Donington GP- practice and quali discussion
- Thread starter Bikergirl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- discussion donington practice quali
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 21 2008, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>God know tire management is never an issue. Full throttle all the time, no worries about tire wear. He should actually move up. Question: Would Honda have Nicky slide in behind him for the sake of points?--(assuming Hayden doesn't go backwards as usual).
I suspect he will be in second place going into turn 2. He has the most amazing starts on the grid.
Hayden should say .... Honda if there is actual team orders and if he can show them what they will be missing next year or maybe this year. Melandri is gone. I don't think that he is just going to take the rest of the year off. There has to be a done deal already, no??
I suspect he will be in second place going into turn 2. He has the most amazing starts on the grid.
Hayden should say .... Honda if there is actual team orders and if he can show them what they will be missing next year or maybe this year. Melandri is gone. I don't think that he is just going to take the rest of the year off. There has to be a done deal already, no??
Also, someone please explain why Honda would give an ultimatum to Nicky saying that he must qualify at least 4th on the grid. WTF
There must be some bad blood going on behind the closed doors.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Morning Practise; Midsummers day Donington Park Leics. England, Sat 21/06/08...more like mid winter.
3625:JT.jpg]
3626:Al.JT_Vale.jpg]
3627:Vale.jpg]
3628:Nicky.jpg]
Just an observation: From watching qualifying later in the day outfield near Starkeys bridge, (a very fast section before Macleans, and where Toseland hopped off for the final time), I noticed Dani, Casey and Vermin all appeared to be using by far the most TC, although Pedders substantially dialled this out towards the end of the session. On Nicky's bike, unsurprisingly, it was not discernable at all.
3625:JT.jpg]
3626:Al.JT_Vale.jpg]
3627:Vale.jpg]
3628:Nicky.jpg]
Just an observation: From watching qualifying later in the day outfield near Starkeys bridge, (a very fast section before Macleans, and where Toseland hopped off for the final time), I noticed Dani, Casey and Vermin all appeared to be using by far the most TC, although Pedders substantially dialled this out towards the end of the session. On Nicky's bike, unsurprisingly, it was not discernable at all.
Attachments
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jun 21 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where are all the JT fanwankers?
Just back from up the road matey....can I help you?
Just back from up the road matey....can I help you?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pepik128 @ Jun 21 2008, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We all know everything is bigger and better in the USA.
First, our country is called AMERICA.
Second, who said anything about America? I was talking about Texas.
First, our country is called AMERICA.
Second, who said anything about America? I was talking about Texas.
Riders lean to the inside of their bikes to lower the resultant C of G so they can turn with the lowest possible banking angle. This gives more grip and allows suspension to work better leading to faster times.
A bike with a raised C of G will require a higher banking angle for an equivalent corner situation
The effect of minor (motogp size) changes in vertical C of G will have a minimal significance, especially compared to rider styles and tyre profiles etc
A motorcycle rolls about its tyre contact patch with the C of G acting between the effective pivot and the input (rider). Moving the C of G closer to the pivot (lower) increases leverage and will make a bike easier to move from side to side.
A Lower C of G gives more stability as the effective position of the weight stays closer to the vehicles centre line than a higher C of G for an equivalent banking angle
The most significant difference the C of G makes vertically speaking is a bikes pitch sensitivity. Remember Rossi requesting the engine was raised on the NSR to slove the bikes long standing understeer.
A bike with a raised C of G will require a higher banking angle for an equivalent corner situation
The effect of minor (motogp size) changes in vertical C of G will have a minimal significance, especially compared to rider styles and tyre profiles etc
A motorcycle rolls about its tyre contact patch with the C of G acting between the effective pivot and the input (rider). Moving the C of G closer to the pivot (lower) increases leverage and will make a bike easier to move from side to side.
A Lower C of G gives more stability as the effective position of the weight stays closer to the vehicles centre line than a higher C of G for an equivalent banking angle
The most significant difference the C of G makes vertically speaking is a bikes pitch sensitivity. Remember Rossi requesting the engine was raised on the NSR to slove the bikes long standing understeer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 21 2008, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hell they still think they are their own country.
Texas IS still its own country. The union never dissolved the republic, they simply set up an interim government then annexed Texas as a state.
Congress had to grant recognition to a small group of dedicated Texian Republicans (not political repubs). The Republic of Texas was a warehouse in Overton.
You can't have dual citizenship. So you have to renounce America to become a citizen of the Republic. The only citizens are political dissidents and ex-cons. In theory, the citizens of the Republic are governed by the laws of the Republic anywhere within the Republic's old boundaries. Predictably, the Fed has locked up almost all citizens of the Republic who did anything against Federal law.
The Republic of Texas is now recognized as a movement since the headquarters burned down in 2005, but the interim government was recognized by the United States Congress. With proper funding it would be recognized again. Check it out, Jumk, it's wild.
Texas IS still its own country. The union never dissolved the republic, they simply set up an interim government then annexed Texas as a state.
Congress had to grant recognition to a small group of dedicated Texian Republicans (not political repubs). The Republic of Texas was a warehouse in Overton.
You can't have dual citizenship. So you have to renounce America to become a citizen of the Republic. The only citizens are political dissidents and ex-cons. In theory, the citizens of the Republic are governed by the laws of the Republic anywhere within the Republic's old boundaries. Predictably, the Fed has locked up almost all citizens of the Republic who did anything against Federal law.
The Republic of Texas is now recognized as a movement since the headquarters burned down in 2005, but the interim government was recognized by the United States Congress. With proper funding it would be recognized again. Check it out, Jumk, it's wild.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 21 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>First, our country is called AMERICA.
Second, who said anything about America? I was talking about Texas.
Whats the difference between saying/typing USA and America, you really are the Americas version of Pinky
Second, who said anything about America? I was talking about Texas.
Whats the difference between saying/typing USA and America, you really are the Americas version of Pinky
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (odessa @ Jun 21 2008, 11:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whats the difference between saying/typing USA and America, you really are the Americas version of Pinky
At least Pinky's mildly amusing on occasions.
Lex, this thread is a Donington GP discussion..I'm sure there's plenty of 'Lone Star' forums out there eager to accomodate your tiresome drivel in the meantime.
At least Pinky's mildly amusing on occasions.
Lex, this thread is a Donington GP discussion..I'm sure there's plenty of 'Lone Star' forums out there eager to accomodate your tiresome drivel in the meantime.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Traverser @ Jun 21 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No this is what is left of the Nicky Hayden Fan Club.
3623:SNF19CUL..._472060a.jpg]
They are standing in line for tickets to the Indy GP. One is a "fisting" specialist, and has her eye on Dani.
Isn't that the top shelf pin up girls comming from the factory where Pedrobot was built.
Something went wrong though,they are all 6 feet and taller and Mr Pedro is....
3623:SNF19CUL..._472060a.jpg]
They are standing in line for tickets to the Indy GP. One is a "fisting" specialist, and has her eye on Dani.
Isn't that the top shelf pin up girls comming from the factory where Pedrobot was built.
Something went wrong though,they are all 6 feet and taller and Mr Pedro is....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jun 21 2008, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Riders lean to the inside of their bikes to lower the resultant C of G so they can turn with the lowest possible banking angle. This gives more grip and allows suspension to work better leading to faster times.
A bike with a raised C of G will require a higher banking angle for an equivalent corner situation
The effect of minor (motogp size) changes in vertical C of G will have a minimal significance, especially compared to rider styles and tyre profiles etc
A motorcycle rolls about its tyre contact patch with the C of G acting between the effective pivot and the input (rider). Moving the C of G closer to the pivot (lower) increases leverage and will make a bike easier to move from side to side.
A Lower C of G gives more stability as the effective position of the weight stays closer to the vehicles centre line than a higher C of G for an equivalent banking angle
The most significant difference the C of G makes vertically speaking is a bikes pitch sensitivity. Remember Rossi requesting the engine was raised on the NSR to slove the bikes long standing understeer.
So apparently, centripetal force doesn't exist in your model.
I agree that bike pitch is important, but a bike doesn't turn by lofting its front wheel (pitch). It turns for a variety of reasons, the most important of which is that centripetal force at the front is on a different vector than centripetal force in the rear.
Centripetal forces are rotational around the vertical axis, that's still yaw, even when a bike is on its side.
Rossi raised the COG to help load the rear. This meant the rear tire was applying the same force on a greater mass and greater inertial force. Loading the rear wheel does affect the pitch of the bike, but more importantly it changes the vector of the centripetal force at the rear.
The perceived feeling to the rider is that the front is pivoting around the back. Like you say it corrects understeer by altering pitch, pitch alters the vector of the force applied by the tires.
Obviously, a bike with a raised COG doesn't require more lean to turn because as you've pointed out, raising the COG corrects understeer by altering pitch and improving yaw, while simultaneously counteracting the inertial forces that are trying to stand the bike up.
A bike with a raised C of G will require a higher banking angle for an equivalent corner situation
The effect of minor (motogp size) changes in vertical C of G will have a minimal significance, especially compared to rider styles and tyre profiles etc
A motorcycle rolls about its tyre contact patch with the C of G acting between the effective pivot and the input (rider). Moving the C of G closer to the pivot (lower) increases leverage and will make a bike easier to move from side to side.
A Lower C of G gives more stability as the effective position of the weight stays closer to the vehicles centre line than a higher C of G for an equivalent banking angle
The most significant difference the C of G makes vertically speaking is a bikes pitch sensitivity. Remember Rossi requesting the engine was raised on the NSR to slove the bikes long standing understeer.
So apparently, centripetal force doesn't exist in your model.
I agree that bike pitch is important, but a bike doesn't turn by lofting its front wheel (pitch). It turns for a variety of reasons, the most important of which is that centripetal force at the front is on a different vector than centripetal force in the rear.
Centripetal forces are rotational around the vertical axis, that's still yaw, even when a bike is on its side.
Rossi raised the COG to help load the rear. This meant the rear tire was applying the same force on a greater mass and greater inertial force. Loading the rear wheel does affect the pitch of the bike, but more importantly it changes the vector of the centripetal force at the rear.
The perceived feeling to the rider is that the front is pivoting around the back. Like you say it corrects understeer by altering pitch, pitch alters the vector of the force applied by the tires.
Obviously, a bike with a raised COG doesn't require more lean to turn because as you've pointed out, raising the COG corrects understeer by altering pitch and improving yaw, while simultaneously counteracting the inertial forces that are trying to stand the bike up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 21 2008, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What do you mean about yaw. I had to google it and found it's the movment from side to side a boat does. Much similar to a bike flicking from one side to the other? is that it?
Are you talking about the suspension here or what? Why does the tires work less with the same force?
We allready agreed that high COG put more stress on the tires through harder working suspension. In a stable turn/lean angle how can the COG influence the "work" of the tire? I'll give you one though, the suspension work very ineffectivly at high lean angle and that put more stress on the tire when it hits bumps and might influnce tire wear.
I also wonder what YAW means,is it the flex in chassi and swingarm taking over when the leanangle is too much for the rear suspention which only goes straight up and down?
Are you talking about the suspension here or what? Why does the tires work less with the same force?
We allready agreed that high COG put more stress on the tires through harder working suspension. In a stable turn/lean angle how can the COG influence the "work" of the tire? I'll give you one though, the suspension work very ineffectivly at high lean angle and that put more stress on the tire when it hits bumps and might influnce tire wear.
I also wonder what YAW means,is it the flex in chassi and swingarm taking over when the leanangle is too much for the rear suspention which only goes straight up and down?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jun 21 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How do you do that? ...... I know you seem to be able to rave about pretty dismal performances but its not really in the Aussie vernacular to say much when there ain't much to write home about
must be why the aussie quintet has been so quiet for most of this season
must be why the aussie quintet has been so quiet for most of this season
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 21 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So don't get all crazy Neil/Migs, etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 21 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps you, migs, neil, and the gang can see that the US is a big place,
Yeah I'd like to stay out of this topic thankyou Jumkie
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 21 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps you, migs, neil, and the gang can see that the US is a big place,
Yeah I'd like to stay out of this topic thankyou Jumkie
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jun 21 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where are all the JT fanwankers?
im here. give it a dry track cos of the crappy michilins and then judge him, remember rookie season to.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (odessa @ Jun 21 2008, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whats the difference between saying/typing USA and America
The Monroe Doctrine.
Don't be mad.
The Monroe Doctrine.
Don't be mad.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 22 2008, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
im here. give it a dry track cos of the crappy michilins and then judge him, remember rookie season to.
3630:__Crash__.jpg]
Too much pressure...take it easy tomorrow JT
3630:__Crash__.jpg]
Too much pressure...take it easy tomorrow JT
Attachments
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Jun 21 2008, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I also wonder what YAW means,is it the flex in chassi and swingarm taking over when the leanangle is too much for the rear suspention which only goes straight up and down?
Yaw is rotation around the vertical axis.
It is the ability to turn the front wheels and make the car rotate thus allowing it to go around bendy bits of road.
It is the same thing in motorcycles but to make the bike rotate you have to get it on its side so it doesn't flop over towards the outside of the turn.
Yaw is rotation around the vertical axis.
It is the ability to turn the front wheels and make the car rotate thus allowing it to go around bendy bits of road.
It is the same thing in motorcycles but to make the bike rotate you have to get it on its side so it doesn't flop over towards the outside of the turn.
