Butler: “Roadracing Is A Contact Sport,”

It's so easy, if rider A knocks rider B off track, or rider A causes rider B to crash while rider A is attempting a pass, then rider A should be docked whatever points they get for that poor etiquette.



The main attraction of bike racing is that they have SO much more room to pass that they don't HAVE to pull a BTTC style block/berm/shove passing move.



What we don't need is another fatality even though we all HATE one rider or another!

Talpa said:

Yes indeed. I'm sure there are many in SBK ranks all over the globe who wouldn't mind the odd touch as they do it ever time they race!

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Valentino rossi is I am sure statistically the safest rider in history, and last time we discussed this I think the best anyone could come up with for injuries due to any action of his was a minor foot injury to a single rider, and whilst we can argue whether his performances in races which most current riders didn't contest entitle him to be judged by different standards this is a simple matter of fact which applies to his entire (very long) career.



We differ over wsbk, I like the racing too but believe the top echelon of motogp whether or not the current 800 formula is any good would be too far ahead of the current wsbk field to be engaging in any fairing bashing with them.



However, assuming you are at least partly referring to stoner whilst accepting you have not mentioned him by name he has basically complained about rossi concerning 2 incidents/races, the second of which would have annoyed any rider you care to name. The wsbk guys get annoyed by such things too, can you name an incident like the jerez take down in wsbk where the rider concerned was unperturbed?

I was refering to jls comments, not talking about stoner sorry Mick I know you love too



It's funny though safety issues, or more so whinging about them, in regards to racing between riders (not circuit issues) have only really come about in the 800 cc era by a few of the current crop of riders of whom have won most of their races by completely clearing out. Such is the electronics age, it has not only brought dismal racing, but a bunch of ........ I completely agree with vr on this.



Just look at pi last year, Nicky and vr had a very close scrap simliar to that of VR and jl at motegi or even vr and stoner at Germany. Nicky never bitched about it. Funniliy enough stoner didn't ..... about Germany either seeing as he was the one who pulled what others would call a dangerous move.....and snatched the final podium spot because of it.



The bitching is aimed at Rossi by his closest competition who incidently can't stand him. Sic just happened to cop a bit from jl to try to steal the show at estoril.



Rossi's comments put great perspective on this Hypocritical rubbish

Talpa said:

I was refering to jls comments, not talking about stoner sorry Mick I know you love too



It's funny though safety issues, or more so whinging about them, in regards to racing between riders (not circuit issues) have only really come about in the 800 cc era by a few of the current crop of riders of whom have won most of their races by completely clearing out. Such is the electronics age, it has not only brought dismal racing, but a bunch of ........ I completely agree with vr on this.



Just look at pi last year, Nicky and vr had a very close scrap simliar to that of VR and jl at motegi or even vr and stoner at Germany. Nicky never bitched about it. Funniliy enough stoner didn't ..... about Germany either seeing as he was the one who pulled what others would call a dangerous move.....and snatched the final podium spot because of it.



The bitching is aimed at Rossi by his closest competition who incidently can't stand him. Sic just happened to cop a bit from jl to try to steal the show at estoril.



Rossi's comments put great perspective on this Hypocritical rubbish

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I actually defended rossi's action in regard to the lorenzo attempted pass, partly because I thought jorge's ego was involved with him apparently expecting rossi just to give way presumably because he now considered himself to be the number one rider.



Whilst you and valentino had no problem with stoner's pass last year I think stoner may have going by his post-race comments; whilst he is demonstrably not a ...../overly concerned for his own safety as shown by his riding of that thing valentino is now on I think he does have a personal view about the safety of others, perhaps even prompted by the consequences of his 2006 crash.



It also remains to be seen whether stoner clearing out for his wins when on the ducati was because he can race in no other way or because the bike couldn't be ridden to victory any other way; valentino can't get it to turn particularly mid-corner as yet either. Lorenzo obviously can win other than by clearing out and has prevailed in race long duels with valentino to prove this, although I think valentino would have the advantage in terms of wins in such duels during their time at ducati; beating valentino at all in such a duel is remarkable though. Dani has almost never prevailed in such duels in the premier class (almost never now rather than never as was the case before estoril), but I can scarcely recall him complaining about the riding of others either.



I think simoncelli is the one who was reckless and dangerous in the lower classes, but lorenzo had his share of such behaviour too. So far this year I am not sure anyone has much cause for complaint as simoncelli appears to have mainly only been dangerous to himself; in retrospect it looks as though he and stoner had self -induced moments simultaneously on cold tyres in the first corner at estoril. Whether this was partly due to a reaction from stoner to simoncelli's impending moment is hard to know, but I think marco was entitled to go for that corner.

Talpa said:

It's funny though safety issues, or more so whinging about them, in regards to racing between riders (not circuit issues) have only really come about in the 800 cc era by a few of the current crop of riders of whom have won most of their races by completely clearing out. Such is the electronics age, it has not only brought dismal racing, but a bunch of ........ I completely agree with vr on this.

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Talps, there has lond been talk about the safety issues caused by other riders, not just in this so called 'electronic' age but well before. Who can forget the complaints raised against many of the backmarkers of years gone by such as the mobile chicane himself, Michael Rudroff, or the riders who constantly complained that Christian Sarron was a loose cannon etc. All riders have and will at some time raise issues relating to the on track behaviour of their competitors, sometimes with genuine grievance sometimes with perceived grievances, but it is not relevant to this 'electronic' age as such.

Talpa said:

Just look at pi last year, Nicky and vr had a very close scrap simliar to that of VR and jl at motegi or even vr and stoner at Germany. Nicky never bitched about it. Funniliy enough stoner didn't ..... about Germany either seeing as he was the one who pulled what others would call a dangerous move.....and snatched the final podium spot because of it.

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I recall your take on that move at the time and see it has not changed - you felt it was a perfectly good move (as do I for that matter) and yes, sure some may have felt it as dangerous but there are also those that firmly believe that two riders within two metres is uncalled for, or that 3 riders split by half a second is not close racing.



Fact (or is it opinion?) is that you cannot please all the people all the time (thankfully as well ........... imagine places like this if we all thought everything was right, just and perfect)

Talpa said:

The bitching is aimed at Rossi by his closest competition who incidently can't stand him. Sic just happened to cop a bit from jl to try to steal the show at estoril.

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Disagree (but then you probably expected that).



I actually don't see it is an attack on Rossi so much as an attack on riding standards across the board and for some a genuine attempt to 'create a heirachy of virtue'. Were the attacks purely on Rossi there would not be complaints about other riders at the same time (remember a number of complaints about Toseland, Barbera etc).



Additionally, not all complaints, whinges and whines are coming from the 'nearest competitors' either as there have been complaints from riders from positions 1 to 16 (yes, remember reading a complaint by Elias of all people).

Talpa said:

Rossi's comments put great perspective on this Hypocritical rubbish

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What hypocrisy would that be?



If the hypocrisy is that in your perception others are mentioning dangerous riding when they have indulged in it themselves thence once again, all are hypocrits as they have all at one point complained and all at one point been accused (well, maybe not Hayden).











Gaz

BHarvey said:

It's so easy, if rider A knocks rider B off track, or rider A causes rider B to crash while rider A is attempting a pass, then rider A should be docked whatever points they get for that poor etiquette.



The main attraction of bike racing is that they have SO much more room to pass that they don't HAVE to pull a BTTC style block/berm/shove passing move.



What we don't need is another fatality even though we all HATE one rider or another!

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Wouldn't work for a number of reasons not least being that (in your example) rider A should not be punished unless he has performed a dangerous, negligent or culpable manouver for which he is 100% responsible. Then of course you have the definitions of dangerous, negligent and cuplable as no doubt the definition would vary from person to person etc.



Additionally is the larger problem that should a clear cut penalty of 'points docked' be in place, why should 'rider A' continue in the race at all (from his perspective) and of course what impact does or could 'rider A' remaining on track have on following riders (could they crash alone trying to catch him/her and if so, what then)?



My belief is that irrespective of whom is involved, each and every incident that results in a yellow flag situation needs to be 'investigated' to determine the cause, any punitive actions and also any procedural improvements from learnings. Should punitive action be decided upon it can be taken during the race (if clear cut) or after the race where time can be added (ie. a chicane cut) through to exclusion and/or suspension.



The unfair aspect of all race incidents involving 2 or more parties is that there will always at least one totally innocent person whom has likely had their race affected adversely by the action of others, potentially had a championship affected or worse, received an injury yet for these innocents there is no way to recoup points etc as one does not genuinely know with certainty what their result would have been.











Gaz

Tekniqs said:

i love that the new kids on the block (no diss intended) are stepping up. rossi is my fave racer since he won the first race i ever watched (china 08) but competition is always great for the spectators.

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Stepping up is understating it a bit, they've been ahead of him for a over a year.

BHarvey said:

What we don't need is another fatality even though we all HATE one rider or another!

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Speak for yourself, i don't hate any of them and come to think of it i've not really spoken to anyone who does.

Talpa said:

It's funny though safety issues, or more so whinging about them, in regards to racing between riders (not circuit issues) have only really come about in the 800 cc era by a few of the current crop of riders of whom have won most of their races by completely clearing out. Such is the electronics age, it has not only brought dismal racing, but a bunch of ........ I completely agree with vr on this.



Rossi's comments put great perspective on this Hypocritical rubbish

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What a load of rubbish, their is no connection between the era or the riders typical winning styles. If anything it is just natural advancement of the sport. And while you are talking about 'hypocritical rubbish' don't forget how much of a '.....' rossi was after turkey 2007.



On the talk of penalties, i think they have it about right, perhaps slightly on the side of not doing enough but it's a difficult issue. Not that many riders have been injured as a result of questionably conduct in my recent memory, and over-acting and handing out penalties all the time spoils the sport and creates further problems for the race direction as they have to enforce a consistent standard throughout. Look at what F1 was like a couple of years back, we don't want that here.

I am beginning to find the idea that anyone who can ride like these guys is a ".....".



Safety issues and rider behaviour has always been a point of concern, but the idea of saying that someone who can ride that quick, win a world championship in the premier class doesn't say much for the opposition, Rossi included.



This has been one of the sillier tangents taken of late

Beef Supreme said:

Lorenzo: "MotoGP is not a contact sport and if it was I'd leave."

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I agree with him. Contact when overtaking is just lazy riding due to a lack of skill or patience. This myth that the old era or WSBK is full of bashing fairings is just comical. I look at it as the RedNeck version of motorcycle racing.



Butler is a joke and nothing but a puppet. The only thing that could have made his comment worse was if he finished it with "sometimes riders are going to die and that is just bad luck as long as the viewers tune in."



Some of you guys can't see the value in riders like Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa. I see it as a lack of intelligence when you prefer smash em up derby over high precision, high speed racing at the pinnacle of bike racing.



The only ..... that I see at the moment is Rossi because he can't stand that the sport is moving on from him and he is struggling to win and be relevant since his advantage has been taken away.

Beef Supreme said:

Lorenzo: "MotoGP is not a contact sport and if it was I'd leave."

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I agree with him. Contact when overtaking is just lazy riding due to a lack of skill or patience. This myth that the old era or WSBK is full of bashing fairings is just comical. I look at it as the RedNeck version of motorcycle racing.



Butler is a joke and nothing but a puppet. The only thing that could have made his comment worse was if he finished it with "sometimes riders are going to die and that is just bad luck as long as the viewers tune in."



Some of you guys can't see the value in riders like Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa. I see it as a lack of intelligence when you prefer smash em up derby over high precision, high speed racing at the pinnacle of bike racing.



The only ..... that I see at the moment is Rossi because he can't stand that the sport is moving on from him and he is struggling to win and be relevant since his advantage has been taken away.

Mental Anarchist said:

I agree with him. Contact when overtaking is just lazy riding due to a lack of skill or patience.

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I don't think it is anywhere near that clear cut. Sometimes riders will make contact, that is just how it is and how it should stay in my opinion. Contact does not necessarily mean someone has done something wrong and that is a very important point.

Talpa said:

I was refering to jls comments, not talking about stoner sorry Mick I know you love too



It's funny though safety issues, or more so whinging about them, in regards to racing between riders (not circuit issues) have only really come about in the 800 cc era by a few of the current crop of riders of whom have won most of their races by completely clearing out. Such is the electronics age, it has not only brought dismal racing, but a bunch of ........ I completely agree with vr on this.



Just look at pi last year, Nicky and vr had a very close scrap simliar to that of VR and jl at motegi or even vr and stoner at Germany. Nicky never bitched about it. Funniliy enough stoner didn't ..... about Germany either seeing as he was the one who pulled what others would call a dangerous move.....and snatched the final podium spot because of it.



The bitching is aimed at Rossi by his closest competition who incidently can't stand him. Sic just happened to cop a bit from jl to try to steal the show at estoril.



Rossi's comments put great perspective on this Hypocritical rubbish

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A refreshing and dramatic change.

Talpa said:

Rossi's comments put great perspective on this Hypocritical rubbish

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I think this is what you meant to say....



Rossi's hypocritical comments put great perspective on this rubbish.

For what it's worth - the commentators during the FP3 session mentioned that 8 riders (rare) showed up at the safety commission session this weekend to complain about Marco's antics.

Keshav said:

For what it's worth - the commentators during the FP3 session mentioned that 8 riders (rare) showed up at the safety commission session this weekend to complain about Marco's antics.

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Yes and Rossi left as soon as it wasn't just him and Capirossi. Another door closes.

michaelm said:

Valentino rossi is I am sure statistically the safest rider in history

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huh? what does "statistically the safest rider in history" mean?