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Burgess defends Rossi's tyre move

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 9 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He should just pay his taxes, restrain from desiring the rubber of other men...
What the ....? Dude, that sounded SOOOOOOOOO GAY!!! (Sorry Babel, I couldn't resist this one). hahaha
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Please somebody, pin this up on the all time greatest quotes:

Rossi should "refrain from desiring the rubber of other men."
J4rn0 circa 2008

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Lord have mercy, this is the best thread on this site all ....... year!!! Please keep the laughs cumming!!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 10 2008, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I look forward to the duels we are going to see in 2008, between these two 'animals', - mainly thanks to the fact that they'll be on the same rubber
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The only drawback to this sentiment ( which I happen to share by the way ) is that we're all assuming that Bridgestone will have the upper hand again in 2008! It is possible, however unlikely, that Michelin might pull their collective fingers out of their ..... & make a good showing of it...

In which case we might just get to see the titanic battle between Stoner & Rossi played out for 4th & 5th every race!
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I doubt it but then again you never know in this sport!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 10 2008, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What the ....? Dude, that sounded SOOOOOOOOO GAY!!! (Sorry Babel, I couldn't resist this one). hahaha
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Please somebody, pin this up on the all time greatest quotes:

Rossi should "refrain from desiring the rubber of other men."
J4rn0 circa 2008

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Lord have mercy, this is the best thread on this site all ....... year!!! Please keep the laughs cumming!!!

Can't argue with you there Jumkie! Worth it's weight in gold!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 9 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So we are calling the shots?

Humm, the fanbase stoped their proposal, how can they be wearing yellow glases?
Another one: I assume you put me well inside the group of people wearing yellow glases, how come I am against the control tire?

I sense an increasing paranoia and whole bunch of new conspiracy theories coming in the near future.
Can't wait to see the next one
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Yes, we are ultimately in control because DORNA has made it known they only care about money and they are willing to disobey the bylaws to engineer the sport we want. How do you think Rossi walked off with the Stones after the second tire meeting? The fans said he could and Ezy agreed! The only thing stopping fanboyism is the FIM procedural rules---they are being ignored. Now you understand why these debates run long and get relatively heated.

The poll motogp.com put up resulted in a 50/50 schism. I know this maybe hard to believe for someone who walks around wearing yellow spectacles, but the control tire issue is far bigger than "should Rossi get Bridgestones". Personally, I am for a control tire. I didn't vote for a control tire because I want Rossi to win every year, I want to find out which riders are the most talented.

I don't hate Rossi I hate the game. I don't think Rossi should be thrown out or punished, I think DORNA should be censured by the FIM (yeah right). However, if Rossi's wants to act like a fool, I'll treat him that way.

I'll always marvel at Rossi's riding ability but I can't appreciate his achievements anymore because it's obvious he doesn't have the wherewithal to see troubled times through to the end. He is not like the champions of old who bled all over the track to win. Perhaps his talent puts him above all of that, but it certainly doesn't put him above working through his own problems. I'll always admire his riding ability, but I can't really enjoy his achievements anymore. He's not what he was made out to be.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 9 2008, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What the ....? Dude, that sounded SOOOOOOOOO GAY!!! (Sorry Babel, I couldn't resist this one). hahaha
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Please somebody, pin this up on the all time greatest quotes:

Rossi should "refrain from desiring the rubber of other men."
J4rn0 circa 2008

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Lord have mercy, this is the best thread on this site all ....... year!!! Please keep the laughs cumming!!!

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C'mon Jumkie, they aren't speaking in their native tongue so cut em some slack
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 9 2008, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How convineinet to say Dorna are calling the shots. They have been the more active part during the last halv of 2007 and for all I know are in general the one comming up fith most suggestions but they are not running the game. There is the veto from the manufacturers and I find it strange you say FIM are in their pocket when Noyes him self said FIM woud vote against the single tire proposal.

That said. Sporting organizations are notoriously undemocratic. FIFA, FIA, AMA, Olympics..... They all have problems and scandals so I understand that part, I just thought you went a bit far hare and there.
Most of these organisations end up as autocracies which may not be a bad thing in itself and perhaps even a necessity; it is proverbial that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Most people were aware of what the control structure of motogp is theoretically; we certainly canvassed it earlier in the 2007 season prior to the tyre controversy. However despite my stance on the tyre issue I do agree that ezpeleta in practice is pretty much in control of things including the technical regulations. Ezpeleta himself seems to think he is in charge if he has been correctly quoted during the recent control ecu discussion. I think F1 has had a similar structure in place for a much longer time, but there seems little doubt that basically what bernie says goes. The manufacturers of course do have the ultimate power both theoretically and in reality, as without them there is no show but it is pretty easy for an astute politician to set them against each other. It is also probably not a good idea for them to be totally in control as this would likely lead to rapid progress to an entirely engineering based formula.

I think stuff-ups are far more common than conspiracies in most human endeavours, and this is what I would criticise dorna for. I think the 2007 rule changes were well intentioned, and probably genuinely meant to improve safety, promote closer racing etc., but they were stupid. There is certainly no way that they can be interpreted as being intended to help valentino rossi. The problem as others have said is that I understand ezpeleta to be basically an accountant, and as mylexicon says further rule changes instigated by him to fix problems caused by previous rule changes would seem unlikely to have a high chance of being successful.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 9 2008, 11:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok ok, don't get dizzy Skid, I agree with you 100%
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Rossi is the godfather of MotoGP and the source of all evils. He should just pay his taxes, restrain from desiring the rubber of other men, admit he is an utter failure and retire...
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Bridgestone are pure and pious tyre suppliers, completely devoted to the noble ideal of technological advancement, unjustly coerced to sell their pure rubber to the mafia, whereas they would prefer to sell it to honest citizens only... But that horrible Rossi had to be appeased, or else...!
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MotoGP is the purest prototype racing formula, which would be completely destroyed by a single tyre rule. Forget that this same rule has not destroyed F1, - but of course F1 is just a stock car series
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And, of course, 'every' guy on the grid is a born racer... Some were born to race definitely faster than others though
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If I say Rossi is an animal born to race, well, I don't see any rhetoric in it, leave alone fanaticism. It is just a simple remark about his character as a rider (as he really enjoys the close fights on the track).

By the way, if you read my posts, you know that I have the highest appreciation for Stoner also. I look forward to the duels we are going to see in 2008, between these two 'animals', - mainly thanks to the fact that they'll be on the same rubber
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touche brother!
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I'm happy to see Rossi on Bridgies.......no excuses for either Stoner or Rossi in 2008 (except the chassis, the engine, the crew, the wind, the haircut, the eruption of Mt Vesuvius etc).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 10 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, we are ultimately in control because DORNA has made it known they only care about money and they are willing to disobey the bylaws to engineer the sport we want. How do you think Rossi walked off with the Stones after the second tire meeting? The fans said he could and Ezy agreed! The only thing stopping fanboyism is the FIM procedural rules---they are being ignored. Now you understand why these debates run long and get relatively heated.

The poll motogp.com put up resulted in a 50/50 schism. I know this maybe hard to believe for someone who walks around wearing yellow spectacles, but the control tire issue is far bigger than "should Rossi get Bridgestones". Personally, I am for a control tire. I didn't vote for a control tire because I want Rossi to win every year, I want to find out which riders are the most talented.

I don't hate Rossi I hate the game. I don't think Rossi should be thrown out or punished, I think DORNA should be censured by the FIM (yeah right). However, if Rossi's wants to act like a fool, I'll treat him that way.

I'll always marvel at Rossi's riding ability but I can't appreciate his achievements anymore because it's obvious he doesn't have the wherewithal to see troubled times through to the end. He is not like the champions of old who bled all over the track to win. Perhaps his talent puts him above all of that, but it certainly doesn't put him above working through his own problems. I'll always admire his riding ability, but I can't really enjoy his achievements anymore. He's not what he was made out to be.That's the most profound post in this whole thread lexicon, especially the very first sentence. It's also a sound observation about the motogp.com poll. I heard one of the guys a motogpod podcast make the very same point, and it's a damn good one, how unprofessional it was for Ezy to almost 'drip feed' the public his intentions, as if to guage our reactions before making any decisions, the tyre debacle being the perfect example. Unprofessional isn't perhaps how I would describe it but it is a sign of the times. Ezy announces to the world that Dorna are considering moving to a control tyre, and all over the world the sporting press, bloggers and forums like this go into overdrive. It just proved in this case that Dorna call the shots, as long as they're sure the average yellow-shirt wearing, camel-smoking, wudy-munching, tv watching fan on the street thinks it's ok. Like it or not, that's the way it is I suppose.
I don't hate Rossi either, but he's getting harder and harder to like isn't he. It'll be hard to take anything he says now completely at face value, but I do believe him when he says he's staying for another five years. Why would he walk out on such a good thing? I hope he gets stuffed this year too, not for one minute because it's him personally, I've never met the guy, it's because I'm inherently anti-establishment and he's quite obviously in bed with the establishmment.
I'm not and never was for a control tyre, In my view it's a knee-jerk reaction to a short term blip. 2008 wil prove me wrong or right, if Bridgestone make fools out of Michelin again this year then I'd say a control tyre is the way forward but I do not believe it fair to exclude any tyre company from a series they all want to participate in because the traditional dominant maker has a duff season or the traditional dominant rider is unable to win, that would be foolish and short sighted.
I love that last paragraph too.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 10 2008, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What the ....? Dude, that sounded SOOOOOOOOO GAY!!! (Sorry Babel, I couldn't resist this one). hahaha
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Please somebody, pin this up on the all time greatest quotes:

Rossi should "refrain from desiring the rubber of other men."
J4rn0 circa 2008

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Lord have mercy, this is the best thread on this site all ....... year!!! Please keep the laughs cumming!!!

Welcome...
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I did mean irony of course, but wasn't aware of a gay connotation with the word 'rubber' - I was thinking of the ten commandments
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It is not the first time I read gay jokes about Rossi in the anglophone forums, but I must say that in Italy he has never been considered gay - funny, isn't it. I think it is the presence of Uccio near him at the tracks, instead of some gorgeous girlfriend. But Rossi has been too unstable in his relations with womens so far, I suppose.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Jan 10 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>......................
I'm not and never was for a control tyre, In my view it's a knee-jerk reaction to a short term blip. 2008 wil prove me wrong or right, if Bridgestone make fools out of Michelin again this year then I'd say a control tyre is the way forward but I do not believe it fair to exclude any tyre company from a series they all want to participate in because the traditional dominant maker has a duff season or the traditional dominant rider is unable to win, that would be foolish and short sighted.
I love that last paragraph too.

I do not think the reasons for a control tyre are those you mention.

If only tyre companies would accept orders equally from any team or manufacturer, you would never need to 'control' the tyres. It would be self-controlled by market laws.

Michelin have the best products? They sell and get good publicity, and Bridgestone have to give their tyres away for free to some satellite team just to stay in the game and keep developing. Bridgestone the next year become the best product? The situation is reversed, most teams buy Bridgestone and Michelin have to invest and try to catch up.

But if the market is not free, then dangerous situations (preferential treatments) easily develop that are very threatening to the sport of racing, given the importance of tyres in determining the winners. If a free amrket is not possible, then a control tyre is the only solution.

Rossi's story is only incidental in this (much wider) issue.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 10 2008, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Welcome...
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I did mean irony of course, but wasn't aware of a gay connotation with the word 'rubber' - I was thinking of the ten commandments
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It is not the first time I read gay jokes about Rossi in the anglophone forums, but I must say that in Italy he has never been considered gay - funny, isn't it. I think it is the presence of Uccio near him at the tracks, instead of some gorgeous girlfriend. But Rossi has been too unstable in his relations with womens so far, I suppose.
No, no, nah man, I'm NOT implying Rossi is gay, its just the way you said that statement was funny. Actually it was more the words "desire" and "other men". Hahaha. I've seen some of Rossi's girl companions, and they are smoking hot! Even if he were gay, that wouldn't mean .... to me.

Carry on, don't let me distract you from trying to make your weak case for Rossi and his preferential treatment.
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(I'm joking, light banter, not serious, sort of).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 10 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...........
Carry on, don't let me distract you from trying to make your weak case for Rossi and his preferential treatment.
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(I'm joking, light banter, not serious, sort of).

I'm not trying to make a case for Rossi at all, - the funny thing is that whatever one says about tyres is immediately sucked (...
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) into this Rossi debate and evaluated only for its Rossi-related implications.

But my 'case' is actually against the tyre suppliers. We were all sick of Michelin's manipulations and little games, and then Bridgestone begin similar games too, as soon as they become competitive... What a disappointment
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I see Bridgestone's refusal to supply Honda and Yamaha as the result of business contracts binding them to other manufacturers, and such a thing - from the point of view of sport - is not very nice.

In a message above yours I was suggesting that if there was a free market situation with tyres in MotoGP, there would be no problem. I insist that Rossi's case is just a secondary event, not the main issue. But it is easier to make headlines that way evidently...
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (muzzy57 @ Jan 10 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The only drawback to this sentiment ( which I happen to share by the way ) is that we're all assuming that Bridgestone will have the upper hand again in 2008! It is possible, however unlikely, that Michelin might pull their collective fingers out of their ..... & make a good showing of it...
In which case we might just get to see the titanic battle between Stoner & Rossi played out for 4th & 5th every race!
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I doubt it but then again you never know in this sport!
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..............

Hmmm, the only possibility for Michelin to win in 2008 is if they develop the perfect Pedro-tyre for a perfect Pedro-Honda. The last races of 2007 showed a strong push in that direction. After those few races Pedrosa gave up his request for Bridgestones, reassured that Michelin will work for him only in 2008!

If that happens, well, the battles between Stoner and Rossi (and perhaps Hayden) for 2nd and 3rd place place are very likely to overshadow Pedrosa's easy wins, I think...
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 11 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm, the only possibility for Michelin to win in 2008 is if they develop the perfect Pedro-tyre for a perfect Pedro-Honda.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 11 2008, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm, the only possibility for Michelin to win in 2008 is if they develop the perfect Pedro-tyre for a perfect Pedro-Honda. The last races of 2007 showed a strong push in that direction. After those few races Pedrosa gave up his request for Bridgestones, reassured that Michelin will work for him only in 2008!

If that happens, well, the battles between Stoner and Rossi (and perhaps Hayden) for 2nd and 3rd place place are very likely to overshadow Pedrosa's easy wins, I think...
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Actually, I think Rossi leaving will give Hayden what he wants too. I think they will let Pedro develop a tire and see if Lorenzo and RDP can use it (is LCR staying Michelin?), since they ride 250 style. Then they will probably let Hayden and Edwards develop another style of tire and hope that Toseland can get comfortable on it.

Rossi probably had his own tire and they were also developing what HRC wanted. I wouldn't be surprised if Michelin take some of Rossi's budget and try to tweak the current design a few different directions to get riders comfortable and score some podiums.

I really think the Repsol will be good enough to score podiums even if the tires aren't great. If Melandri doesn't improve to a regular podium contender and Rossi has more woes next season. There will be plenty of open podium spots for the Repsols, Hopper, and Verme.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 12 2008, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, I think Rossi leaving will give Hayden what he wants too. I think they will let Pedro develop a tire and see if Lorenzo and RDP can use it (is LCR staying Michelin?), since they ride 250 style. Then they will probably let Hayden and Edwards develop another style of tire and hope that Toseland can get comfortable on it.

Rossi probably had his own tire and they were also developing what HRC wanted. I wouldn't be surprised if Michelin take some of Rossi's budget and try to tweak the current design a few different directions to get riders comfortable and score some podiums.

I really think the Repsol will be good enough to score podiums even if the tires aren't great. If Melandri doesn't improve to a regular podium contender and Rossi has more woes next season. There will be plenty of open podium spots for the Repsols, Hopper, and Verme.


Interesting.
In my view Michelin began privileging Honda and Pedro in 2006, and coincidentally Rossi began breaking tyres and having trouble making them last till the end of the race... These problems became macroscopic in 2007. Hayden's win in 2006 was probably a surprise to all and discounted as a freak reasult, but he should be credited for winning against all kinds of odds, including his teammate throwing him out of a key race... Honda and Michelin did not even consider working more for him though! It is unlikely they'll do that now.

In the first half of 2007 the Pedro-tyres were already a reality, but could not shine because of the problems Honda had. As soon as Honda recovered we could see Pedro going faster on his custom Michelin than any other Honda rider... I do not think this scene will change much in 2008, and have some doubts Michelin can develop more than two lines of competitive tyres. Since nobody else can use Pedro's tyres, they'll develop the existing ultra-soft tyre for him and then a general tyre for all other Michelin riders.

This scenario could not suit Rossi at all. Rossi uses very hard tyres, just like Stoner. So one can understand why he moved away from Michelin, now specializing in soft tyres, and wanted Bridgestones.
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Of course this is all speculation! We'll have to wait and see.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 10 2008, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do not think the reasons for a control tyre are those you mention.

If only tyre companies would accept orders equally from any team or manufacturer, you would never need to 'control' the tyres. It would be self-controlled by market laws.

Michelin have the best products? They sell and get good publicity, and Bridgestone have to give their tyres away for free to some satellite team just to stay in the game and keep developing. Bridgestone the next year become the best product? The situation is reversed, most teams buy Bridgestone and Michelin have to invest and try to catch up.

But if the market is not free, then dangerous situations (preferential treatments) easily develop that are very threatening to the sport of racing, given the importance of tyres in determining the winners. If a free amrket is not possible, then a control tyre is the only solution.

Rossi's story is only incidental in this (much wider) issue.It's a good pont you make j4rno. It would be great if teams going shopping for tyres was as straightforward an excercise as it is for you and me. But it is a long time since it has been this way, every tyre company wants that photo of a world champ on their rubber for magazine ads, in order to do that they will develop a tyre for a specific rider that has the best chance of taking a championship, most likely at the expense of every other rider using their product, which is obviously a grossly unfair and fundamentally flawed situation in terms of equitable competition. So you got me thinking, you may have actually changed my mind, I hadn't looked at it from that perspective in any depth. I'm all for competition between the tyre companies and have always considered it as a healthy part of racing but I suppose when the commercial spin-off is the sole driving force, as no doubt it is now, it throws my theories into question. You may have changed my mind J4rno.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skid @ Jan 12 2008, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's a good pont you make j4rno. It would be great if teams going shopping for tyres was as straightforward an excercise as it is for you and me. But it is a long time since it has been this way, every tyre company wants that photo of a world champ on their rubber for magazine ads, in order to do that they will develop a tyre for a specific rider that has the best chance of taking a championship, most likely at the expense of every other rider using their product, which is obviously a grossly unfair and fundamentally flawed situation in terms of equitable competition. So you got me thinking, you may have actually changed my mind, I hadn't looked at it from that perspective in any depth. I'm all for competition between the tyre companies and have always considered it as a healthy part of racing but I suppose when the commercial spin-off is the sole driving force, as no doubt it is now, it throws my theories into question. You may have changed my mind J4rno.
I have previously posted this on the spec ECU thread, but don't seem to be able to link to it. Sorry to repeat post.

My answer to the tyre problem is to have Michelin, Bridgestone, Dunlop and even Pirelli bring a tyre truck to each race. All teams could then buy each tyre for maybe $1 and try it. If it was not to their liking then they'd go back to the trucks and buy some more. This would be REAL competition between manufacturers. Sure, each would want to produce a tyre that the best rider of the time could win on and so they'd have a real tyre war on their hands. Be it Stoner, Rossi or Pedrosa; Ducati, Yamaha or Honda, they'd be producing the best tyres they could. And we, the road rider, would seriously benefit....

Maybe, given the view that the fans can influence Dorna, we should have a poll on this?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 12 2008, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have previously posted this on the spec ECU thread, but don't seem to be able to link to it. Sorry to repeat post.

My answer to the tyre problem is to have Michelin, Bridgestone, Dunlop and even Pirelli bring a tyre truck to each race. All teams could then buy each tyre for maybe $1 and try it. If it was not to their liking then they'd go back to the trucks and buy some more. This would be REAL competition between manufacturers. Sure, each would want to produce a tyre that the best rider of the time could win on and so they'd have a real tyre war on their hands. Be it Stoner, Rossi or Pedrosa; Ducati, Yamaha or Honda, they'd be producing the best tyres they could. And we, the road rider, would seriously benefit....

Maybe, given the view that the fans can influence Dorna, we should have a poll on this?I saw that post yamaka, thats just the way I and most of the other guys bought tyres when I raced, except I wish all the tyres were only a dollar
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Don't take it personal but I think it's idealistic, albeit the ones who would undoubtedly benefit greatly from such a situation would be those of us mortals who pay for tyres, ie racers and street riders. It's kind of like I said in a previous post somewhere, it's sport vs commerce. The question is, how much are tyre companies really interested in the racing, in the sport? How interested are Michelin in anyone other than Pedrosa? How do we get rid of the tyre pecking order? Your solution works in theory but there is no model for it in world championship motor racing. Could it work? Would tyre companies buy it? Is it more atractive to teams than a control tyre? I don't think it is, if only because there's no money in it for Dorna.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 12 2008, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe, given the view that the fans can influence Dorna, we should have a poll on this?
Yes
 

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