Brno 2016

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Motegi 2015 is what you would expect to result from Rossi better preserving a wet tyre ie passing Lorenzo late with Lorenzo hanging on at a slower pace, not going from fastest on the track to catastrophe in a single lap; Dani Pedrosa actually won that race on Bridgestone wets btw.

In this race at least 3 riders not all on the same bikes or with the same tyre choice had tyre catastrophes at quite different times.

I was referring to the same tyres producing radically different results.

Even in this race, the Ducatis destroyed their fronts, whereas Marquez managed his fine. On the other hand, Pedrosa had no grip at all. Maybe Rossi managed his tyres better than Jorge (like in Motegi). Perhaps Lorenzo overheated his tyre by setting the fastest lap. To automatically conclude a conspiracy is unwarranted.
 
Like 8+ pages of the most ........ debate I have ever seen. Either he is trolling or dumb.
 
https://motomatters.com/analysis/2016/08/22/2016_brno_motogp_sunday_round_up_a.html

The right tire for the right conditions

The main one, which Michelin Motorsports boss Nicolas Goubert pointed out to me, and then reiterated in the press release, is that the soft tires were made for full wet conditions. The reason for bringing two different compounds of wet tires was to cope with a wide range of conditions. The soft tire was meant to deal with a track that was absolutely soaking, with patches of water. The rubber is almost as soft as chewing gum, and incredibly sticky. The hard tire is meant to help clear water from a drying track, and withstand the heat generated by a dry line.

In short, the riders who chose the soft tires were taking a big gamble, and using the tires for conditions they were not designed to handle. Many riders – among them Marc Márquez and Maverick Viñales – had expected to come in and swap bikes at some point as the track dried. The soft tires were more than capable of handling half race distance on a drying track, being swapped for intermediates or slicks.

But the track didn't dry out enough to allow riding with slicks, or even intermediates. There were large sections of the circuit which remained fully wet, while others had a wide drying line. More experienced riders understood that the track would not dry out as quickly as it had at the Sachsenring, because of the nature of the circuit. "At the Sachsenring, it was possible to switch over to slicks because it dried so quickly," Eugene Laverty explained. "There's one line at that track, and it's just a case of joining the dots between the apexes. Here there are so many left to right corners and there's a lot of variation in the lines here between the different bikes so the track wouldn't dry as quick. It's one line in Germany but there's so many left to rights here that riders are going everywhere. "
 
Not sure why this tyre delamination is even being debated. If you have ever raced a motorbike, you will know that delamination of a tyre is completely different to wear and it being chewed up.

Delamination is a safety issue and if continues to happen the race should be red flagged otherwise someone will suffer a catastrophic failure and get seriously hurt. It was lucky this didn't happen on Sunday.

Of course delamination is different than tire wear, my argument is delamination is much more likely to occur when the tire is used outside of its normal operating threshold (severe overheating).

If the soft-wet tires delaminated during the downpour in Assen, that's a major problem because that's the type of environment those tires are made for. If the hard-wet tires delaminated yesterday, that's a problem because they're made for those conditions. A slick tire coming apart in the dry is a major problem as well. There are different tire compounds for different conditions for a reason.
 
That's right, and in fact Rossi, by coming from 12th to 2nd, must have been pushing his soft front harder than anyone, certainly much more than Dovi, more even than Iannone.

Not really. Riding styles, set-ups and bikes all differ. See Emmett's article today; the Ducatis have far more front end downforce.
 
I was referring to the same tyres producing radically different results.

Even in this race, the Ducatis destroyed their fronts, whereas Marquez managed his fine. On the other hand, Pedrosa had no grip at all. Maybe Rossi managed his tyres better than Jorge (like in Motegi). Perhaps Lorenzo overheated his tyre by setting the fastest lap. To automatically conclude a conspiracy is unwarranted.

I don't think anyone except perhaps JPS and Jumkie are alleging conspiracy, just that a particular variety of Michelin tyre may be subpar and prone to catastrophic failure, which would not be unprecedented this season.
 
The right tire for the right conditions

The main one, which Michelin Motorsports boss Nicolas Goubert pointed out to me, and then reiterated in the press release, is that the soft tires were made for full wet conditions. The reason for bringing two different compounds of wet tires was to cope with a wide range of conditions. The soft tire was meant to deal with a track that was absolutely soaking, with patches of water. The rubber is almost as soft as chewing gum, and incredibly sticky. The hard tire is meant to help clear water from a drying track, and withstand the heat generated by a dry line.

In short, the riders who chose the soft tires were taking a big gamble, and using the tires for conditions they were not designed to handle. Many riders – among them Marc Márquez and Maverick Viñales – had expected to come in and swap bikes at some point as the track dried. The soft tires were more than capable of handling half race distance on a drying track, being swapped for intermediates or slicks.

But the track didn't dry out enough to allow riding with slicks, or even intermediates. There were large sections of the circuit which remained fully wet, while others had a wide drying line. More experienced riders understood that the track would not dry out as quickly as it had at the Sachsenring, because of the nature of the circuit. "At the Sachsenring, it was possible to switch over to slicks because it dried so quickly," Eugene Laverty explained. "There's one line at that track, and it's just a case of joining the dots between the apexes. Here there are so many left to right corners and there's a lot of variation in the lines here between the different bikes so the track wouldn't dry as quick. It's one line in Germany but there's so many left to rights here that riders are going everywhere. "

I've made the exact same points and have been called a thick-headed fool!
 
Of course delamination is different than tire wear, my argument is delamination is much more likely to occur when the tire is used outside of its normal operating threshold (severe overheating).

If the soft-wet tires delaminated during the downpour in Assen, that's a major problem because that's the type of environment those tires are made for. If the hard-wet tires delaminated yesterday, that's a problem because they're made for those conditions. A slick tire coming apart in the dry is a major problem as well. There are different tire compounds for different conditions for a reason.
Yeah but it should be consistent. A tyre should not delaminate for one bloke and not the next just because he rides a bit different, there all on similar bikes. That's totally unacceptable. Tyres should be designed and made to cater for all the riders regardless of the conditions.

Plus, I'm dam sure Michelin would not have recommended the soft to the riders if they knew it would delaminate.
 
Yeah but it should be consistent. A tyre should not delaminate for one bloke and not the next just because he rides a bit different, there all on similar bikes. That's totally unacceptable. Tyres should be designed and made to cater for all the riders regardless of the conditions.

Plus, I'm dam sure Michelin would not have recommended the soft to the riders if they knew it would delaminate.

It's always going to be a percentage of the tires failing when they're used for the wrong conditions. Every single tire isn't going to fail the exact same way or at the exact same time. Different riding styles will have an affect on this.

Michelin didn't know the race wouldn't be flag-to-flag. It's not like the teams didn't know the soft tires would be hard to make last full race distance! Yamaha was likely planning on ignoring the white flag and because of that strategy they ended up choosing the right rear tire!
 
It's always going to be a percentage of the tires failing when they're used for the wrong conditions. Every single tire isn't going to fail the exact same way or at the exact same time. Different riding styles will have an affect on this.

Michelin didn't know the race wouldn't be flag-to-flag. It's not like the teams didn't know the soft tires would be hard to make last full race distance! Yamaha was likely planning on ignoring the white flag and because of that strategy they ended up choosing the right rear tire!

I was only partly joking in my earlier post. If no tyre defects are involved, and Marquez, after being able to load the front more and get heat into a slick in drying conditions to win an earlier race this year, can then on the fly mid race last Sunday having planned for a flag to flag race, made the wrong tyre choices and on a bike for which set-up is reputedly problematic with the introduction of the generic ECU switch to loading his front wet less than anyone else he really is an unprecedented genius and all other discussion is moot.

I am comfortable with him being better than Lorenzo or Stoner for that matter btw, I prefer my heroes a little flawed.
 
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The same happened in Motegi last year Bridgestones.
Like this?

557dc91196746e8c69a0afa538a1bfcc.jpg


If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
Man, I swear reading the last few pages of this thread is absolutely hilarious. Why are you guys so spun up?!!?

But anyway, Rossi did get a bad tire in Argentina! Remember, he dropped over a second a lap when he switched to his 2nd bike that had the exact same setup as #1.
Like this?

6f7c5b3bc1c5392c7fe60c0274d41bc0.jpg


If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
I was only partly joking in my earlier post. If no tyre defects are involved, and Marquez, after being able to load the front more and get heat into a slick in drying conditions to win an earlier race this year, can then on the fly mid race last Sunday having planned for a flag to flag race, made the wrong tyre choices and on a bike for which set-up is reputedly problematic with the introduction of the generic ECU switch to loading his front wet less than anyone else he really is an unprecedented genius and all other discussion is moot.

I am comfortable with him being better than Lorenzo or Stoner for that matter btw, I prefer my heroes a little flawed.

If you go back a few pages, you'll see that I gave Marquez some credit and said he was very smart. Marc said in the press conference that when he realized the track wasn't drying fast enough for a flag-to-flag he knew he had to save his tires. He was able to save his tires without dropping too far off the pace to miss out on a podium. Excellent situational awareness and riding by Marquez, it's impossible not to give that man big credit.
 
It's always going to be a percentage of the tires failing when they're used for the wrong conditions. Every single tire isn't going to fail the exact same way or at the exact same time. Different riding styles will have an affect on this.

Michelin didn't know the race wouldn't be flag-to-flag. It's not like the teams didn't know the soft tires would be hard to make last full race distance! Yamaha was likely planning on ignoring the white flag and because of that strategy they ended up choosing the right rear tire!
Disagree sorry. Seeing the state of the tyres, the race should have been stopped. It's likely that a result would have been called if it was stopped but when certain riders are making head way then it obviously influences the decision.

For me the tyre should not delaminate end off. they should be designed and made not to do so. Bridgestone did it, and there tyres were also consistent
 
Disagree sorry. Seeing the state of the tyres, the race should have been stopped. It's likely that a result would have been called if it was stopped but when certain riders are making head way then it obviously influences the decision.

For me the tyre should not delaminate end off. they should be designed and made not to do so. Bridgestone did it, and there tyres were also consistent

Your issue is with RD then, not Michelin. I never defended RD once in this thread. But, having said that... I think I could come up with a little defense for RD given the circumstances.
 
I don't think anyone except perhaps JPS and Jumkie are alleging conspiracy, just that a particular variety of Michelin tyre may be subpar and prone to catastrophic failure, which would not be unprecedented this season.
I'm not alleging conspiracy in the delamination of Lorenzo's tires versus Rossi’s.

I have however, and still do, contend that the overall design and development of the Michelin is this year is decidedly in Rossi's favor.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 

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