Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

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Honda or Yamaha?

  • Honda

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Yamaha

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
Arrabbiata1 said:
Agree.



Like Traverser said, every bike will encounter chatter, it's then down to the degree of the affliction and whether it can be effectively dialled out or what compromises have to be made. Which is why understanding the machinery is so vital. Something I am at repeated pains to explain to Barry regarding Valentino's predicament at Ducati. Rossi and crew are trying to understand the motorcycle to move it forward - the fact that as ever he has the GDP equivalent to a large African nation at his disposal in order to explore this is by the by, but does demonstrate the degree to which that motorcycle confounds conventional development. The fact that for many years he could place a phone call on a Saturday to Clermont Ferrand requesting a particular specification of tyre where others could not considerably helped matters when it came to the Sunday.



I would suggest that because Casey near instantly adapts and doggedly learns to ride around difficulties this effectively screened inherent problems and stymied development.



I disagree to an extent Kesh, I think that one of Valentino's strengths throughout his career is his unique communication/interaction with his crew and his team and his inimitable ability to present precise feedback and interpret telemetry - not only in respect of the feeling he gets from bike and tyres but specifically what is needed in order to improve it. I really believe that makes a huge difference as opposed to blind set up requests.



Currently you can point to many incidents where the M1 is appearing to get crossed up and out of shape but that owes more to the fact that the riders at yamaha are pushing these machines to the absolute limit - something that Valentino is unable/unwilling to do. Eliminating and understanding chatter is never elementary and is indeed a black art. I don't think that eliminating chatter on the RC213v is as easy as the yamaha because it lacks the stability/response which has always been a hallmark of a yamaha racing motorcycle. I think that in its current state, irrespective of who is riding it, the Honda is more prone to set up woes and predisposed to chatter exacerbated by the disharmony between tyres and chassis. Success in this sport has repeatedly been built around developing a chassis to match the tyre - something which Ducati did very well during the 990 era and the accompanying switch to Bridgestone unlike Suzuki who for so long needed a tyre to match the bike. Honda have undoubtably been shafted - but I suspect they are rather overstating the problem - particularly when it comes to Pedrosa's protestations. Yeah, I hear you Jum, they overturned/subverted the rookie rule in favour of their rider and recently I was locking horns with the brilliant 'Rising Sun' over my contention that they forced the move to 800cc. We can't underestimate the power that they wield perhaps a power/monoploy that Ezy himself has finally realised is unhealthy for the sport. But the the change was made in spite of Honda's belated objections. With Marquez and the introduction of the 800cc rule they influenced and manipulated the outcome. In the interim before Honda find a remedy, Stoner's solution is to again adapt his riding style. Chasing a rampant and indomitable Lorenzo in the process presents a huge challenge.
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Remember Masao Furusawa, when he first commented on Rossi's move to Ducati -- he said that Valentino had an uncanny ability to tell what's happening in a GP bike, but maybe he was "too good for Ducati. In that case he'll become another source of 'noise'". I'm quoting from memory but think this is what he said.



And that's what's been happening... Ducati do not have the 60 years of experience of Yamaha and Honda in GP, and their capacity to translate precise inputs into engineering solutions. So his inputs become another noise. There is maybe even a degree of attachment to certain design icons -- last of which is the 90° L engine architecture.



Add to this the fact that Vale as a top rider has been (imho) losing his sharpness since 2010, and you have the complete recipe for the current failure.
 
michaelm said:
It is remotely possible I have the vocabulary and the semantic ability to write something like this, but I have nothing even slightly resembling the flair or the imagination.



Bravo. I have nothing to add to this thread now.
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Agree. I thought long and hard before entering debate with the man i consider the Guru Of Racing Opinion. But dont go away just yet, as i intend to attempt a rebuttal--day off be damned. Put away ur dictionary, i use small words.
 
Jumkie said:
Agree. I thought long and hard before entering debate with the man i consider the Guru Of Racing Opinion. But dont go away just yet, as i intend to attempt a rebuttal--day off be damned. Put away ur dictionary, i use small words.
Click to expand...
Get a YouTube Chanel and make a program out of it, might as well go all out.
 
13729:caps.jpg]









Outta all the people in the history of motorsports, I would love or kill to read a "no holding back" autobiography from this guy the most.





Any other way to settle a debate, you tell me.
 

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Traverser said:
13729:caps.jpg]









Outta all the people in the history of motorsports, I would love or kill to read a "no holding back" autobiography from this guy the most.





Any other way to settle a debate, you tell me.
Click to expand...





No hope for that as long as he takes money from Dorna and/or Bridgestone.



Meanwhile we will have to make do with Jum's "rebuttal" that is in the (hard) works.
<
 
J4rn0 said:
Remember Masao Furusawa, when he first commented on Rossi's move to Ducati -- he said that Valentino had an uncanny ability to tell what's happening in a GP bike, but maybe he was "too good for Ducati. In that case he'll become another source of 'noise'". I'm quoting from memory but think this is what he said.



And that's what's been happening... Ducati do not have the 60 years of experience of Yamaha and Honda in GP, and their capacity to translate precise inputs into engineering solutions. So his inputs become another noise. There is maybe even a degree of attachment to certain design icons -- last of which is the 90° L engine architecture.



Add to this the fact that Vale as a top rider has been (imho) losing his sharpness since 2010, and you have the complete recipe for the current failure.
Click to expand...

Experience can be purchased, see Honda, there is no excuse for Ducati's continued poor performance year after year. The stuff about Ducati needing to be different because of less experience than the Japanese is also just an excuse. How long have BMW been building sport bikes that compete with the Japanese bikes, they have a competitive bike and they did it while not having an extra 200cc. I guess you make excuses for them because you are Italian and maybe that's the reason the bean counters at Ducati have continued to let the same people produce the declining results year after year, to much loyalty and not enough accountability.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
I would suggest that because Casey near instantly adapts and doggedly learns to ride around difficulties this effectively screened inherent problems and stymied development.



I disagree to an extent Kesh, I think that one of Valentino's strengths throughout his career is his unique communication/interaction with his crew and his team and his inimitable ability to present precise feedback and interpret telemetry - not only in respect of the feeling he gets from bike and tyres but specifically what is needed in order to improve it. I really believe that makes a huge difference as opposed to blind set up requests.
Click to expand...

You don't think its possible top management at Ducati found it convenient to exploit Casey for all he was worth? A few wins per year on the minimum budget with minimal development might have been fairly attractive to a bunch of business execs looking at motogp as nothing more than a marketing exercise to expose the brand. They were never going to match Honda's spending. Which would mean Casey's development skills were irrelevant. And he was in the gravel trap enough to make it obvious there was a problem. Only with Rossi can it no longer be ignored.
 
birdman said:
You don't think its possible top management at Ducati found it convenient to exploit Casey for all he was worth? A few wins per year on the minimum budget with minimal development might have been fairly attractive to a bunch of business execs looking at motogp as nothing more than a marketing exercise to expose the brand. They were never going to match Honda's spending. Which would mean Casey's development skills were irrelevant. And he was in the gravel trap enough to make it obvious there was a problem. Only with Rossi can it no longer be ignored.
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Completely agree - I've made precisely this point before. I remember an interview with JB of all people when he was still at Yamaha in 2010 in which he said much the same. Ducati weren't in the hunt for a title again, rather a couple of wins a season to window dress the brand. To race fans the bike was still competitive and fast, the fact that it went down every other race was entirely the riders fault. I was consequently very surprised when Rossi and crew subsequently announced the move to Ducati - particularly in view of his remarks about the factory in 'What if I'd never tried it' stating that like Honda, Ducati were very much brand over rider.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
Completely agree - I've made precisely this point before. I remember an interview with JB of all people when he was still at Yamaha in 2010 in which he said much the same. Ducati weren't in the hunt for a title again, rather a couple of wins a season to window dress the brand. To race fans the bike was still competitive and fast, the fact that it went down every other race was entirely the riders fault. I was consequently very surprised when Rossi and crew subsequently announced the move to Ducati - particularly in view of his remarks about the factory in 'What if I'd never tried it' stating that like Honda, Ducati were very much brand over rider.
Click to expand...



Rossi had no other option. they offered him 2M a year more than Yam.
 
hawkdriver said:
Experience can be purchased, see Honda, there is no excuse for Ducati's continued poor performance year after year. The stuff about Ducati needing to be different because of less experience than the Japanese is also just an excuse. How long have BMW been building sport bikes that compete with the Japanese bikes, they have a competitive bike and they did it while not having an extra 200cc. I guess you make excuses for them because you are Italian and maybe that's the reason the bean counters at Ducati have continued to let the same people produce the declining results year after year, to much loyalty and not enough accountability.
Click to expand...



I am trying to identify a cause, what you call 'excuses' do not apply here. It is not the experience of an individual or two I am talking of, that can be purchased and they have done it (Rossi, Burgess, the frame specialists from Aprilia, external help from FTR); it is rather the overall experience, knowledge base, culture as a GP race department and R&D, which cannot be bought just by hiring people. By the way also Honda and Yamaha have plucked some of Ducati's best, 'purchasing' individuals is a game everybody can play and where you give and take. Company culture and knowledge base are a different thing and can only be built in time. Ducati have already won a title in MotoGP (something BMW still has to do in WSBK), if they persist they will eventually get there and become stable contenders as they are in WSBK.
 
birdman said:
You don't think its possible top management at Ducati found it convenient to exploit Casey for all he was worth? A few wins per year on the minimum budget with minimal development might have been fairly attractive to a bunch of business execs looking at motogp as nothing more than a marketing exercise to expose the brand. They were never going to match Honda's spending. Which would mean Casey's development skills were irrelevant. And he was in the gravel trap enough to make it obvious there was a problem. Only with Rossi can it no longer be ignored.
Click to expand...



Correct. Luckily Ducati now is no more in the hands of financers, but part of an automotive industrial group with a solid tradition and substantial resources. That could translate well into the future.
 
J4rn0 said:
I am trying to identify a cause, what you call 'excuses' do not apply here. It is not the experience of an individual or two I am talking of, that can be purchased and they have done it (Rossi, Burgess, the frame specialists from Aprilia, external help from FTR); it is rather the overall experience, knowledge base, culture as a GP race department and R&D, which cannot be bought just by hiring people. By the way also Honda and Yamaha have plucked some of Ducati's best, 'purchasing' individuals is a game everybody can play and where you give and take. Company culture and knowledge base are a different thing and can only be built in time. Ducati have already won a title in MotoGP (something BMW still has to do in WSBK), if they persist they will eventually get there and become stable contenders as they are in WSBK.
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Get with the plan j4rno. No-one, however well-informed, however fair-minded and however staunch a long-term supporter of valentino's can have any sympathy for ducati or point out any difficulties ducati might have with a small percentage of the budget of other teams. Similarly, no riders other than valentino can have difficulties (particularly with tyres), they and their followers only make excuses.
 
hawkdriver said:
Experience can be purchased, see Honda, there is no excuse for Ducati's continued poor performance year after year. The stuff about Ducati needing to be different because of less experience than the Japanese is also just an excuse. How long have BMW been building sport bikes that compete with the Japanese bikes, they have a competitive bike and they did it while not having an extra 200cc. I guess you make excuses for them because you are Italian and maybe that's the reason the bean counters at Ducati have continued to let the same people produce the declining results year after year, to much loyalty and not enough accountability.
Click to expand...



Sure exactly. It's right there on the shelf at K-Mart next to the box of instant wisdom and One-A-Day Inspired Thinking Pills.
<
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
Like I say, I agree this would have been better debated in person. I will commence preparation of my defence of Honda and the assembly of related exhibits/video evidence to counter the case for the prosecution. The hearing is set for early August..who knows what could have changed in the balance of power by the summer recess.
Click to expand...



Please don't take this offline - I waded through ten pages of this thread dodging Keshav and MdubSTYLIE's mudslinging to follow your debate!



BTW, I'm not voting on which "machine" is the best bike as I think it is a moot point - as has been pointed out by yourself Arrabbiata1, the best package is the Yamaha/Lorenzo/BS combination at present. Debating if Lorenzo went to Honda if he would do as well as on the Yamaha would not prove that the Honda was better or worse because the inherent design of the Yamaha favors Jorge's precise and smooth riding style, whereas were stoner to jump on the M1 it would not suite his aggressive, loose riding style and he would really lose out on corner exit.

(Sorry if this stance is wishy-washy and pussyish
<
).



I do think some of the points raised such as Stoner's inherent ability to ride around problems making it more difficult to setup and develop a bike are interesting, though difficult to substantiate.



I do, however, agree that the chatter issues with the Honda may be being overplayed a little, as anyone who has observed the sport for any amount of time will know that suspension setup is a fine balancing act - as soon as you iron out one issue another one will pop up.



In this day and age of increasingly complex and invasive electronics packages I do not believe the "brutish power delivery" of the Honda engine has any real basis for suggesting that this would be causing major handling issues and more especially not in the hands of Stoner who is an absolute God of throttle control.



Also Jumkie, I think it is a little unfair to use Spies lack of ability to produce results this season as pointing to the Yamaha as being inferior to the Honda - in my opinion, his performance (or lack thereof) this season is almost entirely due to his own state of mind rather than any major issue with the bike itself. The Tech3 duo doing so well thus far this season (bar them both falling off at Le Mans of course) seems to suggest that Yamaha has closed the substantial gap there was between the factory Honda and Yamaha of 2011 (although I do think that Dovi's riding style may be better suited to the Yamaha than the Honda).
 
michaelm said:
Get with the plan j4rno. No-one, however well-informed, however fair-minded and however staunch a long-term supporter of valentino's can have any sympathy for ducati or point out any difficulties ducati might have with a small percentage of the budget of other teams. Similarly, no riders other than valentino can have difficulties (particularly with tyres), they and their followers only make excuses.
Click to expand...



<
 
I generally dislike best bike statements because I feel it takes away from riders achievements. Yes 07 and 11 are in the forefront of my mind but it includes Rossi and Hayden in other years. For instance Rossi suffering from chronic chatter in 06 just balanced out with Hayden's dodgy clutch and other issues making it a fair one on one fight for the title, no excuses. Also after 2007 we should have all learnt what appears to be the best bike might not actually be the case.



Contrast to last year where almost overnight Honda became the best bike on the grid by far and the racing suddenly became so boring it was putting people to sleep. No lengthy discussions rationalizing why or that perhaps the Yamaha was still the equal machine despite Lorenzo winning in 2010 and still leading 2011 after 6 rounds, eventually beating Pedrosa and Dovi in the championship same as the year before.



Now suddenly this year it is claimed to be Stoner losing the championship on the best bike because of his mindset, it diminishes what Lorenzo is doing, because I believe Stoner would logically be trying 100% to go out a world champion. If there are great rivals equal in talent and machinery, statistical probability predicts they will each win equal number of championships which is what we are currently seeing with Lorenzo, Stoner, and Rossi having a head to head of 2:2:1, possibly soon to be 2:2:2.
 
birdman said:
Now suddenly this year it is claimed to be Stoner losing the championship on the best bike because of his mindset, it diminishes what Lorenzo is doing, because I believe Stoner would logically be trying 100% to go out a world champion. If there are great rivals equal in talent and machinery, statistical probability predicts they will each win equal number of championships which is what we are currently seeing with Lorenzo, Stoner, and Rossi having a head to head of 2:2:1, possibly soon to be 2:2:2.
Click to expand...

I entirely agree with the rest of your argument, but if as seems likely lorenzo wins this year it will put him even with rossi 2:2 and up on stoner 2:1 for championships, the relevant currency rather than lesser placings in the championship when discussing these 3 riders, none of whom ride for second in championships, or for second in races for that matter except when helpful to the aim of winning championships.
 

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