can rossi take the title this year?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 7 2008, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Which riders do you reckon are "superior" to him? As opposed to the rider/bike/tyre package being better as a whole.

Stoner ..... by miles

Pedrosa ..... by a bit

Lorenzo ........ maybe a bit or maybe miles.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Apr 7 2008, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes i agree ( sort of lol), i just want close racing and i think it will be much closer this year than the last few especially with all the noob riders, also the bikes seem alot closer performance wise.

So far we've had two "clear out" winners ....... ie. twp riders that it what obvious were in a class of their own on the day.

yawn. it always ends up like this. no basis in fact( because there can't be ) and more importantly, no current context but still the question is asked. as if finite validation must be given or all bets are off, no further opinions may be deemed valid unless an accompanying proof that one or more or any rider is better that rossi. everybody loves valentino rossi. in fact, if you don't hold this notion true to your heart, then by definition you are a fool, how could you be anything else? when it is suggested that rossi may not be god, even for the sake of debate and amusement, the same old voices drone out in depressing unison, " how many titles did he win eh? " or similar non question, as if it makes a difference to the now. hayden fans had to listen to the same crap in 2006 and everybody has had it shoved up their arses since stoner won the title last year.

it's a good thread but the title should've been "who can win it?". the title "can rossi win it?" almost implies part ownership of a title that hasn't been his since 2005 although i'm sure this will be vehemently denied.

i haven't a clue who can win it this year. rossi, lorenzo, pedrosa, stoner, maybe even hayden. this is true though, whatever titles any one of these guys ever won in the past will be of no help to them in estoril.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skid @ Apr 7 2008, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>this is true though, whatever titles any one of these guys ever won in the past will be of no help to them in estoril.
An absolutely indisputable statement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 6 2008, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. His abilities are still very much amongst the best in the world, his results speak for themself but they are clearly inferior to his previous results, hence my statement. This should not be taken as anti-rossi as the fact that he is able to "decline" to being mearly a significant championship contender says a lot about his past performance.

2. Hayden performed better than Rossi in 06, and in 07 he was bettered by both Stoner and Pedrosa. He may not have been "faster" than Rossi last year, but he still scored more world championship points which is obviously the aim (despite what you might like to think).

My position is simple: 1 (one!) point does not have the same value as 2 (two) victories. I can accept a point system, and everybody accepts it for the sake of regulations etc., according to this point system Pedrosa arrived 2nd - GREAT for him - but a point system is just a necessary evil and it can NOT be translated into a "value" system always. Amen

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 7 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>An absolutely indisputable statement.


I'd like to dispute this ..... Once a rider has a WC I believe it does effect him .....

Pressure to perform ..... to live up to expectations. Prett big driving factor.

Confidence ....... just think .... how would you feel after you have had a WC ..... even a GP win seems to boost riders confidence. ... as compared to before they had a win.

Extra money from all the wins mean that they can live life in general more at ease.

Stability ..... WC's ... or lots of wins ...... usually gets good contract signings.

I don't think Estoril is excempt from this ....... unless DePuniet, or West say, or Dovi, or Lorenzo etc. wins Estoril .... that could prove me wrong.


PS. If Lorenzo ever begins to string together several wins ....... I think he is the kinda guy who will be so hard to stop.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 6 2008, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. His abilities are still very much amongst the best in the world, his results speak for themself but they are clearly inferior to his previous results, hence my statement. This should not be taken as anti-rossi as the fact that he is able to "decline" to being mearly a significant championship contender says a lot about his past performance.

2. Hayden performed better than Rossi in 06, and in 07 he was bettered by both Stoner and Pedrosa. He may not have been "faster" than Rossi last year, but he still scored more world championship points which is obviously the aim (despite what you might like to think).
Why are you so hung up on WC points?

There has to be a method of determining the WC, but at the end of the day the points are a only statistic to be repeated in the history books.

They cannot tell the complete story, nor should they be expected to do so.

If rider A has a season with X bike failures and Y points scored then viewing the points only would lead to the conclusion that his ability was identical to rider B who has a season of X at-fault crashes and Y points scored.

I would strongly disagree that the two riders were equivalent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 7 2008, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd like to dispute this ..... Once a rider has a WC I believe it does effect him .....
All 5 riders mentioned by skid have won world championships, although like you I don't consider pedrosa's and lorenzo's world championships to be equivalent to premier class championships. I think pedrosa has won enough motogps now for his current lack of a premier class wc not to be much of a factor in an individual race, particularly given his current form. You may have a point regarding lorenzo; he may perform even better after a premier class win or two.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 7 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>An absolutely indisputable statement.

I understand that people may say that to counter some easy (and wrong) assumptions, but the statement in itself does not stand, because it amounts to saying that the value of past experience and achievements is ZERO.

If that value is zero, then ANY rookie could win the title ANY year, or any race could be won by any rookie as much as by any experienced champ... Of course that is possible and it happens, but it happens as an exception rather than a rule.

This is statistically a fact and it tells us that experience and titles do matter something (unless they are too far in the past of course - his 15 titles wouldn't help Ago now... ).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 7 2008, 07:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>his 15 titles wouldn't help Ago now... ).Be fun finding out though

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evolution @ Apr 7 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>uhh the ducati burning!

Would you like to change the subject?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 7 2008, 03:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner ..... by miles

Pedrosa ..... by a bit

Lorenzo ........ maybe a bit or maybe miles.

Thats an um interesting opinion you have there

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thom @ Apr 8 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Thats an um interesting opinion you have there


Why?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 7 2008, 03:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo ........ maybe a bit or maybe miles.

Neither.

He's only had 2 races so far and he's better than Rossi already. No way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pacman @ Apr 8 2008, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Neither.

He's only had 2 races so far and he's better than Rossi already. No way.


So if we put Lorenzo and Rossi into a head to head race, like we have had so far in 08, ....... I'd say the oints would be ....

Lorenzo ...... 36
Rossi ......... 31

So by data available it would, so far appear to be the case.

If you have trouble with it so far translate that into each race .... and add how far back each one was to get a cummulative time ......

I know its early stages, and some don't want to accept it , but nonetheless it looks like Lorenzo is better than Rossi to date ....... on comparable equipment that is

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 7 2008, 07:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I understand that people may say that to counter some easy (and wrong) assumptions, but the statement in itself does not stand, because it amounts to saying that the value of past experience and achievements is ZERO.

If that value is zero, then ANY rookie could win the title ANY year, or any race could be won by any rookie as much as by any experienced champ... Of course that is possible and it happens, but it happens as an exception rather than a rule.

This is statistically a fact and it tells us that experience and titles do matter something (unless they are too far in the past of course - his 15 titles wouldn't help Ago now... ).
Both I and skid were referring to 5 specific riders in one particular race in the current 800 formula, rather than any random rookie, and I think all of these riders know it is possible to beat rossi, whereas many riders in the past didn't really believe this could happen even with superior equipment. I agree that it would seem statistically unlikely that 4 other riders would appear at the same time who were as good as a five times world champion.

Rossi may well win this year because he is the best rider on a more competitive bike than last year, but not because these riders at least are intimidated.

In any case it seems to be a common belief which rossi himself has agreed with on occasion that his past experience is to some extent detrimental in the era of advanced electronic aids. This is just a theory in my view, even though you and I are among the first to have advanced it .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 7 2008, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So if we put Lorenzo and Rossi into a head to head race, like we have had so far in 08, ....... I'd say the oints would be ....

Lorenzo ...... 36
Rossi ......... 31

So by data available it would, so far appear to be the case.

If you have trouble with it so far translate that into each race .... and add how far back each one was to get a cummulative time ......

I know its early stages, and some don't want to accept it , but nonetheless it looks like Lorenzo is better than Rossi to date ....... on comparable equipment that is


Oh Lord. Well then, why on Earth did we have all those: “who is better Rossi or Stoner threads? Look everybody, Ferry, has figured out the magical formula. After two races, he figures that—“LORENZO IS BETTER THAN ROSSI”!

Wow, that is breathtaking. And you came up with this all by yourself? Are you sure you didn’t get help with that very complex statistical formula and mountain of evidence? Surely you must have retained the services of an army of scientists to help you with the mathematical arithmetic to arrive at such a sweeping conclusion? (Perhaps you and Pinky consulting in private?)

I would laugh, but I know you are serious. I usually laugh at pathetic posts, but this is your second time you try and make such a pitiful statement using such a poor sample. You must have a foot fetish, because that foot of yours must taste great in your mouth. And you even had the presences of mind to say, “some don’t like to accept it”, well no .... dude, you are right about that, but not for the reason you think, but rather because its beyond stupid to think that after two races you can declare Lorenzo is better than Rossi.

Lets see, here I will use Berry’s sample for making definitive conclusions below:

After two races:

Rossi 5th & 2nd=31 points
Stoner 1st & 11th=30 points

There you have it folks. Rossi is in fact better than Stoner!!!!!!!!!!

Lets go home, its been settled. No need to worry yourselves with the 18 different threads that try to tackle the important and complex question of who is better, Eureka—we have solved the mystery!






Like I said boys and girls, this is not the first time we see such a sweeping statement after two rounds, anybody remember this:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 2 2008, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins.

07 after round 2 Rossi ....... 1st

08 after round 2 Rossi ....... 3rd


Hahahaha, this is great. You make a case to compare tires after two rounds. Ok then lets see if your magnificent scientific postulation based on two rounds makes sense:

07 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 2 Stoner......4th Oh my God, what's happened to those Bridgestones???

From your statment above; your conclusion:
"Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins."
Using your reasoning:
<strike>Rossi</strike> Stoner is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on <strike>Michelins</strike> Bridgestones.

Please man, lets try and make some intelligent analysis shall we. Tires are not the only factor here, so why must you try and isolated them?



...., so now what, are we gonna have a thousand threads that Lorenzo is better than Rossi? Oh, that reminds me of that thread you posted with your LIST of 10+ reasons why Rossi is NOT the purest rider. (He's only won on everything). ......., according to you the whole world is better than Rossi. Why don't you just stick to riding Stoner's jock man.

LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 8 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Please man, lets try and make some intelligent analysis shall we.



Oh so I should go on a long sensless tyre-ade .... like you have Junk...

Points to date in the battle of Rossi V's Lorenzo:

Lorenzo ....... 36
Rossi .......... 31

Placings:

Lorenzo ...... 2, 3
Rossi .......... 5, 2

Lorenzo is a rookie

Its early stages ....... but thats what the "speedometer" says now ...

unless you interpret it differently


Edit:
On the who is better .... Stoner or Rossi .... I think Stoner is still in front in the points since Stoner started racing against Rossi ??

But if we break it into years ..... then Rossi is better than Stoner this year so far

Ah numbers ...... they are not negotiable

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 8 2008, 06:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LINKamen