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Brno 2016

#22 said:
Interesting, maybe you should have been the Lawyer for Firestone and Ford when the NHTSA sued them for deaths caused by tyre failures on the first generation Ford Explorers. It was discovered the failures were caused b running lower pressures and the tyres delaminating. But by your defence argument of "If the tyre fails causing a crash it's the owners fault for using the wrong gotdamn pressure!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy

Yeah, see how far you'd have got with that argument.




Do you have photographic evidence t support that argument?
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Those were defective tires, not good tires that were simply under-inflated.

What is not in dispute is that some Firestone 15-in. Wilderness AT tires produced at its plant in Decatur, Ill., had defects that are implicated in tread separations and rollover accidents (338 claims out of 1.8 million tires made). Last week's $3 billion recall by Ford covered 15-in., 16-in. and 17-in. Wilderness tires produced at all Firestone factories. Many of the accidents occurred in hot regions, such as Florida and Texas and the Middle East. And no one denies that SUVs roll over more frequently than traditional autos. One reason: until recently most SUVs were built on pickup-truck bodies, which ride higher off the ground, raising the center of gravity.
Click to expand...
Inside the Ford/Firestone Fight - TIME
 
JPSLotus said:
Oh let me throw this back in your face.

How do you know the tire temperatures were increased on the failed tires?

Do you have access to the tire data from Yamaha, Ducati, and Suzuki?
Click to expand...

Increased tire temperatures is the primary cause for such a failure.

povol said:
For one thing, the science to build race tires rated at 240 mph that last 70 miles is quite different than the science used to make a tire designed to go 2-300 thousand miles with a 90 mph speed rating. So no, the science is not even close to being the same.
Click to expand...

We're talking about the impact of excessive heat on a tire, not what's required to increase the speed rating of a tire. Exceeding the heat threshold of a tire rated for 240 mph or 90 mph can have similar effects.
 
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Interesting to note that the official line from Goubet echoes Vudu's main point that the soft tyre available is designed for full wet conditions. Obviously, he would say that. But it's worth noting that Dovi - who exited the race prematurely in my opinion - has no qualms about Michelin's statement because you would expect that to happen to the tyre given the lack of water. His grievance however lies with the allocation.

There was nothing in between the extra soft wet compound deployed at Sachsenring and the hard option - extremes which make tyre choice very difficult given the range of variables which are omitted. His annoyance at Michelin concerns the lack of specifications to choose from in the rain which is highly dangerous. In fact, he doesn't believe they have the situation under control. Because the soft compound provided was so extreme, although he was riding at 70 - 80% he still lost a large piece of the tyre which as he says is highly dangerous.

So Dovi's insistence is that although there was not enough water on the track surface to safely use the tyre, Michelin were negligent in limiting their provision of soft wets to the extra- soft compound.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
Interesting to note that the official line from Goubet echoes Vudu's main point that the soft tyre available is designed for full wet conditions. Obviously, he would say that. But it's worth noting that Dovi - who exited the race prematurely in my opinion - has no qualms about Michelin's statement because you would expect that to happen to the tyre given the lack of water. His grievance however lies with the allocation.

There was nothing in between the extra soft wet compound deployed at Sachsenring and the hard option - extremes which make tyre choice very difficult given the range of variables which are omitted. His annoyance at Michelin concerns the lack of specifications to choose from in the rain which is highly dangerous. In fact, he doesn't believe they have the situation under control. Because the soft compound provided was so extreme, although he was riding at 70 - 80% he still lost a large piece of the tyre which as he says is highly dangerous.

So Dovi's insistence is that although there was not enough water on the track surface to safely use the tyre, Michelin were negligent in limiting their provision of soft wets to the extra- soft compound.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I don't understand why Dovi feels Michelin needed another wet to slot between the soft & the hard, when Cal proved the hard was perfect. Dovi doesn't feel if he had the hard tires he would have been able to fight for the win?
 
moto vudu said:
Interesting. I don't understand why Dovi feels Michelin needed another wet to slot between the soft & the hard, when Cal proved the hard was perfect. Dovi doesn't feel if he had the hard tires he would have been able to fight for the win?
Click to expand...

Possibly not - and we know that Dovi excels in these conditions. Where I do think it comes down to preference - and a range of tyres would address that - his main objection was one of safety in respect of the extra-soft wet which you are currently forced to run if you are averse to the hard tyre - or indeed, as in the case of Sunday, anticipate a white flag race.

Like I said, I'm convinced that it would have been very difficult for the Yamaha riders to have competitively run a hard front on Sunday due to the nature of the M1. But that's the stuff of countless other posts, pure conjecture on my part and an entirely separate thread.
 
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Arrabbiata1 said:
Interesting to note that the official line from Goubet echoes Vudu's main point that the soft tyre available is designed for full wet conditions. Obviously, he would say that. But it's worth noting that Dovi - who exited the race prematurely in my opinion - has no qualms about Michelin's statement because you would expect that to happen to the tyre given the lack of water. His grievance however lies with the allocation.

There was nothing in between the extra soft wet compound deployed at Sachsenring and the hard option - extremes which make tyre choice very difficult given the range of variables which are omitted. His annoyance at Michelin concerns the lack of specifications to choose from in the rain which is highly dangerous. In fact, he doesn't believe they have the situation under control. Because the soft compound provided was so extreme, although he was riding at 70 - 80% he still lost a large piece of the tyre which as he says is highly dangerous.

So Dovi's insistence is that although there was not enough water on the track surface to safely use the tyre, Michelin were negligent in limiting their provision of soft wets to the extra- soft compound.
Click to expand...

But would Dovi admit to having qualms about what Michelin said? If anything, riders really have been quiet for the most part on the subject of the Michelin tires this year. It's become commonplace to blame the riders or the teams for anything that goes wrong with the tires. After all, remember when Valentino was saying it was Ducati's fault they were eating tires because of too much power? I think there's a gag order on criticism from Dorna.

Sure Goubert said what he did, but if you'll notice the teams have been absolutely mum on the entire subject of the tires delaminating. But if the tires were the wrong one's to be used as Goubert has said, my contention still stands that Michelin should have demanded a mandatory pit stop at half distance. They did no such thing. They let everyone run with it.
 
JPSLotus said:
But would Dovi admit to having qualms about what Michelin said? If anything, riders really have been quiet for the most part on the subject of the Michelin tires this year. It's become commonplace to blame the riders or the teams for anything that goes wrong with the tires. After all, remember when Valentino was saying it was Ducati's fault they were eating tires because of too much power? I think there's a gag order on criticism from Dorna.
Click to expand...

I dunno, riders have been very vocal about Michelin's failures this season and Dovi is certainly highlighting their shortcomings in provision. Scott also said that he thought that the wear was normal but ambiguously added that the uncommon degradation of the front cost him the race - which I think is tantamount to the same sentiments that Dovi expressed, a less extreme compound would not have fallen off a cliff so suddenly. Or, to reiterate Dovi's point, they should have provided a reasonable range of different specifications or a conventional soft as opposed to what should have been a bespoke one off solely for use at Sachsenring.

JPSLotus said:
Sure Goubert said what he did, but if you'll notice the teams have been absolutely mum on the entire subject of the tires delaminating. .
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You see, this is why I miss Stoner. He used to tear strips off the Bridgestone bosses like Michelin extra softs at Brno.

JPSLotus said:
But if the tires were the wrong one's to be used as Goubert has said, my contention still stands that Michelin should have demanded a mandatory pit stop at half distance. They did no such thing. They let everyone run with it.
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Absolutely agree.
 
Daniboy said:
Perhaps David it would be a good time, if you have the time and resources to do an article, or get someone to do an article, on how race tyres are made.
Many years ago, I used to work for a Japanese race tyre company and back then the carcass was made first. Carcasses are important for a few reasons, first and most important is the carcass supports the tread which mostly is a slick tread but in this case is a wet patterned tread.
The carcass determines the tread shape, footprint size and controls distortion (, in conjunction with air pressure) and gives the rider feel. The other very important aspect which is either not openly revealed or understood is the carcass controls or supports heat lose or retention through the side walls and into the wheel. The compound works in conjunction with the carcass.
It used to be that once a carcass is made the tread was applied, either as a separate piece or applied like to toothpaste to the carcass to give dual compounds and then moulded to the carcass in a rather hot round press. The tread (slick or wet) is a complex mix of chemicals which all tyre companies spend time money and expertise to develop. Theylook for new materials e.g. silica to give them that compound edge and they protect compound information as proprietary information. The blend is what I would consider to be the black art of tyres and is the domain of the individual tyre manufactueres science and chemical engineers.
Anyway without going on, the thing is that the under belt (carcass), which the wet compound is moulded to, is quite often thicker (depending on the manufacturer) than ordinary slicks carcasses to help with heat retention. So for example, the exact same compound blend can be used on two different carcasses, one that retains more heat and the other that loses heat and each one could be called either a soft full wet and the other a hard full wet. This works because one tyre retains the heat and the other dissipates the heat. Thus in the race on the weekend, the bikes generating heat through load exceeded the tyres heat limits and delaminated that section of tyre from the carcass while the riders or bikes that didn’t load the tyre as much or cooled the tyres did not. Conversely, the “hard” tyres carcass disappates the heat more easily to the track and ambient and also take longer to heat and needed a drier track to maintain the heat to make the compound blend to work. (heat range)
Anyway, I don’t know what carcass construction the wet Michelins were and how they related to each other (hard to soft) nor do I know the compounding characteristics of each blend. For all I know, the same carcass design was used but a different compound blend was used on each hard or soft. I do know that from experience that Michelin have traditionally had quite soft sidewall construction but extremely good under belt footprint control and shape. This gives very good grip but takes getting used to from a “different” feel perspective as compared to the Bridgestones. Anyway, from an old bloke’s point of view the delamination of the centre tread is not a quality issue but a heat and load issue, either from the excess heat build up in the carcass or the compound blend exceeding its limits. It's not quality control but heat control and blend characteristics.
Better to ask whether the “wings” increased front end load? Or weight distribution? Or braking load? one of these factors was the cause.
I don't expect that the tyre manufacturers will tell everyone exactly what carcass design they used on the weekend and what the compound blends used were but at some stage an over view of how carcass and compound s work together and how load, ambient and track temps work in relation to each other. This might help reduce questions of quality and lead to a better understanding of the complexities that tyre negineers and technicains face with heat, load and grip on modern MotoGP bikes at different circuits with quite varying ambiant and track temps, ashalt mix pebble sizes and load
Pinched from motomatters, but a good informed read on tyres.
Click to expand...

Learn to use the quotation button. It gives the impression you wrote it, which I knew was too good to be true. I noticed you did a ninja edit to mention Motomatters at the end. Still doesn't look right.
 
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Fixed.
Tack off of Motomatters said:
Perhaps David it would be a good time, if you have the time and resources to do an article, or get someone to do an article, on how race tyres are made.
Many years ago, I used to work for a Japanese race tyre company and back then the carcass was made first. Carcasses are important for a few reasons, first and most important is the carcass supports the tread which mostly is a slick tread but in this case is a wet patterned tread.
The carcass determines the tread shape, footprint size and controls distortion (, in conjunction with air pressure) and gives the rider feel. The other very important aspect which is either not openly revealed or understood is the carcass controls or supports heat lose or retention through the side walls and into the wheel. The compound works in conjunction with the carcass.
It used to be that once a carcass is made the tread was applied, either as a separate piece or applied like to toothpaste to the carcass to give dual compounds and then moulded to the carcass in a rather hot round press. The tread (slick or wet) is a complex mix of chemicals which all tyre companies spend time money and expertise to develop. Theylook for new materials e.g. silica to give them that compound edge and they protect compound information as proprietary information. The blend is what I would consider to be the black art of tyres and is the domain of the individual tyre manufactueres science and chemical engineers.
Anyway without going on, the thing is that the under belt (carcass), which the wet compound is moulded to, is quite often thicker (depending on the manufacturer) than ordinary slicks carcasses to help with heat retention. So for example, the exact same compound blend can be used on two different carcasses, one that retains more heat and the other that loses heat and each one could be called either a soft full wet and the other a hard full wet. This works because one tyre retains the heat and the other dissipates the heat. Thus in the race on the weekend, the bikes generating heat through load exceeded the tyres heat limits and delaminated that section of tyre from the carcass while the riders or bikes that didn’t load the tyre as much or cooled the tyres did not. Conversely, the “hard” tyres carcass disappates the heat more easily to the track and ambient and also take longer to heat and needed a drier track to maintain the heat to make the compound blend to work. (heat range)
Anyway, I don’t know what carcass construction the wet Michelins were and how they related to each other (hard to soft) nor do I know the compounding characteristics of each blend. For all I know, the same carcass design was used but a different compound blend was used on each hard or soft. I do know that from experience that Michelin have traditionally had quite soft sidewall construction but extremely good under belt footprint control and shape. This gives very good grip but takes getting used to from a “different” feel perspective as compared to the Bridgestones. Anyway, from an old bloke’s point of view the delamination of the centre tread is not a quality issue but a heat and load issue, either from the excess heat build up in the carcass or the compound blend exceeding its limits. It's not quality control but heat control and blend characteristics.
Better to ask whether the “wings” increased front end load? Or weight distribution? Or braking load? one of these factors was the cause.
I don't expect that the tyre manufacturers will tell everyone exactly what carcass design they used on the weekend and what the compound blends used were but at some stage an over view of how carcass and compound s work together and how load, ambient and track temps work in relation to each other. This might help reduce questions of quality and lead to a better understanding of the complexities that tyre negineers and technicains face with heat, load and grip on modern MotoGP bikes at different circuits with quite varying ambiant and track temps, ashalt mix pebble sizes and load .
Click to expand...
 
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moto vudu said:
Interesting. I don't understand why Dovi feels Michelin needed another wet to slot between the soft & the hard, when Cal proved the hard was perfect. Dovi doesn't feel if he had the hard tires he would have been able to fight for the win?
Click to expand...

And yet Michelin is bringing exactly what Dovi suggested tp Silverstone.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
So does this mean delamingate is over? Can we go back to talking about how funny(brittish) Cal is?
Click to expand...
Or we can switch to that other thread and discuss how our British bloke friend has formulated the works factory Honda RCV is holding Pedrosa back.


If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
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#22 said:
In the same way that the Michelin soft front was a defective tyre rather than a good tyre that was overheated.
Click to expand...

I may or may not wade through the more recent part of this debate, but it is quite amusing that when people start with the conclusion and work back to finding the evidence, they can sometimes "prove" all manner of things, admitting that people on both sides of debates doubtless including me do this. It is also imo what Valentino did in the days after the PI race.

I have read the stuff which Daniboy posted from the bloke who was involved in tyre manufacturing and it makes sense to me, having never disputed that the conditions were involved in the tyre issue, the problem which the good MV doesn't seem able to grasp being that it is unacceptable for the tyre to fail in the way it did rather than just wear out, particularly in conditions where slicks were still not usable.

Having acknowledged that MM's explanation for his tactics at PI was perfectly reasonable by applying substantially the same explanation to how it was that MM's and Rossi's tyres lasted this race, he now risks proving Jumkie's Michelin 2016 tyre conspiracy.

I am perfectly willing to attribute the delaminations to an intrinsic issue with the design and/or construction of the tyre not suiting particular bikes or riding styles rather than a quality control problem. As you imply, this was exactly the issue with the dry "soft" tyre earlier this year, which worked wonderfully well for Jorge Lorenzo, but had a tendency to explode when combined with a Ducati GP bike. The total disintegration of those tyres could not be ignored, and the delamination issue is not much less catastrophic imo.

All of this hardly disagrees with Jumkie's contention that this year's Michelin tyres are specifically made to suit Valentino's riding style, or Povol's corollary to Jumkie's hypothesis, that Valentino is still screwed because any tyre which suits him will also suit MM. Jumkie also argues that Ducati have consistently been screwed, which these events would also seem to support.

My main position on the tyres has always been against a control tyre. I don't think there would be issues like this if there was a tyre war, or if there were they would be resolved/fixed quickly. If there is to be a control tyre there should be sufficient variety to suit different bike characteristics and riding styles, at least to some degree.
 
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lil red rocket pilot said:
AHEM! could you do better?
Click to expand...

Could i do better?,in terms of riding?, no of course not,in terms of humility?, definitely,i ride an R1 in my spare time for fun,i'm not a professional racer,i think you are missing my point entirely,once he'd got his first podium he started acting like jack the ....... lad,gesticulating wildly at riders who he considers inferior if they got in front of him on track,he suddenly thought he was Mister ....... big time 'cos he'd got a 3rd place,he's a cocky .... who thinks he's a lot better than he really is, remember he could do everybody else's jobs a lot better than they could do his,now he's had a win he'll be even worse,people say it's Brit humour,well i'm British and i don't think it is,he sit's between 2 world champions at a press conference and gobs off about 'playing around with them',.... Off Cuntslow.you've had 1 win and i'll bet my left bollock you never get another.
 

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