Butler: “Roadracing Is A Contact Sport,”

rossiofsky · May 16, 2011

yamaka46 said:
I think Rossi's quote had little to do with the actual actions of Simoncelli, or indeed, his own actions in Jerez which could have been seen to be inline for a ride through if Lorenzo's desired "unsafe passing" rules had been brought in before then.

I think it had more to do with the fact that Lorenzo was actually calling for rules regarding "unsafe" passing and that the latest penalty where race direction had decided that the pass was unsafe was Simoncellis ride through. Rossi was taking the piss, as indeed I was from the comfort of my armchair. Lorenzo shouldn't ..... about others dishing it out, only to do the same the following race.

Lorenzo would not IMO have made the corner without Dovi being the pinball. Not saying he'd have crashed, but he would have run very wide. After the manouevre it was Dovi who was forced off line and had to rejoin a few places back whereas Lorenzo made a place. Any "unsafe passing" rule should have seen Lorenzo penalised in some way otherwise what would be the point of him advocating such rules.....

I get the same feeling from reading this. He wanted to tell him look you could be punished now if the rules were changed.

No rider can name himself clean forever, and if they call for the penalty for others, sooner or later that same rule will bite themselves. Simoncelli's punishment may become a normal thing and it will rob us of more actions, because riders wont dare to go for a lot of moves.

Edit: I perefer to see they decide after the race for these kind of things , and if they should hand a penalty, make it for the next race or take some time off from the riders after the race.

Jumkie · May 16, 2011

The Lorenzo move on Dovi is a non issue and not even worth mentioning. Debate these people at ur own peril. Know this, ur wasting ur time.

Talpa · May 16, 2011

Jumkie said:
The Lorenzo move on Dovi is a non issue and not even worth mentioning. Debate these people at ur own peril. Know this, ur wasting ur time.

Really?? I believe I saw a what seemed to be a puff of smoke from the rubber as they 'touched'.....

This doesn't sound right coming from you? How about Proper Racing Etiquette? Is does this only apply to Rossi.....?

Please keep it coming.....

Jumkie · May 16, 2011

Dovi didnt hav a problem with it. He understood intent. Unlike Rossi/Lorenzo Motegi, where Rossi repeatedly tried to Simochelli Lorenzo.

I dont think the move would even be mention unless Rossi would have issue ur marching orders to echo in choir.

Arrabbiata1 · May 17, 2011

One of the most enthralling races that I've seen in recent years was Sachsenring 2006. the lead was contested by Vale, Marco, Dani and Nicky - and it was close, very close but because of this - at times high risk. Remember Nicky's smoking leathers from leaning on Pedrosa's front tyre around Omega, and the rubber marks after? At any time many of the moves made during the race could have gone .... up, but in spite of this the passing up front was calculated well measured and at viable points of the circuit (although KRjnr did skittle Tamada during the same race). It seems to me there have been some moves which have smacked of desperation of late. It's mostly all good when it comes off, but you have to question the intent in addition to the execution of the move. As I said in the race thread:

Arrabbiata1 said:
Charlie Cox opined that had Rossi have pulled that move there would have been no penalty, but in short Valentino simply wouldn't have attempted such an audacious pass at this stage in the race at such a notoriously nasty corner. Unable to have assailed Casey's lead he would have carefully chosen his moment, and pounced. I think much like Rossi's defence of his mistake at Jerez, Marco found himself with substantially more speed on the approach to the corner. Dani was clearly tiring but I admire him for coming straight back at Simoncelli. He wasn't however able to brake as late as Marco on the approach to Museum who came hurtling around the outside. Dani was going to have to run slightly wide out of the apex - and actually Marco did well to cut it back in but cut his nose off in the process which is when Pedrosa who had made the apex but was unable to maintain the tight line clipped his rear.

Had Marco cut back in slightly later and there would have been no contact Dani would have exited slightly wide, we'd all be talking about the pass of the season by Simoncelli and J4rn0 would have ...... his pants.

The penalty? Harsh - and unquestionably dealt out in the face of the recent furore surrounding Simoncelli's riding. I'm confident that no other rider on the grid would have been hauled in for a stop-go following that. Look what Marquez did to Reading at Estoril in comparison. It's always the same. Race Direction let it simmer and refuse to intervene until the paddock pressure cookers about to blow. They then dole out all manner of reactionary over zealous punishments in an inconsistent and rash manner. Simoncelli had no ill intent by this move, he was way faster into the corner, and I don't think Dani let off to run him wide, although as Rog points out, how could Race Direction know that at the point of meting out the penalty. It was however a poorly measured and risky move which has possibly cost Dani yet another championship elect.

Keshav · May 17, 2011

Renjith said:
Video may confirm what you are saying, but Keshav says it was fine (and he knows better

), so you should rather believe him rather than your eye.

Dovi had no issue with the pass. It was a hard pass but not out-of-control. If Dovi and his team had no problem with it - why should anyone take your as usual, ill-informed comments to heart? Do you (Who've never even attended a race) claim to know better than the professional rider who himself was passed? You continue to reveal the bottomless depths of your ignorance. What little objectivity you may have pretended to have has totally gone out the window now that you've developed this pathological need to take cheap shots at me at every opportunity. Get a grip sonny.

yamaka46 · May 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
The Lorenzo move on Dovi is a non issue and not even worth mentioning. Debate these people at ur own peril. Know this, ur wasting ur time.

Hmmm, hope you're not trying to paint me bopper yellow

Keshav said:
Dovi had no issue with the pass. It was a hard pass but not out-of-control. If Dovi and his team had no problem with it - why should anyone take your as usual, ill-informed comments to heart? Do you (Who've never even attended a race) claim to know better than the professional rider who himself was passed? You continue to reveal the bottomless depths of your ignorance. What little objectivity you may have pretended to have has totally gone out the window now that you've developed this pathological need to take cheap shots at me at every opportunity. Get a grip sonny.

As I have already alluded, I don't believe Dovi's comment was as black and white as you make it.

From David Emmett:

"What happen with Lorenzo was the same as what happen with Simoncelli several times, but I think the important point to understand is if the rider do this on purpose, or if he just brake too late and couldn't avoid it."

This is not the same as saying that Lorenzo's pass was not out of control. If a rider "brakes too late" and cannot avoid hitting another, surely there is an element of out of control, no?

That was, afterall, the problem many had with Rossi's taking out of Stoner in Jerez. Rossi himself admitted that braking too late (and therefore not fully in control for the line he had to try to take due to Stoner's position on the outside) was the problem, and that it was not an attempt at an overtake (assuming you believe him).

It's still a racing incident unless malice and aforethought are speculated. I don't think any of the riders can be accused of this. Ambition outweighing talent, yes. Maliciousness, no.

rossiofsky · May 19, 2011

Jumkie said:
Dovi didnt hav a problem with it. He understood intent. Unlike Rossi/Lorenzo Motegi, where Rossi repeatedly tried to Simochelli Lorenzo.

I dont think the move would even be mention unless Rossi would have issue ur marching orders to echo in choir.

I remember that in PI last year Not only Hayden had no problems with Rossi's move, but also no one from commentators or other fans mentioned any negative about it, but that didn't stop your bitching about it.

How often should we show you your dubble standards? you found that pass by Rossi an aggressive one, but this one it's ok. Dont forget this will happen again in next gp's and i'll be there to show your DS again.

Here is a vid of Hayden Rossi battle in PI 2010 for those who have forget it, slow motion from every angle, and compare it with this one.

http://www.mediafire.com/?w88bijfp75cbgwr

Keshav · May 19, 2011

yamaka46 said:
Hmmm, hope you're not trying to paint me bopper yellow

As I have already alluded, I don't believe Dovi's comment was as black and white as you make it.

From David Emmett:

"What happen with Lorenzo was the same as what happen with Simoncelli several times, but I think the important point to understand is if the rider do this on purpose, or if he just brake too late and couldn't avoid it."

This is not the same as saying that Lorenzo's pass was not out of control. If a rider "brakes too late" and cannot avoid hitting another, surely there is an element of out of control, no?

That was, afterall, the problem many had with Rossi's taking out of Stoner in Jerez. Rossi himself admitted that braking too late (and therefore not fully in control for the line he had to try to take due to Stoner's position on the outside) was the problem, and that it was not an attempt at an overtake (assuming you believe him).

It's still a racing incident unless malice and aforethought are speculated. I don't think any of the riders can be accused of this. Ambition outweighing talent, yes. Maliciousness, no.

Just because you have a giant yellow 46 in your avatar??? Heavens no where would anyone get that idea??? Just kidding!

I find the Dave Emmet quote a bit confusing - so will refrain from commenting. However - the much respected Mr. E is

not a spokesman for Dovi, who heretofore has made no negative statements regarding the incident. Until we hear

otherwise, I will assume that Dovi had no problem with the non-incident.

It's not a question of premeditated maliciousness. Rather, it's about Simoncelli's bone-headed contempt for the safety of other riders

rossiofsky · May 19, 2011

Keshav said:
Just because you have a giant yellow 46 in your avatar??? Heavens no where would anyone get that idea??? Just kidding!

I find the Dave Emmet quote a bit confusing - so will refrain from commenting. However - the much respected Mr. E is

not a spokesman for Dovi, who heretofore has made no negative statements regarding the incident. Until we hear

otherwise, I will assume that Dovi had no problem with the non-incident.

It's not a question of premeditated maliciousness. Rather, it's about Simoncelli's bone-headed contempt for the safety of other riders

Since when do you guy's care this much for the opinion of the other rider? So by this you mean you wont ever criticise an aggressive move or a fault if the other rider himself doesn't complain about it???? so why we give our opinions at all, let's just repeat their quotes and take a side.

The much respected Schwantz who himself has been there and done it all before (since you also usually refer to your professional opinions based on your riding experiences), found this about Butler 's "contact sport" idea and Simoncelli's supposed aggressive riding style and the commentators who repeatedly talk about it:

It's funny, because to me, the commentary on the race was all, "Is he going to make a clean pass? He's got him set up now, can he make a clean pass?" I've heard all kinds of different things mentioned this last weekend.

Is motorcycle racing a contact sport? Well, I think sometimes the bikes touch. I think sometimes the riders touch. But I wouldn't call it a contact sport. I think a contact sport is football, or Aussie rules football, or rugby. That's what I call contact. If, on occasions, things get tight in corners and bikes touch or people touch, then yeah. But I don't think you use your bike as ... I don't want to say as a weapon, but as a defense mechanism. I don't think you should put yourself in a position with your motorcycle that maybe you know what's coming, and you've seen it happen before, but, "I'm going to do this and hope that this guy that I'm racing with thinks better of it. Maybe sees me here and decides not to do it." That's kind of what I think Dani did.

Dani had seen how quick Simoncelli had caught him in the two or three laps leading up to that pass. He'd seen his lap board go from +2 to +0. He saw him come by him on the brakes as he went into the corner before the incident. And then, Dani being smaller, both Hondas being probably somewhat equal, the smaller guy's going to accelerate down that straightaway faster. But knowing how strong Simoncelli was at that point in the race, I don't think I would've put myself in that position, to hope that "I'm going to go up the inside. I know I'm probably going to get outbraked. He might get about halfway around me, and when he gets halfway around me, if he decides to go ahead and take the corner, I'm going to be in trouble." Because there is no recovery from that.

At that point, Dani's options are, "I've screwed up. Do I really want to take Marco out? If I do, I've got to get back on the gas, and I've just got to sacrifice us both." Instead, Dani did what was right, and didn't do that ... stayed off the gas, ended up falling and has now got a broken collarbone. But my thought process ... and I read somewhere a quote that Valentino said that Marco's maybe taken this a little bit too far, and that was too physical a move. Well, he said he thought Marco should've followed Dani. I say Marco just passed Dani, and I think Dani should follow Marco. I don't like to see motorcycles coming together and guys falling down, because nine times out of ten it's a no-win situation for both guys. Fortunately for Marco, there was enough run-off on the outside of the track in that corner, and he was able to run to the outside of the pavement, over through the gravel, and get back on the track. Obviously, the officiating crew there with the FIM decided that maybe that deserved a penalty. The move, the contact, whatever it might've been, and that's what Marco got. I'm not sure that that was the right call, but that's the call that I guess we all have to live with. I texted Marco a couple of times. He said he didn't think he deserved it, much like I told him I didn't think he deserved it. But he said, "Lorenzo is World Champ right now. He's been making a lot of stink about my riding. I guess they listen to his voice a little bit more than they listen to mine," is the way Marco put it.

the full interview:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/May/11051734x34=lemans.htm

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