Burgess defends Rossi's tyre move

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 6 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>im a realist and support most riders on the grid so i suppose im a motogp fanboy i support rossi for his brilliant riding and focus not his persona, i would imagine he is a very single minded person in real life, all greats are !

if you want to be a winner, use all the ammo in your arsenal, if you dont, what the .... are you doing at that level ?

your posts get more and more Insightful lex

The only ammo in Rossi's arsenal is your blind eye.

Dorna would never have made this move if they believed fans had any clairvoyance.


The more I think about the arguments of the other side, the more I think they are right. We said Rossi lacked integrity. They said he was trying to win. We said Dorna lacked integrity. They said Dorna is just trying to make money. As you have pointed out by means of your own example, this travesty has been sponsored by the apathy of the fan base.

Congratulations, you have successfully heaped blame for the demise of the authenticity of the sport upon yourselves.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. You didn't seem to be able to reason through this "tire deal" either.

You have stabbed the man you hold in such high esteem directly in the back by indirectly blanketing his great achievements with a veil of corruption. Strangely enough, the Rossi-haters are the only ones showing any compassion your hero--we're the people who want his achievements to be verifiable and authentic.

We must really hate him to say the things we say.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 7 2008, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

Now go tell that to Rossi.

You can't because you're a Rossi fanboy which is the same defect Rog seems to have. Your logic and nihilistic tendencies are somewhat sound, but they are miserably misapplied.

Nobody cares that Rossi gets preferential treatment. People care that Rossi gets preferential treatment from Dorna/FIM.

He he, so now the FIM is also corupted? Not that I really think they are free of coruption, just not in this case. But I', sure you have proof of this as you throw it out here?

Dorna/FIM doesn't care .... about the person Rossi, Dorna care about their money as that's what they are in the sport for, making money.

Why is it so bad that (if) he recived so called preferential treatment? Others do all the time, why not him to?
In difference to what some says here it's not as if he has any unfair advantage over other riders.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You're right. Rossi just needed to shut the .... up and go ride in a fully regulated series.

He does what everyone does, fight for the best possible position. That fight is done both on and off track, in case you didn't know.
So don't be such a sore looser, it doesn't look good on you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 6 2008, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He he, so now the FIM is also corupted? Not that I really think they are free of coruption, just not in this case. But I', sure you have proof of this as you throw it out here?

Dorna/FIM doesn't care .... about the person Rossi, Dorna care about their money as that's what they are in the sport for, making money.

Why is it so bad that (if) he recived so called preferential treatment? Others do all the time, why not him to?
In difference to what some says here it's not as if he has any unfair advantage over other riders.


He does what everyone does, fight for the best possible position. That fight is done both on and off track, in case you didn't know.
So don't be such a sore looser, it doesn't look good on you.

Dorna and the FIM subsidize rider salaries or boost riders from key markets onto good machines. They don't even try to hide it any longer. Nicky probably benefited from these tactics, his career has suffered as a result. Every achievement he makes is viewed with skepticism. The same is true for Stoner.

Too bad you seem to be so eager to sign your man up for the same disdain.

I haven't lost anything other than any sense of satisfaction I might get from saying I got to watch the greatest motorcycle rider ever. Excuse me, if I'm a bit sore now that I realize I can't take any of Vale's subsequent achievements seriously--at least not until he returns to the world of free market contracts like everyone else.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 6 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yam46, thanks for your reply. I ‘m sorry if I sounded a bit brash. (If you check my post time it was 2am in my neck of the woods, yes I’m aware I spend too much time here, I’m a bit of a nerd). Anyway, you make some good points to question what “really” happened behind closed doors; however, what we know from the public record is substantial and enough to question the impartiality of the process. Do you remember the quote I posted from Speed TV regarding how Mr. Ezp felt he was forced to give Bstone an ultimatum? Yeah, imagine that, an ultimatum—and for whom? Click here for the quote.this is what I would call the smoking gun. I agree with what you said about Rossi having the right to demand. Sure, I get that, but he did go beyond simple and good faith demands wouldn’t you say? We all pressure our employers for better equipment, work conditions, and such. I get that. Now lets take your example. Suppose you and a colleague with EQUAL SENIORITY demand the same “perceived” upgrade, lets just say for a moment it nothing better, but it just will make you more comfortable. Now suppose your employer gives your colleague his demand and doesn’t give it to you; you are overlooked and a reasonable explanation for his decision is absent. Even though your example is still missing the element that your boss is suppose to be equal; which is why professional sports have a governing body whose DUTY it is to be neutral--this is astronomically more imperative. Note that this neutrality is EXPLICIT (as opposed to implied). If you can imagine, what if your colleague made more money for the company, then I think your boss might be more inclined to give him, not you, his demands—but this is not the case in an authentic contest which is why they have a governing body, to buffer this very thing.

BTW, thanks for acknowledging that this isn't just Rossi bashing. I know my style of debate can come off this way. Some of it is intentional to add flavor to the debate and get a predictable rise out of the Rossi fans (sorry, I can be a bit of an ... sometimes). But as you might imagine, we hold our favorite riders up to a high standard, and we never want to think that they are capable of doing anything other than the highest ultraistic intentions. But sometimes they do act outside of good faith, and when you got a governing body apparently aiding and abating this behavior then its reasonable that this will be pointed out. This is why I think they are both culpable. But if you must know, the greater blame is on the governing body who caved in for him. Regardless, the damage is done to the integrity of the sport by skewing the decision making toward one rider.
Jumkie, you're not the only one who spends too much time here. My post was around midnight last night here in Oz I think!

I appreciate what you are saying about governing bodies maintaining neutrality, however Dorna is not the governing body in motogp. They do of course have influence on what happens - there are 4 votes, one for the FIM, one for IRTA (the teams), one for the manufacturers (MSMA) and one for Dorna. (sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but...)

If all the seven MSMA members vote for or against any technical proposal their vote cannot be overridden, ie the MSMA can unilaterally enact or veto anything technical regardless of the FIM, IRTA and Dorna. If, however, one or more members of the MSMA votes against the rest, then the MSMA vote is classed as a simple "Yes" or "No" and can be overridden. In the event of a tie, Dorna does have the deciding vote.

Now, assuming Ezpeleta did pressure Yamada to take Rossi (Ezpeleta denies it, Yamada says it happened - two men, two versions of the "truth" - I can't tell without more info which to believe for definite) it does leave a bad taste in even my mouth for Ezpeleta, and therefore Dorna, to act in a non neutral fashion.

But, IMO this is not quite the same as the governing body (made up effectively of the MSMA, the IRTA, the FIM and Dorna) behaving as such. I do agree, despite all this, that some damage has been done to the perceived integrity of the sport, regardless of what actually happened.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 6 2008, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>despite all this, that some damage has been done to the perceived integrity of the sport, regardless of what actually happened.
Fair enough.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 6 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i support rossi for his brilliant riding and focus not his persona
Oh really? Uhm, I think I distinctly remember you going all goo-goo gaga after one of those post race win production celebrations--isn't that part of his "persona"?

Haha Rog oh buddy, no worries, if those “total .....” Michelins pan out for a certain Lorentho, we might get to see another look-at-me orgies between a rider and his ego—in true Rossi fashion.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 6 2008, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but Jumkie has far to many grudges against Rossi, and they shine so clearly through his posts and thats why most of the Rossi fans react. Also he is "on the other side" where others, only in this tread has been "Hitling" the tread, attacking people for being gay, frequently using fan boy and any other insults they can think of. So, all in all it's very hard to agree with anything from anyone from that "camp".
What are you talking about? Have I called you "gay" and meant it in a bad way? If so, I unequivocally apologize, but I doubt it happened maliciously.

As far as you think I have a "grudge against Rossi" you are absolutely wrong. (Actually, if I have a grudge against anybody, it would be Pedrosa and A. Puig.) Can I start just making false accusations as a poison pill too? Ok, here is one, you have a grudge against Rossi too. You see how silly that made you look? "Camp"? Oh and what might be your "camp"? Come on, this coming from the guy who consistently blamed Rossi's tires ever race that he didn't win and found some phantom shredding or melt down of the tire to justify him losing. Please man.

I think the only grudge you got is against your own debating skills. Don't get so frustrated with yourself man. Ooops, sorry ,man I think I'm on my high horse again. Don't take it to heart buddy. Its all good.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 7 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah, now I see our problem. Ok. Perhaps you don't understand what is the job/mission of a governing body. Its kinda like a referee in a match. They are suppose to treat everybody the same, no matter the history of the player or team. So when a player uses his influence to threaten the referee, in this case Dorna, into taking up the cause of an individual player, even if its not to get better equipment, but just to serve his demands over the rest of the players asking the same thing, then yes, its a problem. This type of treatment is material and is not suppose to happen. Now if you don't think that's the job/mission of a governing body, then I can see that everything I've said must sound like gibberish--this is a pivotal point.

I also see where the 'problem' is now: you look at principles, in a kind of abstract way.
Assuming Ezpeleta did something for Rossi which does not give him any unfair advantage (and is even right in my opinion, because i think tyre suppliers should not discriminate their customers), nonetheless you find fault with that because (you think that) Ezpeleta would not do the same for everybody....?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 7 2008, 08:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I also see where the 'problem' is now: you look at principles, in a kind of abstract way.
Assuming Ezpeleta did something for Rossi which does not give him any unfair advantage (and is even right in my opinion, because i think tyre suppliers should not discriminate their customers), nonetheless you find fault with that because (you think that) Ezpeleta would not do the same for everybody....?
2 very good points there. i agree, tyre suppliers should be able to supply any team that asks in the intrests of fairness, and rossi has not been given an advantage at all ,just access to what he thinks is better developed pruduct.

Damn, I want to comment on this topic but it's all been said! Personally, I'm not sure whether JB even made these comments. I'd like to see a video of the interview. Sounds like a media beat up to me.

I'm pretty sure bridgestone weren't "super keen" to work with Vale at all till the threat of a single tyre rule came up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jan 7 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Damn, I want to comment on this topic but it's all been said! Personally, I'm not sure whether JB even made these comments. I'd like to see a video of the interview. Sounds like a media beat up to me.
so you believe it whole hartedly when the media report jb was unhappy about the switch but disbelieve when the media report jb is happy and supports the move. i dont seem to remember you needing the interview on video to make you believe when the media reported jb being unhappy with vale.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 7 2008, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so you believe it whole hartedly when the media report jb was unhappy about the switch but disbelieve when the media report jb is happy and supports the move. i dont seem to remember you needing the interview on video to make you believe when the media reported jb being unhappy with vale.
I saw the video of JB's earlier comments. I haven't seen the video of these comments, hence my skepticism.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jan 7 2008, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I saw the video of JB's earlier comments. I haven't seen the video of these comments, hence my skepticism.
sure you did, have you still got the link ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 7 2008, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sure you did, have you still got the link ?
Sure I did and no I don't have the link as I saw it on Aussie tv. I'm sure you won't believe me but I don't really care. As you say anyway if it comes from MCN then more than likely it's total .........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jan 7 2008, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure I did and no I don't have the link as I saw it on Aussie tv. I'm sure you won't believe me but I don't really care. As you say anyway if it comes from MCN then more than likely it's total .........
got to agree with that

ahhhh YOU guysss... i missed the party.








2 words...who cares...

4 more words... is it March yet?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 7 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>nonetheless you find fault with that because (you think that) Ezpeleta would not do the same for everybody....?
To answer your question, yes, I don't think Ezp would do that for everybody. That's been my point that some how you've missed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 7 2008, 01:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i agree, tyre suppliers should be able to supply any team that asks in the intrests of fairness, and rossi has not been given an advantage at all ,just access to what he thinks is better developed pruduct.
True buddy, however, unfortunately since they maybe are limited resources (as somebody argued) then this would place strain on the supply contracts for others. Perhaps this is why Bridgestone said no more. On top of that, many here love to taut the prototype nature of the sport and were against a control tire, so in the interest of maintaining a balance (or tire war) they also said no to any more riders. I suppose its similar to say, then everybody should be free to use what ever bike they want, then we might have a field of Hondas (or at least in 08, a field of Ducatis.)

I personally think they should have gone to a control tire and take the tire "advantage/disadvantage" perception out of it. But I think maybe this is another topic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 7 2008, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh really? Uhm, I think I distinctly remember you going all goo-goo gaga after one of those post race win production celebrations--isn't that part of his "persona"?

Haha Rog oh buddy, no worries, if those “total .....” Michelins pan out for a certain Lorentho, we might get to see another look-at-me orgies between a rider and his ego—in true Rossi fashion.



What are you talking about? Have I called you "gay" and meant it in a bad way? If so, I unequivocally apologize, but I doubt it happened maliciously.
Relax RJ. Read the post again. I talking about what others have said and done. The only thing I "accuse" you of is your grudge, that you would never admit to anyway. It's just a little bit to important every time Rossi says something. When Hayden effectivly says the same thing, it's past along in silence. And so on. All in all no big deal, so I guess it's when it all adds up with everything from fantics to trolls spewing out all kind of .... and I end up replying the only posts worth replying, often yours, some of that other .... are in my mind and color the posts.
That is the problem right?
I'm automatically in the camp with all the Rossi fans, including trolls and idiots, including those with the onliners: "Rossi is god".
You are automatically in the camp with the Rossi bashers, at least in this tread, becuase even if you mainly blame Dorna, others seems to think that Rossi is the one mainly to blame here.
I find this tread quite amazing as this is racing the way I know it (from the inside), not only in MotoGP but everywhere. The later information regading the actual governing body continue to put this into a category where it belongs: business as usual and nothing to make a fuzz about.
Non the less people seems to get balistic and accuse a lot of people for a lot of things when it's hardly worth an eyebrow's lift. (no, this is not an attempt to play down the importance, just puting the right perspective on it)

2640:argue.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 7 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so you believe it whole hartedly when the media report jb was unhappy about the switch but disbelieve when the media report jb is happy and supports the move. i dont seem to remember you needing the interview on video to make you believe when the media reported jb being unhappy with vale.

I think the reports were fairly accurate, as they where in the latest interview. The problem is that people put to much into those words.
I'm fairly certain JB still think it was the wrong desition in many ways, but his respect for Rossi is to high to second guess him. The latest article focus on the process more than the desition. It's more a reply to all those screaming foul play, not a wholehartedly defence of the actual desition:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>He was aware of what he needed to improve, or believed he knew what he needed to improve his performance, and without that product he didn't think he could achieve it. That's what I call a professional support, not a wholeharted agreement, and the same can be said about his earlier statements except that was a professional disagreement. But then again, who is he to order Rossi what rubber to ride on, all he can do is to give advice and my guess is that he ultimatly support Rossi because he trust him enough to make the right desition despite his own reservations. Rossi had the best oportunity of anyone to study the B.stone/ducati/stoner combo out there, he also mangaed to be the fastest on several q-session so he knew the bike could hold up with the tires if only the tires give him enough grip and durability.

B.stone didn't find room for a whole team as they've stated before and Rossi forced through the splitting of the team. So Rossi did a huge gamble this time and the fall is long if he fail (ultimate failure would be to beaten by his halfway separated teammate Lornezo) Something like that would take away most of if not all the influence he demonstrated last fall.
The only logical reason for this is that he truly belives that without those tires he is without a chance for the title. That is what JB can't second guess and that is what made Rossi make that drastic desition and to play it all the way.