Brno 2016

michaelm · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
Yet, you can't post a damn thing that shows a soft Bridgestone is more durable and wouldn't have failed at Brno.

Everyone was wrong. You really are Talpa, not the other suspects.

What occurred in this reality is that Michelin tyres failed at Brno, idiosyncratically, suddenly and semi-catastrophically, which no tyre should do.

The other posters in this thread do not inhabit any alternative realities, so perhaps you have the advantage on us.

JPSLotus · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
JPS,

A little tidbit on wet tire construction.

It's not hard to understand that the unsupported flexible elements on a wet tire may separate from the carcass if there isn't sufficient water to keep them cool.

I believe tire marbles are a perfectly normal (but undesirable) phenomenon that occurs as the track surface shaves rubber from the surface of the tire. As the race continues, much of that hot rubber starts to build up in the outside of the corners.. some of it clumps together to make bigger "marbles".

I'm well aware to have longevity and performance, wet weather tires need water to cool. It's been that way for many years. There also was water out there on the circuit, and you continually ignore the discrepancy in tires between Rossi and Lorenzo. Tire management alone doesn't account for the centerline coming out of Lorenzo's tire, when Lorenzo doesn't stress the front under braking the way Rossi does.

However you also ignore that Bridgestone developed their wet weather tires by simply using them on a dry track surface to see how they wore, and to make the necessary adjustments based on all of the resultant data.

You should also try linking to the bottom quote which came from an article where the section that quote comes from is discussing retreaded truck tires as opposed to wet weather racing tires.

Tread Compounds and Elements Battle a Tire's Enemy: Heat - Tire Review Magazine

michaelm · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
When did I say delamination was normal? Quote my post. Thanks.

OK, so we have now even more clearly established that you also don't understand the concept of irony.

Maybe the moon really is made of green cheese.

moto vudu · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu · Aug 23, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I'm well aware to have longevity and performance, wet weather tires need water to cool. It's been that way for many years. There also was water out there on the circuit, and you continually ignore the discrepancy in tires between Rossi and Lorenzo. Tire management alone doesn't account for the centerline coming out of Lorenzo's tire, when Lorenzo doesn't stress the front under braking the way Rossi does.

However you also ignore that Bridgestone developed their wet weather tires by simply using them on a dry track surface to see how they wore, and to make the necessary adjustments based on all of the resultant data.

You should also try linking to the bottom quote which came from an article where the section that quote comes from is discussing retreaded truck tires as opposed to wet weather racing tires.

Tread Compounds and Elements Battle a Tire's Enemy: Heat - Tire Review Magazine

While the track was wet, it wasn't wet enough to prevent at least 3 cases of delamination. I don't care about Lorenzo "usually" braking lighter than Rossi. Show me the data! Has Yamaha given you access to each rider's data and you know for a fact that Rossi was braking harder than Lorenzo at Brno?

Marc is a hard braker and his RCV is usually hard on the front tire, yet he saved his front tire every bit as well as Rossi did. An argument could be made that Marc did an even better job since he started faster than Rossi.

moto vudu · Aug 23, 2016

michaelm said:
OK, so we have now even more clearly established that you also don't understand the concept of irony.

Maybe the moon really is made of green cheese.

You're not even debating right now, you're just posting pure dumb ..... Isn't it nearly 2am there? Take your tired ... to bed.

JPSLotus · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
While the track was wet, it wasn't wet enough to prevent at least 3 cases of delamination. I don't care about Lorenzo "usually" braking lighter than Rossi. Show me the data! Has Yamaha given you access to each rider's data and you know for a fact that Rossi was braking harder than Lorenzo at Brno?

Marc is a hard braker and his RCV is usually hard on the front tire, yet he saved his front tire every bit as well as Rossi did. An argument could be made that Marc did an even better job since he started faster than Rossi.

Your tenuous position has already been exposed as being nothing more than complete .........

Citing retreaded truck tire construction was a low point even for you.

michaelm · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
You're not even debating right now, you're just posting pure dumb ..... Isn't it nearly 2am there? Take your tired ... to bed.

I am tired, but will try to explain this to you patiently and in simple language.

You are the one making contentions about Bridgestone wet tyres delaminating in the absence of this ever actually occurring, the onus of proof is on you

I also, perhaps oddly, don't need to prove that a Michelin soft wet would have delaminated.

moto vudu · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu · Aug 23, 2016

JPSLotus said:
You should also try linking to the bottom quote which came from an article where the section that quote comes from is discussing retreaded truck tires as opposed to wet weather racing tires.

Tread Compounds and Elements Battle a Tire's Enemy: Heat - Tire Review Magazine

The science behind a tire overheating and failing is the same for a car, truck, or racing tire.

JPSLotus · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
The science behind a tire overheating and failing is the same for a car, truck, or racing tire.

Whoosh.

You're still not getting it.

If tire delamination was a serious consideration by running the soft wets, Michelin has the responsibility to say something. They know what tire strategies the teams will be running before the race. Michelin, and any tire supplier will account for scenarios that may or may not occur, such as the possibility that the track would not dry enough to make switching to a different tire a viable option.

Michelin did not expect the tires to delaminate if they had to be exposed to prolong use as they were (because they have to account for that possibility) otherwise they would have told GP that a mandatory bike switch was needed. They were unsure in Argentina about longevity, so they mandated the bike switch. They did no such thing at the Brno. That decision tells you everything you need to know.

lil red rocket pilot · Aug 23, 2016

Did anyone else notice the lack of booing last weekend?
Refreshing.

#22 · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
Use the Soft in the same way you should use a Hard and all bets are off. Maybe it will stay in one piece... maybe it wont. If it comes apart, it's your own fault for using the wrong gotdamn tire!

moto vudu said:
Anytime the rubber separates, that can be defined as the tire failing. Blame the manufacturer if it happens while the tire was used in the conditions it was designed for. Blame yourself if you used the tire outside of the conditions it was designed for.

You don't buy a sports car and use it like a pickup truck, then blame the sports car manufacturer for not making it as durable while off-roading as the F-150 Raptor. OMG, my sports car chassis should never have failed, I don't care if I was off-roading and taking jumps! This is a safety issue!

Interesting, maybe you should have been the Lawyer for Firestone and Ford when the NHTSA sued them for deaths caused by tyre failures on the first generation Ford Explorers. It was discovered the failures were caused b running lower pressures and the tyres delaminating. But by your defence argument of "If the tyre fails causing a crash it's the owners fault for using the wrong gotdamn pressure!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy

Yeah, see how far you'd have got with that argument.

moto vudu said:
Meh, kind of hard to say that JPS. The center strip on the tire didn't separate at Misano 2015, however chunks of rubber did separate from the carcass. That is chunks of the tread being thrown from the tire and not only from the edges. I can call that a tire failure. But once gain, you're comparing HARD tires at Misano to SOFT at Brno... and once again... you still can't seem to grasp the difference between the two. The soft will always be the most likely to experience a catastrophic failure simply due to the nature of the tire. It has a very small operating range.

Do you have photographic evidence t support that argument?

kure91 · Aug 23, 2016

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Richy56 · Aug 23, 2016

lil red rocket pilot said:
Did anyone else notice the lack of booing last weekend?
Refreshing.

It was although I think it was largely because Lorenzo didn't make the podium and Rossi did. Hopefully people have got over it. I think when Marc shook hands with Rossi that was the best moment of the season to stop the nonsense

What I did notice is the volume go up when Rossi made a pass. Never noticed it before until someone mentioned it on here, but it's obvious

povol · Aug 23, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I'm well aware to have longevity and performance, wet weather tires need water to cool. It's been that way for many years. There also was water out there on the circuit, and you continually ignore the discrepancy in tires between Rossi and Lorenzo. Tire management alone doesn't account for the centerline coming out of Lorenzo's tire, when Lorenzo doesn't stress the front under braking the way Rossi does.

However you also ignore that Bridgestone developed their wet weather tires by simply using them on a dry track surface to see how they wore, and to make the necessary adjustments based on all of the resultant data.

You should also try linking to the bottom quote which came from an article where the section that quote comes from is discussing retreaded truck tires as opposed to wet weather racing tires.

Tread Compounds and Elements Battle a Tire's Enemy: Heat - Tire Review Magazine

Not just truck tires, Semi truck tires that have what, a speed capacity of 90 mph

povol · Aug 23, 2016

#22 said:
Interesting, maybe you should have been the Lawyer for Firestone and Ford when the NHTSA sued them for deaths caused by tyre failures on the first generation Ford Explorers. It was discovered the failures were caused b running lower pressures and the tyres delaminating. But by your defence argument of "If the tyre fails causing a crash it's the owners fault for using the wrong gotdamn pressure!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy

Yeah, see how far you'd have got with that argument.

Do you have photographic evidence t support that argument?

I was working for Ford when this occurred. The Exploder was built with the rigid truck frame and rode accordingly, like a vehicle with a rigid truck frame. Since the Exploder was being marketed as a luxury SUV, the consumer was balking because of ride quality. Fords fix was to instruct the dealers service departments to underinflate the tires during prep so they would ride smoother.

moto vudu · Aug 23, 2016

povol said:
Not just truck tires, Semi truck tires that have what, a speed capacity of 90 mph

The article explaining how heat affects a tire isn't specific to trucks. It only mentions truck tires when talking about a truck tire cannot be retreaded if it suffer too much heat damage. Neither you or JPS has refuted the information, you're only attempting to attack the source (which is usually what happens when someone can't refute).

Increased tire temperatures are the principal cause of rubber degradation and can lead to fatigue cracking, belt separation, tread block tearing and chunking. It can affect a tire's air permeability, which can cause underinflation. At the same time, it's been discovered that air permeating into a tire's rubber compound can accelerate oxidative degradation.

Explain how a racing tire is exempt from that.

JPSLotus · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
The article explaining how heat affects a tire isn't specific to trucks. It only mentions truck tires when talking about a truck tire cannot be retreaded if it suffer too much heat damage. Neither you or JPS has refuted the information, you're only attempting to attack the source (which is usually what happens when someone can't refute).

Increased tire temperatures are the principal cause of rubber degradation and can lead to fatigue cracking, belt separation, tread block tearing and chunking. It can affect a tire's air permeability, which can cause underinflation. At the same time, it's been discovered that air permeating into a tire's rubber compound can accelerate oxidative degradation.

Explain how a racing tire is exempt from that.

Oh let me throw this back in your face.

How do you know the tire temperatures were increased on the failed tires?

Do you have access to the tire data from Yamaha, Ducati, and Suzuki?

povol · Aug 23, 2016

moto vudu said:
The article explaining how heat affects a tire isn't specific to trucks. It only mentions truck tires when talking about a truck tire cannot be retreaded if it suffer too much heat damage. Neither you or JPS has refuted the information, you're only attempting to attack the source (which is usually what happens when someone can't refute).

Increased tire temperatures are the principal cause of rubber degradation and can lead to fatigue cracking, belt separation, tread block tearing and chunking. It can affect a tire's air permeability, which can cause underinflation. At the same time, it's been discovered that air permeating into a tire's rubber compound can accelerate oxidative degradation.

Explain how a racing tire is exempt from that.

For one thing, the science to build race tires rated at 240 mph that last 70 miles is quite different than the science used to make a tire designed to go 2-300 thousand miles with a 90 mph speed rating. So no, the science is not even close to being the same.

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