Brno 2016

lil red rocket pilot said:

Oh dear, another one that does not get our humor:giggle:
bless ya.

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What do you mean 'does not get our humour'? [not humor] i'm English you knobend.

Arrabbiata1 said:

- And this years nomination for the 'longest sentence in a post' award goes to...

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So what's my prize?.....

wrong post

Has Nick Harris learnt how to pronounce Brno yet?

pyeman said:

So what's my prize?.....

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An evening n the company of Cal Crutchlow.

AntG said:

Has Nick Harris learnt how to stay silent yet?

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FTFY

michaelm said:

However, as Birdman said, knowing how to ride at just below the level at which delamination will occur is a rather cleverer trick, particularly given the delamination was an unprecedented phenomenon.

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I tend to agree with you both. Interestingly, the riders on the soft - soft combination unanimously do not seem to think so and that the failures experienced were what you would expect in the conditions. Perhaps JPS is right and they are simply under a gagging order. However Lorenzo was critical of the consistency and to me the crux of this debate is that Rossi arrived in Parc Ferme with a completely intact extra-soft wet.

On the other hand I do sympathise with Viddu's argument that given that the extra - soft compound was not designed for the drying track. In response to that, to echo Dovi, Michelin should be criticised for their limited range in specifications.

That as you say, riders were conscious of managing their tyres the erratic nature of the sudden failures were concerning in their inconsistency although not necessarily unprecedented.

moto vudu said:

I don't see tire marbles as the same thing as chunking. I will elaborate in a little bit.

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Hmmm...

michaelm said:

Absolutely you should stay above the fray Arrabb where tawdry conspiracy theories are concerned, your prose is too fine to be wasted on such.

I found myelf unable to do so. I am more emotionally involved as a fan than you are, in the moment anyway, and being perhaps overly wedded to Aristotlean logic could not countenance posts complaining about conspiracy theories in relation to Rossi after Rossi's attempt to blacken the reputation of 2 other riders also arguably among the top riders of all time, certainly top 10 imo even in Jorge's case, with the the most excessive conspiracy theory in the history of the sport. Rossi effectively ousting Jorge from Yamaha has hardened my attitude.

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I truly, madly love your posts and your passion. But when you use words like tawdry and expressions like wedded-to, and blacken the reputation in the context of a discussion about motorcycle racing, my mind wanders off, because I think I've been tricked into re-reading Madam Bovary, and I find myself wondering what became of my velvet smoking jacket, my decanter of sherry and my meershaum pipe

Mick D said:

Did you send that from the corner after John left?

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Geez Mick, I know it's been a mixed bag year for Rossi so far, but instead of letting it get you down, maybe you should show you've got something useful to say. Don't be like the rest of the boppers who only post when they think Rossi is in the mix.

moto vudu said:

When did I say delamination was normal? Quote my post. Thanks.

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I would but it makes it creates a sensation rather like what I imagine it would be like to put on a used condom.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I tend to agree with you both. Interestingly, the riders on the soft - soft combination unanimously do not seem to think so and that the failures experienced were what you would expect in the conditions. Perhaps JPS is right and they are simply under a gagging order. However Lorenzo was critical of the consistency and to me the crux of this debate is that Rossi arrived in Parc Ferme with a completely intact extra-soft wet.

On the other hand I do sympathise with Viddu's argument that given that the extra - soft compound was not designed for the drying track. In response to that, to echo Dovi, Michelin should be criticised for their limited range in specifications.

That as you say, riders were conscious of managing their tyres the erratic nature of the sudden failures were concerning in their inconsistency although not necessarily unprecedented.

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The reason I tend to think there's a bit of a gag order is because when Pirelli tires were delaminating at an unprecedented pace in F1, the drivers were going off about the poor quality of the tires. That all ended when Bernie read them the riot act at a meeting. You got some criticisms here and there, but nothing like what was happening prior to that meeting. I don't think it was missed by Carmelo and whomever else. It might be a you can criticize...but don't go too far deal.

moto vudu said:

The science behind a tire overheating and failing is the same for a car, truck, or racing tire.

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False equivalency. You think the sophistication of the science behind truck tires is in the same league as that for GP tires?

moto vudu said:

The article explaining how heat affects a tire isn't specific to trucks. It only mentions truck tires when talking about a truck tire cannot be retreaded if it suffer too much heat damage. Neither you or JPS has refuted the information, you're only attempting to attack the source (which is usually what happens when someone can't refute).


Increased tire temperatures are the principal cause of rubber degradation and can lead to fatigue cracking, belt separation, tread block tearing and chunking. It can affect a tire's air permeability, which can cause underinflation. At the same time, it's been discovered that air permeating into a tire's rubber compound can accelerate oxidative degradation.

Explain how a racing tire is exempt from that.

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Racing tires aren't used for tens of thousands of miles. They don't sit around degrading in dealer showrooms for years at time. They come to the track after being carefully stored in a controlled atmosphere and are used once and discarded.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I tend to agree with you both. Interestingly, the riders on the soft - soft combination unanimously do not seem to think so and that the failures experienced were what you would expect in the conditions. Perhaps JPS is right and they are simply under a gagging order. However Lorenzo was critical of the consistency and to me the crux of this debate is that Rossi arrived in Parc Ferme with a completely intact extra-soft wet.

On the other hand I do sympathise with Viddu's argument that given that the extra - soft compound was not designed for the drying track. In response to that, to echo Dovi, Michelin should be criticised for their limited range in specifications.

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Not sure of a gag order but would not be surprised were there to be one, and in some regards understandably so (queue the WTF posts to follow) given past history. But even if there was a gag order I could not see that stopping Redding, Cal and a few others so I doubt that such a thing exists, although there is always the 'bringing the sport into disrepute' charge that can be rolled out from time to time.

I do wonder if there are some semantics at play as well between MV and others and whether we may all be closer than we think in some aspects.

I have seen wet tyres finish races in the condition of Ianonne's tyre and thuis in some way I can see that as standard FULL race tyre wear from a wet tyre made to perform on a dry track. But again, that is a full dry track and so that is an abnormal circumstance.

What is rarer is the chunking of Dovi and more curiously for me Lorenzo as the part of the tyre that was lost in JL's case clearly to my untrained eyes shows a fault in construction (not readily identifiable to Michelin either - how can you tell without the test of riding?).

From my personal view I look at it along the lines that as long as Michelin learn from this then we have a positive as no rider was hurt phsyically as the result and (as I said elsewhere) this is their first year and so mistakes will be made. The critical part is that the mistake is made once only as continual mistakes oft he same type will indicate a lack of focus

I am having a very hard time telling what is real and what is brittish comedy anymore.

Ya'll are a bunch of fatherless .... smoking ... mongers.


Am I doing it right?

Little Walter said:

I truly, madly love your posts and your passion. But when you use words like tawdry and expressions like wedded-to, and blacken the reputation in the context of a discussion about motorcycle racing, my mind wanders off, because I think I've been tricked into re-reading Madam Bovary, and I find myself wondering what became of my velvet smoking jacket, my decanter of sherry and my meershaum pipe

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I eschew meerschaum pipes.

Little Walter said:

I think I've been tricked into re-reading Madam Bovary, and I find myself wondering what became of my velvet smoking jacket, my decanter of sherry and my meershaum pipe

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How delightfully and quintessentially British.

...oh wait.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I tend to agree with you both. Interestingly, the riders on the soft - soft combination unanimously do not seem to think so and that the failures experienced were what you would expect in the conditions. Perhaps JPS is right and they are simply under a gagging order. However Lorenzo was critical of the consistency and to me the crux of this debate is that Rossi arrived in Parc Ferme with a completely intact extra-soft wet.

On the other hand I do sympathise with Viddu's argument that given that the extra - soft compound was not designed for the drying track. In response to that, to echo Dovi, Michelin should be criticised for their limited range in specifications.

That as you say, riders were conscious of managing their tyres the erratic nature of the sudden failures were concerning in their inconsistency although not necessarily unprecedented.

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If I am to resile from conspiracy theories, I take Dovi at his word, as a perennial factory GP rider and the rider most affected by the tyre problem. However, if Michelin anticipated the problem then they were negligent in their advice as has been argued.

I actually have no problem with the notion that Valentino Rossi can preserve tyres better than other riders including Jorge Lorenzo, by skill and/or riding style or whatever. He is justly famed rather than fabled for that ability. Also as a Stoner and now Lorenzo fan, I have watched both riders dominate on some tyres and struggle on others. Stoner in his pomp had problems making the soft option tyre last, or even work for him in the first place.

My objection is to the "soft wet" Michelin delaminating suddenly having shown little or no previous signs of wear, which is not an acceptable manner for any race tyre to fail imo.