Brno 2016

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Where are laps 2-4? Rossi clearly lost confidence and slowed down on his 2nd bike.



I was right about the tires yesterday, so now you're looking to nitpick everything hoping to find something I'm now wrong about? Let me save you some time & trouble.

8 - 2 = 294

There ya go! Have at it.

Lap 1: 1'43.344
Lap 2: 1'42.295
Lap 3: 1'42.222
Lap 4: 1'41.481

He had 5 laps in the 40's out of 20.
He had 8 laps in the 41's out of 20.
He had 4 laps in the 42's out of 20.

Looks like his real pace was in the 41's as he spent 40% of the race in the 41's and only 25% in the 40's. In fact he nearly had as many laps in the 42's as he did the 40's.

I'm not nitpicking, I'm telling you your claim about Argentina and the tire was total blatant fabricated ......... He threw the tire out there as a red herring to detract from the reality he never had the pace to challenge MM, and it was not due to tires.
 
Arrabbi, what's your take on wet tires coming apart in drying / dry conditions?

I understand and concur with your point in respect of the intended purpose of the soft wet tyre. For want of a better phrase, have you ever prodded one? It’s like plasticine. As Krop’s piece mentions, these are designed ideally for full on torrential conditions, those similar to the start of the Moto 2 race. Referring to my original post #224, the clamour for the soft rear appears to have been precipitated by Iannone, which never bodes well. Who else? – a man renowned for trading durability for opening fast laps as we saw when he attempted to run races using what was essentially a couple of grades away from a qualifying tyre availed to the open class bikes last year. It was a risky strategy, but then no one expected the medium rear and soft front to work for him last week at the Red Bull Ring. Sprint out of the traps, build a lead and switch bikes whilst those on the hard front are teetering around mired in the pack and marooned at the back of the field riding the early laps on marbles. What could possibly go wrong?

Baz’s testing accident at Sepang was a consequence of low pressure, a transgression that RD are particularly vigilant about punishing, which is why Keifer Racing – although Dunlop shod, were justifiably demoted on the grid and not simply because Kent had a performance advantage associated with a lower PSI. Imagine that??!!?

o-TOM-BRADY-SLEEP-facebook-1-1940x970.jpg

How the hell did that get in there?

I digress. Despite Baz’s misfortune, for which the team were fully accountable, Scotty’s delamination at Argentina was deeply concerning and since you are very fond of mentioning Lorenzo’s mental fragility, I can tell you that it seriously spooked Redding. Michelin were negligent and it could have resulted in serious injury if not a loss of life far less the psychological effect on the rider and their confidence. Technical failures will always occur when you are pushing machinery to the limits, but were the Michelin soft wets outside of that envelope of safety and if so, should there be a wider margin beyond optimal parameters?

As you said: ‘It's always going to be a percentage of the tires failing when they're used for the wrong conditions. Every single tire isn't going to fail the exact same way or at the exact same time. Different riding styles will have an affect [sic]on this.’

…and as has already been mentioned, differences in set up will either tend to exacerbate or ameliorate wear. Rider style determines the comfort zone of optimal set up preferences, which impacts upon rider confidence - axiomatic maybe, but is overlooked in so many threads on here. In spite of your point regarding the wrong conditions, I do think that Dovi for one would beg to differ and agree with the contention that the lack of consistency is a matter of grave concern. You made the point that Dovi is a hard braker I agree – a particular strength in the 125 and 250 class - but so is Iannone and remember, Dovi runs a significantly longer bike than the other Andrea. Dovi’s tyre failed without warning, prematurely and almost catastrophically which in those conditions, shouldn't have happened. Given the abundance of surface water at that early stage in the race to cool the tyres, that is entirely a quality control issue and in no way was the rider culpable in my opinion. If Michelin as you say gave their assent for the tyre to be used in anticipation of a white flag, irrespective of the rapidly drying track and aside from the fact that the tyres are best deployed in teeming rain, it was after all a wet race and the duration of Dovi’s should have been well within tolerances of the product. As Lorenzo opined, you expect degradation on a drying track and side wear but when pieces go out of the tyre this shouldn’t happen. Meanwhile, Iannone’s dogged determination/stupidity reminded me of Hunt on the rims at Fuji - although no one as imploring him to pit.

The main point that I want to reiterate is that far from being whimps, I don’t believe that the M1s were capable of convincingly running the hard - hard combination like Crutchlow even if they wanted to.
 
Point is the soft wets were the wrong tire to go full race distance in yesterday's race. There were 3 failures, but that's not Michelin's fault! Michelin brought the proper tire for the race, not their problem more riders didn't choose it.

Lorenzo had the same tires as Rossi, but his race was different. Lorenzo pushed harder as there was even less water on the track which would explain his front overheating enough to cause such a failure.

You don't have a precedent because there isn't one, yet you are better equipped to judge that the tyres failing as they did was a routine phenomenon than Jorge Lorenzo and Ramon Forcada, having just proffered as evidence for Rossi having a tyre problem him saying so?
 
Where are laps 2-4? Rossi clearly lost confidence and slowed down on his 2nd bike.
.

His lap 2-4 times were pretty average, 42.2, 42.2 followed by a 41.5,
Marc's same laps were 42.0, 41.6, 41.4.

I assume JPS left those out as they were early in the fight and had little relevance compared to laps 7-10.


Edit:;;;

Bah he already made his argument... Too slow!
 
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His lap 2-4 times were pretty average, 42.2, 42.2 followed by a 41.5,
Marc's same laps were 42.0, 41.6, 41.4.

I assume JPS left those out as they were early in the fight and had little relevance compared to laps 7-10.


Edit:;;;

Bah he already made his argument... Too slow!

:D

Lap 1 is largely irrelevant since it was the start, but laps 2-4, I had left out so as to make Rossi look a little better by the numbers. Oops.
 
Although I'm sure I'm not the only one of this forum that has unpopular opinions, I'm currently the only one that still post such opinions and stand by them over and over and over again. The rest of you band together like a Rossi-hating cult.

Continuing to argue an unpopular position may be brave or even admirable, but doesn't have much to do with whether you are correct. Some whom you now oppose argued similarly for Hayden or Stoner when this forum comprised Rossi fans almost exclusively, which was fun actually.
 
Although I'm sure I'm not the only one of this forum that has unpopular opinions, I'm currently the only one that still post such opinions and stand by them over and over and over again. The rest of you band together like a Rossi-hating cult.

In addition to I admiring your tenacity and conviction I do value a balance of opinion on here, that also extends to impartiality. You are clearly very articulate and passionate about the sport. Sometimes your unwavering and dogged defence of Rossi is by your own admission purely to be facetious, smacks of fanboysim and is invariably at the expense of subjectivity. It would also be far more noble of you if you were to suspend your obvious prejudice against Lorenzo - particularly rich when you insist on continually indiscriminately levelling the 'hater' tag at practically every opinion that does not accord with your own.
 
I was the one giving Lorenzo more credit for his qualifying on Saturday while many posters here were praising Marquez for slipstreaming and passing Rossi.
 
I did notice and actually laughed when they both got their rocks off in unison at the sight of Rossi in the back ground. Had it not been a British rider winning the race, it would have been a totally depressing day for them. As far as Lorenzo, where in the hell did they expect him to go, he was way faster .
Lorenzo was on much newer tyres than everyone else at that point.
Hahaha, oh I get it, you're doing those posts again where you say something utterly ridiculous to parody some cute point your trying to make.

Rider's riding style (as Daniboy said earlier to hypothesize why Lorenzo's tires chunked) or riding hard (your ridiculous hypothesis) or braking hard, etc. is NOT a rational, plausible reason for tires to fail! WTF is going on in your head?

You etal: Well of course his tires fell apart, look at him squeezing the brake lever so hard and then cracking the throttle wide open...uhm, WTF?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
Delamination caused by overheating could imo be caused by different loading of the tyre due to different braking , lines through corners , pushing harder from further back or pushing too hard in the beginning of the race. I don't think it's acceptable for such large chunks of rubber to part company with the carcass and Michelin need to work on the bonding process to prevent it happening again, perhaps even do the unthinkable and go headhunting for Bridgestone techs.
 
Lorenzo was on much newer tyres than everyone else at that point.Delamination caused by overheating could imo be caused by different loading of the tyre due to different braking , lines through corners , pushing harder from further back or pushing too hard in the beginning of the race. I don't think it's acceptable for such large chunks of rubber to part company with the carcass and Michelin need to work on the bonding process to prevent it happening again, perhaps even do the unthinkable and go headhunting for Bridgestone techs.

The hard option Michelin wets have done just as well as the hard option Bridgestone wets. I believe you're comparing the soft option Michelins to the durability of the hard option Bridgestones.
 
The hard option Michelin wets have done just as well as the hard option Bridgestone wets. I believe you're comparing the soft option Michelins to the durability of the hard option Bridgestones.

No, I think both soft tyre types are just as likely to lose rubber , just Bridgestone seemed to lose it more gradually rather than the sudden losses we saw yesterday. I think Bridgestones bonding technique was better.
 
No, I think both soft tyre types are just as likely to lose rubber , just Bridgestone seemed to lose it more gradually rather than the sudden losses we saw yesterday. I think Bridgestones bonding technique was better.

Can you a recall a race with the soft Bridgestones in similar conditions as the race yesterday?
 
I understand and concur with your point in respect of the intended purpose of the soft wet tyre. For want of a better phrase, have you ever prodded one? It’s like plasticine. As Krop’s piece mentions, these are designed ideally for full on torrential conditions, those similar to the start of the Moto 2 race. Referring to my original post #224, the clamour for the soft rear appears to have been precipitated by Iannone, which never bodes well. Who else? – a man renowned for trading durability for opening fast laps as we saw when he attempted to run races using what was essentially a couple of grades away from a qualifying tyre availed to the open class bikes last year. It was a risky strategy, but then no one expected the medium rear and soft front to work for him last week at the Red Bull Ring. Sprint out of the traps, build a lead and switch bikes whilst those on the hard front are teetering around mired in the pack and marooned at the back of the field riding the early laps on marbles. What could possibly go wrong?

Baz’s testing accident at Sepang was a consequence of low pressure, a transgression that RD are particularly vigilant about punishing, which is why Keifer Racing – although Dunlop shod, were justifiably demoted on the grid and not simply because Kent had a performance advantage associated with a lower PSI. Imagine that??!!?

View attachment 12225

How the hell did that get in there?

I digress. Despite Baz’s misfortune, for which the team were fully accountable, Scotty’s delamination at Argentina was deeply concerning and since you are very fond of mentioning Lorenzo’s mental fragility, I can tell you that it seriously spooked Redding. Michelin were negligent and it could have resulted in serious injury if not a loss of life far less the psychological effect on the rider and their confidence. Technical failures will always occur when you are pushing machinery to the limits, but were the Michelin soft wets outside of that envelope of safety and if so, should there be a wider margin beyond optimal parameters?

As you said: ‘It's always going to be a percentage of the tires failing when they're used for the wrong conditions. Every single tire isn't going to fail the exact same way or at the exact same time. Different riding styles will have an affect [sic]on this.’

…and as has already been mentioned, differences in set up will either tend to exacerbate or ameliorate wear. Rider style determines the comfort zone of optimal set up preferences, which impacts upon rider confidence - axiomatic maybe, but is overlooked in so many threads on here. In spite of your point regarding the wrong conditions, I do think that Dovi for one would beg to differ and agree with the contention that the lack of consistency is a matter of grave concern. You made the point that Dovi is a hard braker I agree – a particular strength in the 125 and 250 class - but so is Iannone and remember, Dovi runs a significantly longer bike than the other Andrea. Dovi’s tyre failed without warning, prematurely and almost catastrophically which in those conditions, shouldn't have happened. Given the abundance of surface water at that early stage in the race to cool the tyres, that is entirely a quality control issue and in no way was the rider culpable in my opinion. If Michelin as you say gave their assent for the tyre to be used in anticipation of a white flag, irrespective of the rapidly drying track and aside from the fact that the tyres are best deployed in teeming rain, it was after all a wet race and the duration of Dovi’s should have been well within tolerances of the product. As Lorenzo opined, you expect degradation on a drying track and side wear but when pieces go out of the tyre this shouldn’t happen. Meanwhile, Iannone’s dogged determination/stupidity reminded me of Hunt on the rims at Fuji - although no one as imploring him to pit.

The main point that I want to reiterate is that far from being whimps, I don’t believe that the M1s were capable of convincingly running the hard - hard combination like Crutchlow even if they wanted to.
.
 

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I understand and concur with your point in respect of the intended purpose of the soft wet tyre. For want of a better phrase, have you ever prodded one? It’s like plasticine. As Krop’s piece mentions, these are designed ideally for full on torrential conditions, those similar to the start of the Moto 2 race. Referring to my original post #224, the clamour for the soft rear appears to have been precipitated by Iannone, which never bodes well. Who else? – a man renowned for trading durability for opening fast laps as we saw when he attempted to run races using what was essentially a couple of grades away from a qualifying tyre availed to the open class bikes last year. It was a risky strategy, but then no one expected the medium rear and soft front to work for him last week at the Red Bull Ring. Sprint out of the traps, build a lead and switch bikes whilst those on the hard front are teetering around mired in the pack and marooned at the back of the field riding the early laps on marbles. What could possibly go wrong?

Baz’s testing accident at Sepang was a consequence of low pressure, a transgression that RD are particularly vigilant about punishing, which is why Keifer Racing – although Dunlop shod, were justifiably demoted on the grid and not simply because Kent had a performance advantage associated with a lower PSI. Imagine that??!!?

View attachment 12225

How the hell did that get in there?

I digress. Despite Baz’s misfortune, for which the team were fully accountable, Scotty’s delamination at Argentina was deeply concerning and since you are very fond of mentioning Lorenzo’s mental fragility, I can tell you that it seriously spooked Redding. Michelin were negligent and it could have resulted in serious injury if not a loss of life far less the psychological effect on the rider and their confidence. Technical failures will always occur when you are pushing machinery to the limits, but were the Michelin soft wets outside of that envelope of safety and if so, should there be a wider margin beyond optimal parameters?

As you said: ‘It's always going to be a percentage of the tires failing when they're used for the wrong conditions. Every single tire isn't going to fail the exact same way or at the exact same time. Different riding styles will have an affect [sic]on this.’

…and as has already been mentioned, differences in set up will either tend to exacerbate or ameliorate wear. Rider style determines the comfort zone of optimal set up preferences, which impacts upon rider confidence - axiomatic maybe, but is overlooked in so many threads on here. In spite of your point regarding the wrong conditions, I do think that Dovi for one would beg to differ and agree with the contention that the lack of consistency is a matter of grave concern. You made the point that Dovi is a hard braker I agree – a particular strength in the 125 and 250 class - but so is Iannone and remember, Dovi runs a significantly longer bike than the other Andrea. Dovi’s tyre failed without warning, prematurely and almost catastrophically which in those conditions, shouldn't have happened. Given the abundance of surface water at that early stage in the race to cool the tyres, that is entirely a quality control issue and in no way was the rider culpable in my opinion. If Michelin as you say gave their assent for the tyre to be used in anticipation of a white flag, irrespective of the rapidly drying track and aside from the fact that the tyres are best deployed in teeming rain, it was after all a wet race and the duration of Dovi’s should have been well within tolerances of the product. As Lorenzo opined, you expect degradation on a drying track and side wear but when pieces go out of the tyre this shouldn’t happen. Meanwhile, Iannone’s dogged determination/stupidity reminded me of Hunt on the rims at Fuji - although no one as imploring him to pit.

The main point that I want to reiterate is that far from being whimps, I don’t believe that the M1s were capable of convincingly running the hard - hard combination like Crutchlow even if they wanted to.

Good post. Definitely some bad judgment displayed by a lot of teams to copy what Iannone was doing with tire selection.

As for the Michelins soft-wets needing a wider margin outside of normal operating parameters, I don't know how Michelin can do that without making the softs more like a medium. You can easily sink a fingernail into a soft-wet tire, but that sort of compound is needed to maintain grip and the proper temperature during a downpour. Hardening the compound even a little bit will decrease some of the grip, but increase the temperature threshold.

The soft Michelins did just fine during the heavy rain in Assen. I haven't seen anything that suggest they do not work as intended when used in the conditions they're intended for. For all we know, if the race yesterday was on soft-wet Bridgestones, there could have been twice the amount of catastrophic failures.
 
Motegi last year, both yam riders ended the race on shredded tyres.

Thanks. I can't recall much from that race from memory, I'll look it up. I understand that you feel Michelin should be able to find a better way to bond the soft rubber to the carcass so that even in the event of severe overheating, the rubber doesn't separate. I can't disagree, but I don't know enough about tire construction to understand what's required to do that.
 
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Hmm. NOW, you sound bitter. I thought I was pretty light-heartedly accurate. The U.S. has zero chance to score any points in MotoGP, and almost zero chance for a win in WSBK. Meanwhile, there are "Brits" all over the world motorcycle stage. Sorry that you focus on the U.K. draught. Glad this isn't 'footbul', or I would really get a ration, I bet. rofl

Back to tires: That Lorenzo tire came apart in the middle where it should be hardest, and it was only half gone on the side. That is a piece of crap, to me. And it has nothing to do with normal dry wear on a rain tire. How MM and others made their tires last, is beyond me, unless quality control is really that shoddy.

I'm so sorry we promote and sponsor our riders, and not to mention BSB, Probably the best feeder series outside WSBK and Motogp that is a successful training platform that is regularly attended by 40-50,000 fans.

Perhaps you should take a bit of your bitterness and aim it at your fellow countrymen and get them to support that tin pot ama or whatever crap series it is over there and maybe, just maybe the U S will have something to shout about,
Now back under your rock. There you go :p
 

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