Butler: “Roadracing Is A Contact Sport,”

Arrabbiata1 · May 15, 2011

Gaz said:
Nor have I seen him do the punch type of thing - wave, gesticulate, stare yes but not the punch

No, not Hodgson and Slight - sure it was recent, like last two years and was not MotoGP but feeder class - watch, it will come to me in 2 weeks when this thread has 1084 pages

I also remember Yates in the US with teh dropkick.

Either way, I recall similar issues but only ever after and incident and in the sand trap (aside from Bazza grabbing the exhaust pipe that is)

Gaz

Could be Ianonne bizarrely nutting Pol Espagaro having just taken him out on the last lap.

BarryMachine · May 15, 2011

Gaz said:
No, not Hodgson and Slight - sure it was recent, like last two years and was not MotoGP but feeder class - watch, it will come to me in 2 weeks when this thread has 1084 pages

It was that Aussie wildcard at PI in last years Moto2 race.

Bit of a dipstick really

Can't even remember his name

Google is your friend .......... Wayne Maxwell

Gaz · May 15, 2011

BarryMachine said:
It was that Aussie wildcard at PI in last years Moto2 race.

Bit of a dipstick really

Can't even remember his name

Google is your friend .......... Wayne Maxwell

Nope, that isn't the one I was thinking of , think Arrab has it actually.

Arrab, was there any punishment there I wonder?

Speaking of which, what was Maxwell's punishment again?

Gaz

BarryMachine · May 15, 2011

D'oh ..... how did that happen ........ double with a post in between!

Gaz · May 15, 2011

BarryMachine said:
D'oh ..... how did that happen ........ double with a post in between!

I was to quick

And FWIW - Maxwell got a 5000 euro fine - so I suppose precedent set

Gaz

Arrabbiata1 · May 15, 2011

Gaz said:
Nope, that isn't the one I was thinking of , think Arrab has it actually.

Arrab, was there any punishment there I wonder?

Speaking of which, what was Maxwell's punishment again?

Gaz

Yeah there was a fine I think. I also remember Ianonne venturing into Espagaro's garage to apologise, cameras in tow...................but with his helmet off!!

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

Maybe after all Lorenzo is right and this aint a contact sport, but in that case i dont know why they didn't punish him for his move on Dovi in Le mans, or why he didn't say anything about it at all.

Butler lost a nice chance to show him that he does care for Lorenzo's worries for the safety of the riders.

bigbang · May 16, 2011

rossiofsky said:
Maybe after all Lorenzo is right and this aint a contact sport, but in that case i dont know why they didn't punish him for his move on Dovi in Le mans, or why he didn't say anything about it at all.

Butler lost a nice chance to show him that he does care for Lorenzo's worries for the safety of the riders.

Punish him for what exactly? Did you see any contact there? Because I have not and Dovi basically said after the race that he is okay with the move. I realize some hate Lorenzo but come on Jorge is doing a great job this year and is leading the championship even if his bike is slower than the 4 official Hondas.

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

Do you mean If Dovi took the corner as usual?

If he hadn't took up his bike they surely had crashed. I upload a few snapshots, just look at Dovi's style and the lean angle of him and his bike and compare it with the other riders infront (Sic, specially this one) and next to him (Lorenzo) and behind him (Rossi).

And since when the danger or fairness of a move has anything to do with the forgivness of the other rider? because Dovi didn't criticised him, it was nothing wrong with it.

Your free to think i hate him, but i,m more upsetof him for blaming Simoncelli for his own mistake in Valencia and making a big story out of it six months after, and i,m showing his double standards.

bigbang · May 16, 2011

rossiofsky said:
Do you mean If Dovi took the corner as usual?

If he hadn't took up his bike they surely had crashed. I upload a few snapshots, just look at Dovi's style and the lean angle of him and his bike and compare it with the other riders infront (Sic, specially this one) and next to him (Lorenzo) and behind him (Rossi).

And since when the danger or fairness of a move has anything to do with the forgivness of the other rider? because Dovi didn't criticised him, it was nothing wrong with it.

Neither Dovi nor Rossi saw anything unfair or dangerous with the move. Case closed and frankly nobody cares what you think.

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

bigbang said:
Neither Dovi nor Rossi saw anything unfair or dangerous with the move. Case closed and frankly nobody cares what you think.

Then why are you bothering?

stiefel · May 16, 2011

rossiofsky said:
Do you mean If Dovi took the corner as usual?

If he hadn't took up his bike they surely had crashed. I upload a few snapshots, just look at Dovi's style and the lean angle of him and his bike and compare it with the other riders infront (Sic, specially this one) and next to him (Lorenzo) and behind him (Rossi).

And since when the danger or fairness of a move has anything to do with the forgivness of the other rider? because Dovi didn't criticised him, it was nothing wrong with it.

Your free to think i hate him, but i,m more upsetof him for blaming Simoncelli for his own mistake in Valencia and making a big story out of it six months after, and i,m showing his double standards.

I have no racing experience but I believe the reason why many people, including most riders, think that Lorenzo's move on Dovi was ok and Simonchelli's move on Pedrosa wasn't, is clear to see from the pictures you posted: Dovi had an escape. Lorenzo was very aggressive there (and like Rossi claims about the Jerez incident, it has been suggested that he simply made a mistake and was too hot into the corner) but Dovi always had the choice of giving up his line to avoid collusion, as he obviously did. So you are absolutely right when you say that those pictures show Dovi on a different line and lean angle than the others, but I believe it is exactly because he could do this, people think it was a reasonable manoeuvre.

Simonchelli, on the other hand, left Pedrosa with no way to go. I have seen pictures on this board that show this very clearly (can't remember in which of the current threats, link anyone?). If Pedrosa had stuck to his line, he would have blind-sided Simonchelli.

I believe this is what is the crucial difference between these two manoeuvres.

yamaka46 · May 16, 2011

bigbang said:
Neither Dovi nor Rossi saw anything unfair or dangerous with the move. Case closed and frankly nobody cares what you think.

Who appointed you as the forum case closer

Dovizioso was prepared to give Lorenzo the benefit of the doubt, at least until he had seen the TV pictures, according to David Emmett. That is not the same as saying there was nothing unfair or dangerous.

As for Rossi's comments on this - link please.

All I have heard, again from the inimitable Mr Emmett, is

"If we follow what Lorenzo say on Friday" - Lorenzo had called for tighter scrutiny of tough moves, and examining whether rules on overtaking would be feasible - "then they have to give him a ride-through." Rossi said. "But unfortunately, nobody follow what Lorenzo says," he added.

renjith_varma · May 16, 2011

rossiofsky said:
Do you mean If Dovi took the corner as usual?

If he hadn't took up his bike they surely had crashed. I upload a few snapshots, just look at Dovi's style and the lean angle of him and his bike and compare it with the other riders infront (Sic, specially this one) and next to him (Lorenzo) and behind him (Rossi).

And since when the danger or fairness of a move has anything to do with the forgivness of the other rider? because Dovi didn't criticised him, it was nothing wrong with it.

Your free to think i hate him, but i,m more upsetof him for blaming Simoncelli for his own mistake in Valencia and making a big story out of it six months after, and i,m showing his double standards.

Video may confirm what you are saying, but Keshav says it was fine (and he knows better

), so you should rather believe him rather than your eye.

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

stiefel said:
I have no racing experience but I believe the reason why many people, including most riders, think that Lorenzo's move on Dovi was ok and Simonchelli's move on Pedrosa wasn't, is clear to see from the pictures you posted: Dovi had an escape. Lorenzo was very aggressive there (and like Rossi claims about the Jerez incident, it has been suggested that he simply made a mistake and was too hot into the corner) but Dovi always had the choice of giving up his line to avoid collusion, as he obviously did. So you are absolutely right when you say that those pictures show Dovi on a different line and lean angle than the others, but I believe it is exactly because he could do this, people think it was a reasonable manoeuvre.

Simonchelli, on the other hand, left Pedrosa with no way to go. I have seen pictures on this board that show this very clearly (can't remember in which of the current threats, link anyone?). If Pedrosa had stuck to his line, he would have blind-sided Simonchelli.

I believe this is what is the crucial difference between these two manoeuvres.

Fair enough for me, though i think Lorenzo and Dovi would have criticised Simoncelli for this exact move. btw i watch motogp for these actions and hate it to see them get punished for this.

stiefel · May 16, 2011

yamaka46 said:
Who appointed you as the forum case closer

Dovizioso was prepared to give Lorenzo the benefit of the doubt, at least until he had seen the TV pictures, according to David Emmett. That is not the same as saying there was nothing unfair or dangerous.

As for Rossi's comments on this - link please.

All I have heard, again from the inimitable Mr Emmett, is

"If we follow what Lorenzo say on Friday" - Lorenzo had called for tighter scrutiny of tough moves, and examining whether rules on overtaking would be feasible - "then they have to give him a ride-through." Rossi said. "But unfortunately, nobody follow what Lorenzo says," he added.

Not sure now is such a good time to be making such jokes for Rossi, his position as a spokesman for rider safety is already taken with more than a pinch of salt and given his recent comments (about the safety commission being called 'the Italian maffia') he is not too happy about it. He knows damn well why Lorenzo's move is not in the same league as Simonchelli's (which I believe he is referring to when he talks about a ride-through).

stiefel · May 16, 2011

rossiofsky said:
Fair enough for me, though i think Lorenzo and Dovi would have criticised Simoncelli for this exact move. btw i watch motogp for these actions and hate it to see them get punished for this.

Simonchelli is under the microscope now, that's for certain. Then again, I does have himself to blame and ultimately, once he start accepting some blame, he might actually learn something and become a better rider (right now, his team-mate on the non-factory kit is ahead of him in the point standings).

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

Renjith said:
Video may confirm what you are saying, but Keshav says it was fine (and he knows better

), so you should rather believe him rather than your eye.

Actually i rewatched the race again (the bbc coverage) and saw after the race, all commentators were talking about it, and found it a hard one. In my eyes these moves are a bit agressive but legal and usually accepted by riders excpt when they dont like eachother, then sometimes the loser will complain about it.

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

stiefel said:
Simonchelli is under the microscope now, that's for certain. Then again, I does have himself to blame and ultimately, once he start accepting some blame, he might actually learn something and become a better rider (right now, his team-mate on the non-factory kit is ahead of him in the point standings).

Yes your right it is better for him to cool done and learn something from this, I believe it will take a lot of pressure off him, if he said sorry and changed his way a bit.

He lets his feeling get his control too much maybe, that shows in his racing also, he could stay relax and score a nice podium, but like you say, even with the factory bike he is still behind his team mate.

yamaka46 · May 16, 2011

stiefel said:
Not sure now is such a good time to be making such jokes for Rossi, his position as a spokesman for rider safety is already taken with more than a pinch of salt and given his recent comments (about the safety commission being called 'the Italian maffia') he is not too happy about it. He knows damn well why Lorenzo's move is not in the same league as Simonchelli's (which I believe he is referring to when he talks about a ride-through).

yamaka46 said:
"If we follow what Lorenzo say on Friday" - Lorenzo had called for tighter scrutiny of tough moves, and examining whether rules on overtaking would be feasible - "then they have to give him a ride-through." Rossi said. "But unfortunately, nobody follow what Lorenzo says," he added.

I think Rossi's quote had little to do with the actual actions of Simoncelli, or indeed, his own actions in Jerez which could have been seen to be inline for a ride through if Lorenzo's desired "unsafe passing" rules had been brought in before then.

I think it had more to do with the fact that Lorenzo was actually calling for rules regarding "unsafe" passing and that the latest penalty where race direction had decided that the pass was unsafe was Simoncellis ride through. Rossi was taking the piss, as indeed I was from the comfort of my armchair. Lorenzo shouldn't ..... about others dishing it out, only to do the same the following race.

Lorenzo would not IMO have made the corner without Dovi being the pinball. Not saying he'd have crashed, but he would have run very wide. After the manouevre it was Dovi who was forced off line and had to rejoin a few places back whereas Lorenzo made a place. Any "unsafe passing" rule should have seen Lorenzo penalised in some way otherwise what would be the point of him advocating such rules.....

Butler: “Roadracing Is A Contact Sport,”

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