whomever the practitioner, concerning which I do have the background to have an informed opinion. Your animadversions regarding Stoner in 2009 remain as invalid now as they were then, as with many things repetition not increasing their validity.
 
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Again, you can criticise him for not organising a better ride in 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010 (as Rossi managed for all his career save 2011 and 2012, although he started from a rather more favourable location and background to organise such things) but not for not winning the titles in those years, given it is near certain no competitor could have won titles on those bikes (perhaps not even races), and rather likely none could have won the 2007 championship on the 2007 Ducati either.

Your right I can and I do and my main reason is 2007. If he could ride around the totally inferior bike with his superior talent then why couldn't he do it again? I think it has to do with pressure.


Mick Doohan missed out on 2 titles by breaking his leg, and retired after a further injury. Does anyone suggest he is not mentally tough, or bottled out of the 1993 championship he was totally dominating before his crash at Assen?. I don't know how long you have been watching, but GP bike riders particularly including Marc Marquez crash in practice all the time, and the severity of any resultant injuries is often a matter of luck.

I have always given you respect for your expertise as a personal trainer, but tire of your continual cod psychology/psychiatry via internet, ........ whomever the practitioner, concerning which I do have the background to have an informed opinion. Your animadversions regarding Stoner in 2009 remain as invalid now as they were then, as with many things repetition not increasing their validity.

Well I have news for you. I feel I have more knowledge of the psy of a racer than pt. As I spent more time of my life as a racer than trainer so I do have some insight into the mentality of a racer. A lot actually. I'd happily share a story about why I feel this way that may make more sense but not on the forum.
 

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