Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
The two factory Hondas were both up on acceleration and top speed to the slower factory Yamahas.
Finishing order in the race: 1. F-Yamaha 2. F-Yamaha 3. F-Honda (fastest overall) 4. F-Honda (second fastest overall)
The two factory & two satellite Ducatis were both up on acceleration and top speed to the slower satellite Yamahas.
Finishing order in the race: 5. S-Yamaha 7. F-Ducati 8. F-Ducati 9. S-Ducati 10. S-Ducati
The two satellite Hondas were both up on acceleration and top speed to the slower satellite Yamahas.
Finishing order in the race: 5. S-Yamaha 6. S-Honda (other two DNF)
Wiki: facts, no insight
Finishing order in the race: 1. F-Yamaha 2. F-Yamaha 3. F-Honda (fastest overall) 4. F-Honda (second fastest overall)
The two factory & two satellite Ducatis were both up on acceleration and top speed to the slower satellite Yamahas.
Finishing order in the race: 5. S-Yamaha 7. F-Ducati 8. F-Ducati 9. S-Ducati 10. S-Ducati
The two satellite Hondas were both up on acceleration and top speed to the slower satellite Yamahas.
Finishing order in the race: 5. S-Yamaha 6. S-Honda (other two DNF)
Wiki: facts, no insight
inam
The Hondas up front were screwing with his lines and overall corner speed. The Hondas have the grunt to square off the corners whereas the Yams are relying on pure corner speed. When Cal is hitting the apex following Pedrosa he is going slower than he normaly would with clear track in front of him, then he lacks the raw horsepower to keep up on the exit.
The Hondas up front were screwing with his lines and overall corner speed. The Hondas have the grunt to square off the corners whereas the Yams are relying on pure corner speed. When Cal is hitting the apex following Pedrosa he is going slower than he normaly would with clear track in front of him, then he lacks the raw horsepower to keep up on the exit.
inam
Yes, and have done since the early 70s.
In order to slipstream, you need to be within a certain distance, at the same, or nearly the same, speed as the person in front of you. Two to, at most, three bike lengths, any further and you need to have superior top speed and torque to get you up to them and enough track to make the pass.
When you have a couple of riders like Pedrosa and Marquez on factory Honda's with their trick gearbox and fancy traction control who are able to slingshot out of a corner and pull away down the straight, where and when is the satellite Yamaha going to be in a position to slipstream them?
For Crutchlow to slipstream Marquez, for example, he needs to come out of the corner faster and be up on his rear wheel when they are hitting top gear. That is clearly not the case - Marquez has many metres on Crutchlow out of the corner and is accelerating harder, for longer.
Yes, and have done since the early 70s.
In order to slipstream, you need to be within a certain distance, at the same, or nearly the same, speed as the person in front of you. Two to, at most, three bike lengths, any further and you need to have superior top speed and torque to get you up to them and enough track to make the pass.
When you have a couple of riders like Pedrosa and Marquez on factory Honda's with their trick gearbox and fancy traction control who are able to slingshot out of a corner and pull away down the straight, where and when is the satellite Yamaha going to be in a position to slipstream them?
For Crutchlow to slipstream Marquez, for example, he needs to come out of the corner faster and be up on his rear wheel when they are hitting top gear. That is clearly not the case - Marquez has many metres on Crutchlow out of the corner and is accelerating harder, for longer.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
bluegreen
We are just days away buddy.
I partially agree with your description above, yet Rossi was able to execute passes on both HRC boys, specifically, into corners. Sure, the acceleration advantage of the Hondas makes the passing more difficult, but it does NOT make them impossible as you suggest friend. Much as been made of Cal's "inferior" bike to the factory Yamahas, but that difference is relatively minor. On top of that, as I said before, both works RCVs were exactly 1st & 2nd fastest (where Marquez was thee fastest, and clearly had the acceleration advantage) YET, Rossi executed passes on a M1 that was 7th fastest overall (btw, Lorenzo's bike was slower, 8th fastest overall). I don't believe Cal had difficulty keeping up with the Hondas, as he had the pace, I think we both would agree. I do believe executing a pass against the factory Hondas would be tricky and require some cunning; HOWEVER I do NOT by any stretch accept it was improbable. In addition, those defending Cal seem to be demanding "better bits" to complete with the factory Hondas, YET I bet if you were to ask him, 'do you think if Lorenzo or Rossi were riding your bike Sunday, do you think they would have been able to pass the Hondas?' I bet he would have said yes. Maybe Cal was setting up for a last lap attempt, which if he did, would mean he also thought it was within his reach to pass. I would be disappointed if he believed passing the a factory Honda was out of his reach, because that will make for a very difficult season if he again gets bogged behind one when on the occasion he has the better pace.
We are just days away buddy.
I partially agree with your description above, yet Rossi was able to execute passes on both HRC boys, specifically, into corners. Sure, the acceleration advantage of the Hondas makes the passing more difficult, but it does NOT make them impossible as you suggest friend. Much as been made of Cal's "inferior" bike to the factory Yamahas, but that difference is relatively minor. On top of that, as I said before, both works RCVs were exactly 1st & 2nd fastest (where Marquez was thee fastest, and clearly had the acceleration advantage) YET, Rossi executed passes on a M1 that was 7th fastest overall (btw, Lorenzo's bike was slower, 8th fastest overall). I don't believe Cal had difficulty keeping up with the Hondas, as he had the pace, I think we both would agree. I do believe executing a pass against the factory Hondas would be tricky and require some cunning; HOWEVER I do NOT by any stretch accept it was improbable. In addition, those defending Cal seem to be demanding "better bits" to complete with the factory Hondas, YET I bet if you were to ask him, 'do you think if Lorenzo or Rossi were riding your bike Sunday, do you think they would have been able to pass the Hondas?' I bet he would have said yes. Maybe Cal was setting up for a last lap attempt, which if he did, would mean he also thought it was within his reach to pass. I would be disappointed if he believed passing the a factory Honda was out of his reach, because that will make for a very difficult season if he again gets bogged behind one when on the occasion he has the better pace.
Jumkie
I agree Jum that Cal does have a problem passing and gets into a rut as he did behind Dovi last year, all we are asking for in our defence of him is he gets equal kit and then see what he can do, if he is no better then so be it but while he believes he is at a disadvantage and the way Rossi blew by on the straight says he is i think Yamaha are waisting a golden oppertunity to possibly put another bike ahead of the Hondas at some races and help in winning at least the constructors title.
I agree Jum that Cal does have a problem passing and gets into a rut as he did behind Dovi last year, all we are asking for in our defence of him is he gets equal kit and then see what he can do, if he is no better then so be it but while he believes he is at a disadvantage and the way Rossi blew by on the straight says he is i think Yamaha are waisting a golden oppertunity to possibly put another bike ahead of the Hondas at some races and help in winning at least the constructors title.
Crutchlow was losing 30+ metres on the straight while rossi was losing less than 5 metres( to the Hondas). This would suggest that crutchlows bike is down significantly on power, unless he is somehow extremely poor at getting onto the straight out of the last corner. I would be curioius to know the power differences between the M1s.
ps. Casey would have won that race
Casey who?.............................i know, I am struggling with withdrawal symptoms, and that is just the intromission side of things! haha
ps. Casey would have won that race
Casey who?.............................i know, I am struggling with withdrawal symptoms, and that is just the intromission side of things! haha
I accept that there are a lot of new <strike>.........</strike> opinions and am taking it easy for the sake of my blood pressure - which the nurse says 'could be better'.
Beer and .... to go, back on the ....... treadmill, but if she thinks I'm giving up baking, she can stick her sphygmomanometer where the sun don't shine!
Beer and .... to go, back on the ....... treadmill, but if she thinks I'm giving up baking, she can stick her sphygmomanometer where the sun don't shine!
Even I am sick about discussing the significance or lack thereof of bike advantages, but it seems tough to single out Cal for criticism for comments in this regard, given this seems to have been probably the primary obsession of many if not most participating in or following gp bike racing since 2006 at least.
I agree it is pointless and quite possibly detrimental to his prospects for him to do so, and that in the first race in the season the satellite bikes are likely to be at their closest to the factory bikes. Also for riders like Rossi and Lorenzo often a significant part of their "advantage" is their set-up ability, no doubt aided by having high quality factory team crews supporting them.
I agree it is pointless and quite possibly detrimental to his prospects for him to do so, and that in the first race in the season the satellite bikes are likely to be at their closest to the factory bikes. Also for riders like Rossi and Lorenzo often a significant part of their "advantage" is their set-up ability, no doubt aided by having high quality factory team crews supporting them.
Jumkie
Thanks for explaining Jum, couldn't have explained better myself, ^^ that was preciously my point. I don't think lack of power was a problem for Crutchlow in this race, he had plenty of pace on other parts of the track to encounter that but his main problem was that he fail to overtake both Honda's on twisty parts of the track.
I think overtaking is not Crutchlow strongest points at the moment as we have seen few times last year when he had better pace than Dovi but he failed to overtake him but as he said himself after the race he needs to take leaf out of Rossi's book and needs to bit more aggressive in upcoming races.
Thanks for explaining Jum, couldn't have explained better myself, ^^ that was preciously my point. I don't think lack of power was a problem for Crutchlow in this race, he had plenty of pace on other parts of the track to encounter that but his main problem was that he fail to overtake both Honda's on twisty parts of the track.
I think overtaking is not Crutchlow strongest points at the moment as we have seen few times last year when he had better pace than Dovi but he failed to overtake him but as he said himself after the race he needs to take leaf out of Rossi's book and needs to bit more aggressive in upcoming races.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
thedeal
I think this would be the desire of every rider on the grid, to have "equal" bits to the superior kit of competitors. Unfortunately only 4 riders at the moment are getting the package to compete for a championship. Lorenzo has often repeated the complaint of wanting more power, the HRC riders spent most of last year complaining about the handling, these guys will always want more of something or other, as they believe any deficiency in performance must be the machine. And these are guys on the undisputed best bikes, which I find a bit rich for them to complain. Given Cal's acceleration disparity, he wasn't going to be in a track position to pass any HRCs on the straights, but even the satellite M1 is rather on par if not better in terms of handling, a staple of the Yamaha platform. This is why they are in a position to pass going into turns. If the disparity between the RCVs and M1 was so great, we would not see them so competitive against eachother. There I contend that the rider must exploit the characteristics of their machine. When the riders complain about their technical "deficiencies" sometimes they are right, sometimes its an excuse. It been refreshing to hear Cal's honesty about, for example acknowledgement that Lorenzo and Stoner are better than him. It doesn't sit well with some people for him to admit such as they see it as weakness, and this argument is not without its merits.
On a related note, Disclaimer: the following will be tin hat time conspiracy theory (feel free to skip, I'm honestly not offended) I have spent a lot of time talking about the disparity and politics of the sport, there is no way Rossi would be happy to have Cal in a position to challenge him. I could imagine VR using his influence here. Not to mention, the league (Carmelo Clause) wouldn't want Cal on equal bits, assuming he could or would possibly outpace Rossi, especially now that they have successfully highjacked the top 4 seats. Oh, I know VR or Carmelo couldn't just pick up the phone and tell Hervey P, yo, chill out, but there are ways to get certain points across. Think about this, no matter who of the top four wins, its a resounding success for the league. To anybody reading this, forgive me for my obsession on the subject, even I am getting weary, honestly; but I can't help notice how Rossi's 2nd place was treated like a win, the fan base is re-energized, rating are up, and 46 merchandize is probably through the roof. The heir Marquez will most likely win next race, but if not him, I'd say Pedro. Do you see what has happened? We have a situation where throughout the season and beyond, every single race weekend, there will be (unless off script) high-fives in Dorna's offices. Do you think they want a rider like Cal to upset the party? And if you think the Brit market is to be considered, ...., half are Rossi fans anyway and are more than happy "he is back". Without getting into a debate whether Cal "deserves" a factory seat (as I think there are merits in the argument pro and cons, where I would have no problem arguing in favor of Cal on general principle) most likely the league won't push for it and are content having a Brit compete in the "mundialito" known as 'the best of the rest'.
I think this would be the desire of every rider on the grid, to have "equal" bits to the superior kit of competitors. Unfortunately only 4 riders at the moment are getting the package to compete for a championship. Lorenzo has often repeated the complaint of wanting more power, the HRC riders spent most of last year complaining about the handling, these guys will always want more of something or other, as they believe any deficiency in performance must be the machine. And these are guys on the undisputed best bikes, which I find a bit rich for them to complain. Given Cal's acceleration disparity, he wasn't going to be in a track position to pass any HRCs on the straights, but even the satellite M1 is rather on par if not better in terms of handling, a staple of the Yamaha platform. This is why they are in a position to pass going into turns. If the disparity between the RCVs and M1 was so great, we would not see them so competitive against eachother. There I contend that the rider must exploit the characteristics of their machine. When the riders complain about their technical "deficiencies" sometimes they are right, sometimes its an excuse. It been refreshing to hear Cal's honesty about, for example acknowledgement that Lorenzo and Stoner are better than him. It doesn't sit well with some people for him to admit such as they see it as weakness, and this argument is not without its merits.
On a related note, Disclaimer: the following will be tin hat time conspiracy theory (feel free to skip, I'm honestly not offended) I have spent a lot of time talking about the disparity and politics of the sport, there is no way Rossi would be happy to have Cal in a position to challenge him. I could imagine VR using his influence here. Not to mention, the league (Carmelo Clause) wouldn't want Cal on equal bits, assuming he could or would possibly outpace Rossi, especially now that they have successfully highjacked the top 4 seats. Oh, I know VR or Carmelo couldn't just pick up the phone and tell Hervey P, yo, chill out, but there are ways to get certain points across. Think about this, no matter who of the top four wins, its a resounding success for the league. To anybody reading this, forgive me for my obsession on the subject, even I am getting weary, honestly; but I can't help notice how Rossi's 2nd place was treated like a win, the fan base is re-energized, rating are up, and 46 merchandize is probably through the roof. The heir Marquez will most likely win next race, but if not him, I'd say Pedro. Do you see what has happened? We have a situation where throughout the season and beyond, every single race weekend, there will be (unless off script) high-fives in Dorna's offices. Do you think they want a rider like Cal to upset the party? And if you think the Brit market is to be considered, ...., half are Rossi fans anyway and are more than happy "he is back". Without getting into a debate whether Cal "deserves" a factory seat (as I think there are merits in the argument pro and cons, where I would have no problem arguing in favor of Cal on general principle) most likely the league won't push for it and are content having a Brit compete in the "mundialito" known as 'the best of the rest'.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
BJ.C
I suppose its better than being an old man who has watched GPs since the 70s and learned as little as you have, on top of being a .....
14158:Fact M1 engine.png]
Make of this what you will. Other than the rider's themselves, I have a few hunches based on Geo's recent work.
I suppose its better than being an old man who has watched GPs since the 70s and learned as little as you have, on top of being a .....
14158:Fact M1 engine.png]
Make of this what you will. Other than the rider's themselves, I have a few hunches based on Geo's recent work.
Attachments
Jumkie
I've often wondered if the reverse was happening to Spies his last 6 races or so at Tech3 ?
3479651365640409
I suppose its better than being an old man who has watched GPs since the 70s and learned as little as you have, on top of being a .....
Fact M1 engine.png
Make of this what you will. Other than the rider's themselves, I have a few hunches based on Geo's recent work.
I've often wondered if the reverse was happening to Spies his last 6 races or so at Tech3 ?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Intriguing. Im sure he got upgrades here and there as the season wore on. Please elaborate.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
Jumkie
Cal's hardly going to tweet:
<span style="color:#008080;@NeilHogsonWhoHadHisHelmetPissedInByGobert same as factory bikes engine wise ! I'm just not carrying the corner speed on the the straight. But at least some guy on Powerslide thinks I have a masculine jaw.
3479651365640409
I suppose its better than being an old man who has watched GPs since the 70s and learned as little as you have, on top of being a .....
Fact M1 engine.png
Make of this what you will. Other than the rider's themselves, I have a few hunches based on Geo's recent work.
Cal's hardly going to tweet:
<span style="color:#008080;@NeilHogsonWhoHadHisHelmetPissedInByGobert same as factory bikes engine wise ! I'm just not carrying the corner speed on the the straight. But at least some guy on Powerslide thinks I have a masculine jaw.
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