can rossi take the title this year?

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Racers being "mindful of the big picture" I'd agree with. That they race for points as an end game for each race I don't agree with.

Out of interest, does anyone else subscribe to Tom's "they race for points not for wins" argument?
I think some do, particularly riders not called valentino rossi with a chance of winning the world championship. I think rossi in particular does not, even when the championship is in prospect, let alone when it isn't like the end of last year. I think this has been part of his greatness. I think michael schumacher was similar, although you may disagree
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 11 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think some do, particularly riders not called valentino rossi with a chance of winning the world championship. I think rossi in particular does not, even when the championship is in prospect, let alone when it isn't like the end of last year. I think this has been part of his greatness. I think michael schumacher was similar, although you may disagree
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Which riders would you say ascribe to the lust for points alone? IMO, neither of the two who were slated for winning a title by consistency (KRJR & YNHFWC) had that attitude.

I think that Rossi raced for the wins/championship last year, not for the points. Otherwise he'd not have risked the pneumatic engine at Misano.

I have no issue with Spoonface as a racer - indeed the fact that he was so bloody good but felt that he needed to lean on the rules saddened me - he could have done it without all that.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 11 2008, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think some do, particularly riders not called valentino rossi with a chance of winning the world championship. I think rossi in particular does not, even when the championship is in prospect, let alone when it isn't like the end of last year. I think this has been part of his greatness. I think michael schumacher was similar, although you may disagree
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I think that all the riders race for the maximum points possible. When you are a front runner and an exceptionaly fast rider like Rossi, winning can realistically be the target almost every weekend, but when it isn't he podiums. Thats how he won his world titles.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Which riders would you say ascribe to the lust for points alone? IMO, neither of the two who were slated for winning a title by consistency (KRJR & YNHFWC) had that attitude.
I don't think many riders ride for points alone. But even stoner last year when well ahead in the championship settled for position in some races; in particular I don't think he tried to win at motegi. I think rossi in his glory years which going by practice so far are not necessarily over kept trying to win most races rather than protecting a championship lead; doohan was the same.

I don't think pedrosa tried flat-out to win every race last year; his bike probably didn't give him a chance to win in a number of races but this did not stop rossi who was in a similar situation.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that all the riders race for the maximum points possible. When you are a front runner and an exceptionaly fast rider like Rossi, winning can realistically be the target almost every weekend, but when it isn't he podiums. Thats how he won his world titles.
You could re-write your post, word for word, with "best position possible" replacing "maximum points possible". If that was done, would you agree with the resultant statement? If you would, then we are perhaps not that far apart in viewpoints after all...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You could re-write your post, word for word, with "best position possible" replacing "maximum points possible". If that was done, would you agree with the resultant statement? If you would, then we are perhaps not that far apart in viewpoints after all...

agreed
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most points possible and best position possible are the same thing
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>agreed
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most points possible and best position possible are the same thing
No they are not.

I presume that you don't race.

It is race 2 in a championship. I am in 2nd and have just caught the guy in 1st. I think I am quicker. Do I:

a: consider the championship points and decide that a safe 20 points is the way to go.

b. try to pass the guy in front - I want to win this race

c. do a Careless Chukka and achieve neither.


Most racers in whatever formulae will not settle for a)
 
I disagree with both of you then, tom and yamaka. I think rossi has on a number of occasions taken risks to go for a win when a podium seemed his maximum result and when in a comfortable position in the championship; the gibernau last corner pass for a start.
 
When the rider takes that extra risk for the win do you think he is riding with nothing but pride on their mind, or do you think they are calculating enough to fully believe they can gain more places/points? Perhaps i think to highly of the riders inteligence?

I think riders do occasionally get into scraps dominated by pride, but i don't believe the ones who are seriously running for the title would not take risks beyond what they were comfortbale with based on this motive.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 11 2008, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree with both of you then, tom and yamaka. I think rossi has on a number of occasions taken risks to go for a win when a podium seemed his maximum result and when in a comfortable position in the championship; the gibernau last corner pass for a start.
Not sure how that disagrees with my standpoint.

If you had said that you'd seen Rossi decide that a bike with the possible capability of of a podium had decided to play safe and take a fourth, I'd ask you to see an optometrist, but would agree that that would be against my argument.

However, IMO, Rossi has (as do most other riders) always tried to achieve a win, and if that is not possible a podium, or the at the very least, to keep the guys behind him exactly that - behind him.

Taking risks is part of racing. In my last post I offered a,b & c. I only said that most racers would not settle for a. I did not say that they would not try c.

The only given (where points are not considered god) is that a racer will try try try to finish as high as he can. Not high in the points but high in the finishers, ie ahead of as many of the other racers out there as is possible.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When the rider takes that extra risk for the win do you think he is riding with nothing but pride on their mind, or do you think they are calculating enough to fully believe they can gain more places/points? Perhaps i think to highly of the riders inteligence?

I think riders do occasionally get into scraps dominated by pride, but i don't believe the ones who are seriously running for the title would not take risks beyond what they were comfortbale with based on this motive.
I think that the riders in contention for the championship have far too much ability and belief in themselves to need to rely on pride. Pride comes before a fall and all that. However, pride should not be confused with ability.

If a rider arrives at the rear wheel of another then obviously he has been doing something right in order to have caught the rider in front. Assuming that the rider behind still believes that his tyres etc are as good as / better than the those of the rider he has caught, BUT feels that taking the risk of overtaking for first might lose him 20 points rather than gain him 5 additional points, then I doubt he is going to remain a championship contender for long.

The corollary to this is when the championship is contested by many riders, none of which get consistent results. Only then may the prevaricating (points over position) rider win the title. FWIW I don't think that either KRJR or Hayden (the two most recent champs to be slated for the manner in which they won) prevailed in the championship by adopting the attitude that only points count.

Perhaps you could explain who you feel has won by thinking only of the points.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps you could explain who you feel has won by thinking only of the points.

I think we largely agree you know, which is odd!!

But in answer to you last question, i'd say all of the world champions, unless you have any knowledge or evidence that suggests a rider won the title by accident.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think we largely agree you know, which is odd!!

But in answer to you last question, i'd say all of the world champions, unless you have any knowledge or evidence that suggests a rider won the title by accident.
We probably do agree, but this concept of "racing for points" keeps getting in the way.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We probably do agree, but this concept of "racing for points" keeps getting in the way.
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Is it necessary for it to be one or the other? I can't see why the racers cant actually be racing both for the moment and the championship. Long and short term goals can exist simultaneously
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is it necessary for it to be one or the other? I can't see why the racers cant actually be racing both for the moment and the championship. Long and short term goals can exist simultaneously
mmmm....... Management.....
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>mmmm....... Management.....
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stop haunting me, i get enough of this from my personal tutor
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>stop haunting me, i get enough of this from my personal tutor
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It's simple. Stop sounding like managment. Start thinking like an engineer.
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Unless you want to earn more money (as a permie
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), in which case - keep talking like management. Just don't expect any respect from engineers from that point forth!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When the rider takes that extra risk for the win do you think he is riding with nothing but pride on their mind, or do you think they are calculating enough to fully believe they can gain more places/points? Perhaps i think to highly of the riders inteligence?
In general a BIG YES. More specificly Rossi, passion and inteligence can work together, his proven it again and again.
Pedrosa are probably the robot we call him and robots are never inteligent, but without the passion they are able to calculate risks and points under any condition. Stoner are passionate, but not so much rider vs rider but enjoy crushing the rest, even when he has a comfortable points lead. Hayden is probably the most well balanced among the top runners. Lunatic... well he is Lunatic.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 11 2008, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's simple. Stop sounding like managment. Start thinking like an engineer.
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Unless you want to earn more money (as a permie
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), in which case - keep talking like management. Just don't expect any respect from engineers from that point forth!
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Its not me specifically, just that the majority of engineering graduates end up in management positions within 5 years. They even make us study company organization
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its not me specifically, just that the majority of engineering graduates end up in management positions within 5 years. They even make us study company organization
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Ah, so that's why most companies have such a top heavy structure these days.
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No wonder experienced engineers are in such high demand if the university engineering courses are really trying to turn out managers now.

BTW, how do you study "company organisation"? That's pretty much a non-sequitur in most companies I've worked for.
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