Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

There is no doubt in my mind also that it is lorenzo who is making the difference jumkie, and that in the last race at least imo this was significantly due to him riding the new tyre better particularly given that his and stoner's fastest pace and early race pace was similar, and as I said credit to him for this; the possibility that he was just managing his race and was at all times potentially even faster exists of course.



I am a subscriber to lex's post 2007 anti-ducati tyre conspiracy.



As I recall your answer in the silverstone race thread was that I was verging on tin foil hat territory in my views on the current tyre situation, which may be fair comment. I certainly don't think the new tyre was designed to help lorenzo . It was designed in response to criticism by the bulk of the riders last year of the then current tyre, and was the preference of the majority of the riders this year when the new tyres were tested. It is also available identically to all riders which it is hard to argue can be in any way unfair.



We definitely have a divergence of views where the control tyre is concerned in general though. I don't agree with it now, never did agree with it, and believe it to have been one of the worst things for the sport in recent years, and severely cost increasing rather than cost reducing. I don't recall you answering the specific question I have again posed (if you did I apologise, my memory is usually fairly good and I will have to attribute any deficiency to alcohol). While it is perfectly reasonable for the new tyre to have been brought in and all credit to jorge and as you say crutchlow and probably also dovi for using it so well as opposed to spies and to a lesser extent stoner and pedrosa, why is it that the alternative version could not also be made available to everyone and why was the old tyre available to everyone for the first 5 rounds withdrawn?



(EDIT I didn't ask why stoner couldn't have his 2007 tyres, although I did agree with lex asking this in 2008, I asked why he couldn't continue to have the tyres he had for the first 5 rounds this year. I was actually fine with them going for the majority choice for this year's tyre if they kept the old tyre, although as a stoner fan I would have liked both varieties of the new tyre available, it was neither tyre being available that impelled me to don the metallic headware).

Let's not take anything away from Jorge's riding. He's doing the business.



However, let's put it all into perspective, as well. I have a "feeling" Ducati were not the only team who knew about the weight limit increase ahead of time. This weight limit increase really upset Honda and appeared to hamper them the most. Plus the new tyres are crap on the Honda. It seems these tyres were designed to wear heavily with aggressive riding - guess who rides aggressively???



Ok, Stoner haters... I can see you all jumping up and down like frothing monkeys. But let's take a deep breath and look at the reasons why Dorna would engineer a conspiracy - unless you live in the wonderful world of Disney where there are no conspiracies, of course. Let's not forget, I did say we should take nothing away from Jorge's success, after all, he still has to ride the bloody thing.



OK. From Dorna's perspective:



#1. Apart from the Aussies, most people (especially the Spanish and British) don't like Stoner. Stoner winning = bad for sport



#2. When our boy (Jorge) wins, people are happy. People come to races. People buy merch. People tune-in.



#3. We need to piss Stoner off so he will leave. We know he hates us anyway and wants out...



#4. Make rule changes. Leak changes to our boy's team. Make Honda last to know of changes. Ask Bridgestone to engineer a "special tyre".



#5. When Stoner leaves, bring in our "new boy" to other team - make yet another rule change to allow this to happen. Therefore, we have control of both teams - like international bankers control both political parties and fund both sides of a war (ignore this last bit, Disney fans - maybe you can still tune-in to the football).



There you have it.



Did Dorna engineer all this? I don't know.



If they could, would they? Absolutely.

MdubSTYLIE said:

You are a ........ I did state evidence more than once. Go find it. I ask you repeatedly to do the same. But you just kept going on about Rossi and ducati and that my opinion is ..... You have shown me absolutely nothing. But just keep stating I am wrong over and over. I dont get my opinion from google or wiki, your just being a belittling .... as usual keshav. I have no history or reference to go off? Why because I am not all mighty keshav been watching since the 70's? .... off. I have owned motorcycles track, street and dirt. What the .... does that have to do with anything? Nothing just you trying to belittle people again. I am done "debating" with you buddy. Dont bother responding to this. Your an ........

Click to expand...

You do not comprehend the difference between opinion and evidence. You are in denial about your total inability to respond to a question with anything other than your unfounded opinion - which in your weakened mental state - you imagine is the same thing as evidence. It is not. Until you see the error of your ways and learn to think and respond with some reasonable facsimilie of reality based objectivity - you replies will continue to be nothing but mere black symbols on a monitor devoid of any meaning in the context of a debate. This may work for you when you're being the class clown - but ill serves you in a serious debate. It's nothing personal. It's just the way it is.



What it all boils down to:



Dubby "The world is flat, and Barry is a .....

Keshav "No you cannot substitute opinion for fact.

Dubby "Boo hoo you're picking on me.

basspete said:

This post sums the situation up perfectly. Though I'm dissapointed that you didn't point out he has ears and teeth of biblical proportions.

Click to expand...

No doubt and we all know how bad facial features detract from a man's character and his ability to race.

You really owe it to us to post a photo of your handsome mug so we can all know what pinnacle of personal appearance

all racers should aspire to. Tho we might have to go 'round calling you Handsome Pete.

Keshav said:

No doubt and we all know how bad facial features detract from a man's character and his ability to race.

You really owe it to us to post a photo of your handsome mug so we can all know what pinnacle of personal appearance

all racers should aspire to.

Tho we might have to go 'round calling you Handsome Pete.

Click to expand...

There s a good few pics of me in the music thread Kesh, and last years Silvo, and soon this years Silvo.



I'm not shy.

basspete said:

I'm not shy.

Click to expand...

No, and thats the problem!!

Jumkie said:

Its not every day I disagree with one of your takes, this is a rare occasion indeed. So, as you said, you outlined some reasons in the Silverstone race thread, so I’ll import that post here, then go back to the post you wrote in this thread.

Click to expand...

Jumkie said:

Part II....

Click to expand...

Jeez....case dismissed???!!!??? Have you ever considered a career as an attorney?



The specifics presented in your argument are exceptionally difficult to refute and not simply because they are so many of them, not because they are so outwardly systematically and cogently presented but also because it is exceedingly difficult to challenge a series of contentions underpinned by such confirmation bias. As such - your shoehorn is sharper and a more slippery deployed device to my occams razor which thanks to you my friend now appears to be a blunt tool.



My general feeling - and I say general, based upon my own observation, the empirical evidence and partially swayed by current opinion across plaudits pundits and paddock is that the Yamaha M1 is currently the best factory bike. Your admittedly brilliantly considered and articulated replies not only prompt me to challenge that belief, but also the foundations of my perceptions and the very epistemic derivation of these notions which are quite possibly flawed - you excel at that....I kid you not. I have a headache and I want to lie down. But migraine inducing posts aside, isn't that the essence of debating? and to me the lifeblood of any forum - To make one question ones own opinionated beliefs, to re-evaluate our assumptions via a structured dialectical process. I like the decorum of debate on Moto Matters for example it isn't blighted by the irrationality of your Crash.Net's and to a lesser extent Powerslide. Consensus is met through logical debate and respect of another's informed opinion instead of the fanboy polarisation, mud slinging and bias which abounds on here. I digress.



Returning to the O.P I've taken time out, reconsidered and you're talking complete ........ by the way http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif



I agree this is best settled in person, at dawn - a dialectical duel to the death. You choose your weapon and I'll choose mine. Which actually when you think about it is the crux of this debate. If Jorge had the choice of weapon which would he choose? You really believe he'd jump off the M1 and leap straight at a chance to ride the Honda? He's just answered that one and not simply because Yamaha have substantially raised the stakes. Had this become a bidding war HRC would've prevailed. CS and Jorge are good friends. Stoner could easily have made overtures to the effect that he might stay after all which Lorenzo would have been privy to thus driving up the value of that Honda seat. It's not so much about the money rather right now the preferential ride - which is the currently the Yamaha, but perhaps potentially the Honda is the better option. Looking again at the post title however it does say 'to date'. Assuming that means since the switch from 800cc which would make sense then yes, I would still vote for the M1.



In noticed you 'conveniently' glossed over/omitted the quote this week from Zeelengerg. I suppose he would say that, and I concede vested interests taint this opinion. But it is nonetheless a widely held opinion that the Yamaha's stability gives it the edge. Jum, given any race you will always be able to find individual instances to contradict this and buttress your own argument by fast forwarding coverage to a particular incidence of headshake of Spies Yamaha at 39:63 or scrutinising Jorge appearing to run wide on lap twelve turn four whilst the front end of Casey Stoners RC213v was looking as solid as the rock of Gibraltar under corner entry.



I watched warm up at Luffield principally because I was directed into the wrong carpark and not the one of choice, there is that, but primarily in all seriousness because I know that Luffield/not only offers superb close up viewing, but that Woodcote is a great place to evaluate the relative behaviour of the machinery and contrast in rider styles. I know what I saw and the most frightening beast was the Ducati of Barbera. Jorge was Jorge. inch perfect, remorselessly pounding out the same perfectly inscribed race lines which can be attributed to his finesse as a rider. Stoner is capable of the same, and so is Pedrosa which is one of the reasons he's so quick. The Honda's were visibly moving underneath both riders, the M1 of Lorenzo was not. I believe that if Jorge was on the Honda, not only would he be shouting for similar improvements but if previous form is anything to go by, he'd be shouting louder or at the very least as loud as Stoner and Pedrosa. I also believe that he wouldn't be able to summon his exceptional and exquisite 250 riding style as effectively - a style pedigree which Spies lacks. I also believe that Dani Pedrosa would not be able to make exploit that M1 as well as Lorenzo does - but I do think he'd fair better than on the Honda. My mention of Max in WSBk does not support your argument, far from it. I think the Aprilia plays to Biaggi's strengths and I couldn't see him emulating his 250 style to the same extent on an in line four in spite of the fact that he secured his title on the zook he looked decidedly un-max when he rode for Alstare. This don't mean that Biaggi isn't riding well - but it does mean that the Aprilia is maximising the advantages intrinsic to his riding style and I believe that the same can be said of Jorge - and so does Zeelenberg.



It seems to me that the purpose of this post was not to differentiate so much between machinery or to establish which the best bike is currently...you have already done that via your own preconceptions of which this thread enables you to air. But rather to demonstrate that not only is Jorge leading the championship through his superior riding to his rivals but he is also accomplishing this on an inferior bike to the Honda's. Like I said in a previous post, in his own words Jorge is on the limit to stave off the factory Honda's - there is no doubt that he is mentally stronger than Pedrosa and arguably more focussed than de-mob happy Stoner. I take nothing away from him as a rider and a sportsman. Results in this sport are determined and driven by a finely balanced synthesis of prevailing variables and mental preparation which together comprise comparative advantage. As a package the Lorenzo/Yamaha combination is a marriage made in heaven. For a marriage to work both parties have to want each other. It is the shotgun weddings in the paddock that ultimately cause the disharmony - extreme example Elias and LCR - or even Dovi and Repsol Honda last year. Lorenzo had the chance to go to HRC - he hasn't - the reasons he cites for this are manifold and can't simply be reduced to the fact that the M1 is the seemingly better bike. Saying that, I honestly do not believe the Jorge would be 25 points ahead in the championship right now were he riding for Honda - the reason I maintain that is down to the overall strengths of the Yamaha which 'to date' have benefitted Jorge's brilliant riding and infallible race brain. Further, I do think the change in tyre carcass has inhibited the progression and potential of the factory hondas - perhaps most tellingly and not least in the minds of the two riders contracted to ride them.



One point in isolation that I would like pick up on...Valentino crashed at Vale not because of ...... weather, cold tyres, or errant Ducati handling - which doubtless I concede didn't help, but because of a bump which lifted the front. Rossi blamed himself for hitting this notorious bump in the circuit which is not as many have supposed of Japanese origin seeking asylum from Motegi. The fact that Hayden went down in exactly the same spot on the same brand of motorcycle was...incredible but I don't think the incident governed either Valentino's tyre choice or race performance. Valentino is not pushing as hard as he is capable of - in his mind, why should he? I find it incredible that you on the one hand suggest that Valentino rode a gusty race both at Silverstone and Catalunya yet CS has lost focus. Like I say, Vale is forcing Ducati's hand - and far from being about to get his cards from Bologna like Bayliss, Melandri, Checa and so many other previous incumbents, as ever he holds all the cards in Moto GP as you yourself have spent the last six years on this forum demonstrating.



Like I say, I agree this would have been better debated in person. I will commence preparation of my defence of Honda and the assembly of related exhibits/video evidence to counter the case for the prosecution. The hearing is set for early August..who knows what could have changed in the balance of power by the summer recess.



In the meantime you'll be hearing from my legal team Willski & Associates.

Lorenzo did a good race but nothing out of this world: Cal Crutchlow raced similar lap times on a satellite M1 and with a broken ankle.



It's Stoner and Pedrosa who are not delivering, -- coincidence, they are both riding a Honda with chattering problems at the moment.

Keshav said:

What it all boils down to:



Dubby "The world is flat, and Barry is a .....

Click to expand...

Even you have to admit Kesh, Mdub does present very convincing arguments in support of the latter, albeit an axiom.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Jeez....case dismissed???!!!??? Have you ever considered a career as an attorney?



The specifics presented in your argument are exceptionally difficult to refute and not simply because they are so many of them, not because they are so outwardly systematically and cogently presented but also because it is exceedingly difficult to challenge a series of contentions underpinned by such confirmation bias. As such - your shoehorn is sharper and a more slippery deployed device to my occams razor which thanks to you my friend now appears to be a blunt tool.



My general feeling - and I say general, based upon my own observation, the empirical evidence and partially swayed by current opinion across plaudits pundits and paddock is that the Yamaha M1 is currently the best factory bike. Your admittedly brilliantly considered and articulated replies not only prompt me to challenge that belief, but also the foundations of my perceptions and the very epistemic derivation of these notions which are quite possibly flawed - you excel at that....I kid you not. I have a headache and I want to lie down. But migraine inducing posts aside, isn't that the essence of debating? and to me the lifeblood of any forum - To make one question ones own opinionated beliefs, to re-evaluate our assumptions via a structured dialectical process. I like the decorum of debate on Moto Matters for example it isn't blighted by the irrationality of your Crash.Net's and to a lesser extent Powerslide. Consensus is met through logical debate and respect of another's informed opinion instead of the fanboy polarisation, mud slinging and bias which abounds on here. I digress.



Returning to the O.P I've taken time out, reconsidered and you're talking complete ........ by the way

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif



I agree this is best settled in person, at dawn - a dialectical duel to the death. You choose your weapon and I'll choose mine. Which actually when you think about it is the crux of this debate. If Jorge had the choice of weapon which would he choose? You really believe he'd jump off the M1 and leap straight at a chance to ride the Honda? He's just answered that one and not simply because Yamaha have substantially raised the stakes. Had this become a bidding war HRC would've prevailed. CS and Jorge are good friends. Stoner could easily have made overtures to the effect that he might stay after all which Lorenzo would have been privy to thus driving up the value of that Honda seat. It's not so much about the money rather right now the preferential ride - which is the currently the Yamaha, but perhaps potentially the Honda is the better option. Looking again at the post title however it does say 'to date'. Assuming that means since the switch from 800cc which would make sense then yes, I would still vote for the M1.



In noticed you 'conveniently' glossed over/omitted the quote this week from Zeelengerg. I suppose he would say that, and I concede vested interests taint this opinion. But it is nonetheless a widely held opinion that the Yamaha's stability gives it the edge. Jum, given any race you will always be able to find individual instances to contradict this and buttress your own argument by fast forwarding coverage to a particular incidence of headshake of Spies Yamaha at 39:63 or scrutinising Jorge appearing to run wide on lap twelve turn four whilst the front end of Casey Stoners RC213v was looking as solid as the rock of Gibraltar under corner entry.



I watched warm up at Luffield principally because I was directed into the wrong carpark and not the one of choice, there is that, but primarily in all seriousness because I know that Luffield/not only offers superb close up viewing, but that Woodcote is a great place to evaluate the relative behaviour of the machinery and contrast in rider styles. I know what I saw and the most frightening beast was the Ducati of Barbera. Jorge was Jorge. inch perfect, remorselessly pounding out the same perfectly inscribed race lines which can be attributed to his finesse as a rider. Stoner is capable of the same, and so is Pedrosa which is one of the reasons he's so quick. The Honda's were visibly moving underneath both riders, the M1 of Lorenzo was not. I believe that if Jorge was on the Honda, not only would he be shouting for similar improvements but if previous form is anything to go by, he'd be shouting louder or at the very least as loud as Stoner and Pedrosa. I also believe that he wouldn't be able to summon his exceptional and exquisite 250 riding style as effectively - a style pedigree which Spies lacks. I also believe that Dani Pedrosa would not be able to make exploit that M1 as well as Lorenzo does - but I do think he'd fair better than on the Honda. My mention of Max in WSBk does not support your argument, far from it. I think the Aprilia plays to Biaggi's strengths and I couldn't see him emulating his 250 style to the same extent on an in line four in spite of the fact that he secured his title on the zook he looked decidedly un-max when he rode for Alstare. This don't mean that Biaggi isn't riding well - but it does mean that the Aprilia is maximising the advantages intrinsic to his riding style and I believe that the same can be said of Jorge - and so does Zeelenberg.



It seems to me that the purpose of this post was not to differentiate so much between machinery or to establish which the best bike is currently...you have already done that via your own preconceptions of which this thread enables you to air. But rather to demonstrate that not only is Jorge leading the championship through his superior riding to his rivals but he is also accomplishing this on an inferior bike to the Honda's. Like I said in a previous post, in his own words Jorge is on the limit to stave off the factory Honda's - there is no doubt that he is mentally stronger than Pedrosa and arguably more focussed than de-mob happy Stoner. I take nothing away from him as a rider and a sportsman. Results in this sport are determined and driven by a finely balanced synthesis of prevailing variables and mental preparation which together comprise comparative advantage. As a package the Lorenzo/Yamaha combination is a marriage made in heaven. For a marriage to work both parties have to want each other. It is the shotgun weddings in the paddock that ultimately cause the disharmony - extreme example Elias and LCR - or even Dovi and Repsol Honda last year. Lorenzo had the chance to go to HRC - he hasn't - the reasons he cites for this are manifold and can't simply be reduced to the fact that the M1 is the seemingly better bike. Saying that, I honestly do not believe the Jorge would be 25 points ahead in the championship right now were he riding for Honda - the reason I maintain that is down to the overall strengths of the Yamaha which 'to date' have benefitted Jorge's brilliant riding and infallible race brain. Further, I do think the change in tyre carcass has inhibited the progression and potential of the factory hondas - perhaps most tellingly and not least in the minds of the two riders contracted to ride them.



One point in isolation that I would like pick up on...Valentino crashed at Vale not because of ...... weather, cold tyres, or errant Ducati handling - which doubtless I concede didn't help, but because of a bump which lifted the front. Rossi blamed himself for hitting this notorious bump in the circuit which is not as many have supposed of Japanese origin seeking asylum from Motegi. The fact that Hayden went down in exactly the same spot on the same brand of motorcycle was...incredible but I don't think the incident governed either Valentino's tyre choice or race performance. Valentino is not pushing as hard as he is capable of - in his mind, why should he? I find it incredible that you on the one hand suggest that Valentino rode a gusty race both at Silverstone and Catalunya yet CS has lost focus. Like I say, Vale is forcing Ducati's hand - and far from being about to get his cards from Bologna like Bayliss, Melandri, Checa and so many other previous incumbents, as ever he holds all the cards in Moto GP as you yourself have spent the last six years on this forum demonstrating.



Like I say, I agree this would have been better debated in person. I will commence preparation of my defence of Honda and the assembly of related exhibits/video evidence to counter the case for the prosecution. The hearing is set for early August..who knows what could have changed in the balance of power by the summer recess.



In the meantime you'll be hearing from my legal team Willski & Associates.

Click to expand...

It is remotely possible I have the vocabulary and the semantic ability to write something like this, but I have nothing even slightly resembling the flair or the imagination.



Bravo. I have nothing to add to this thread now.

Keshav said:

Wayne Rainey

Kevin Schwantz

Kenny Roberts

Wayne Gardner

Mick Doohan













Rainey rode for Kawasaki and Honda before going to Yamaha just for starters.

Roberts first race was on a Kawasaki H1R

Wayne Gardner started on a Yamaha TZ250

Doohan started out racing Yamaha TZ250s and RZ500s

Schwantz started out racing supercross and not as I recall on a Suzuki.



Do your homework muppet.

Click to expand...

I did. Not that I needed to do that much, I remember.



I was talking 500GP racing. Where they made their name, where they became champions. This is the GP world championship forum isn't it?

What they rode before they came to the show has absolutely no relevance in the terms in which you made your statement.



And how about toning it the .... down a little? Are you always such a ....?

J4rn0 said:

Lorenzo did a good race but nothing out of this world: Cal Crutchlow raced similar lap times on a satellite M1 and with a broken ankle.



It's Stoner and Pedrosa who are not delivering, -- coincidence, they are both riding a Honda with chattering problems at the moment.

Click to expand...

Agree.



Like Traverser said, every bike will encounter chatter, it's then down to the degree of the affliction and whether it can be effectively dialled out or what compromises have to be made. Which is why understanding the machinery is so vital. Something I am at repeated pains to explain to Barry regarding Valentino's predicament at Ducati. Rossi and crew are trying to understand the motorcycle to move it forward - the fact that as ever he has the GDP equivalent to a large African nation at his disposal in order to explore this is by the by, but does demonstrate the degree to which that motorcycle confounds conventional development. The fact that for many years he could place a phone call on a Saturday to Clermont Ferrand requesting a particular specification of tyre where others could not considerably helped matters when it came to the Sunday.



I would suggest that because Casey near instantly adapts and doggedly learns to ride around difficulties this effectively screened inherent problems and stymied development.



I disagree to an extent Kesh, I think that one of Valentino's strengths throughout his career is his unique communication/interaction with his crew and his team and his inimitable ability to present precise feedback and interpret telemetry - not only in respect of the feeling he gets from bike and tyres but specifically what is needed in order to improve it. I really believe that makes a huge difference as opposed to blind set up requests.



Currently you can point to many incidents where the M1 is appearing to get crossed up and out of shape but that owes more to the fact that the riders at yamaha are pushing these machines to the absolute limit - something that Valentino is unable/unwilling to do. Eliminating and understanding chatter is never elementary and is indeed a black art. I don't think that eliminating chatter on the RC213v is as easy as the yamaha because it lacks the stability/response which has always been a hallmark of a yamaha racing motorcycle. I think that in its current state, irrespective of who is riding it, the Honda is more prone to set up woes and predisposed to chatter exacerbated by the disharmony between tyres and chassis. Success in this sport has repeatedly been built around developing a chassis to match the tyre - something which Ducati did very well during the 990 era and the accompanying switch to Bridgestone unlike Suzuki who for so long needed a tyre to match the bike. Honda have undoubtably been shafted - but I suspect they are rather overstating the problem - particularly when it comes to Pedrosa's protestations. Yeah, I hear you Jum, they overturned/subverted the rookie rule in favour of their rider and recently I was locking horns with the brilliant 'Rising Sun' over my contention that they forced the move to 800cc. We can't underestimate the power that they wield perhaps a power/monoploy that Ezy himself has finally realised is unhealthy for the sport. But the the change was made in spite of Honda's belated objections. With Marquez and the introduction of the 800cc rule they influenced and manipulated the outcome. In the interim before Honda find a remedy, Stoner's solution is to again adapt his riding style. Chasing a rampant and indomitable Lorenzo in the process presents a huge challenge.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Even you have to admit Kesh, Mdub does present very convincing arguments in support of the latter, albeit an axiom.

Click to expand...

Indubitably.



In quoting his most memorable contribution to the cannon of Powerslide Goon Show silliness I was offering a crumb of soothing largesse to demonstrate my capacity to objectively view him as not totally lacking in merit.

Keshav said:

You do not comprehend the difference between opinion and evidence. You are in denial about your total inability to respond to a question with anything other than your unfounded opinion - which in your weakened mental state - you imagine is the same thing as evidence. It is not. Until you see the error of your ways and learn to think and respond with some reasonable facsimilie of reality based objectivity - you replies will continue to be nothing but mere black symbols on a monitor devoid of any meaning in the context of a debate. This may work for you when you're being the class clown - but ill serves you in a serious debate. It's nothing personal. It's just the way it is.



What it all boils down to:



Dubby "The world is flat, and Barry is a .....

Keshav "No you cannot substitute opinion for fact.

Dubby "Boo hoo you're picking on me.

Click to expand...

No your the real bully here keshav. You choose to dismiss everything I say and your rebutles are nothing but insults. which is your normal routine buddy. But I am the clown, right. Well I shall start dismissing what you say because you are a ..... For 8 pages you dismiss Casey's when totals as facts. No rebuttle just nah-uh you an ..... over and over. You have shown me no facts against my argument what so ever. Just admit your wrong for once.

Keshav said:

Indubitably.



In quoting his most memorable contribution to the cannon of Powerslide Goon Show silliness I was offering a crumb of soothing largesse to demonstrate my capacity to objectively view him as not totally lacking in merit.

Click to expand...

and you always have been and will be a hypocritical ........

Zootalaws said:

I did. Not that I needed to do that much, I remember.



A. I was talking 500GP racing. Where they made their name, where they became champions. This is the GP world championship forum isn't it?

What they rode before they came to the show has absolutely no relevance in the terms in which you made your statement.



B. And how about toning it the .... down a little? Are you always such a ....?

Click to expand...

A. It was never stated that the discussion was limited to one class of racing. And since Stoner and never

rode 500s he would necessarily be excluded from such a limited discussion.



B In the future I will try not to use harsh words like Muppet. Do you talk to your mother with that mouth.?

MdubSTYLIE said:

No your the real bully here keshav. You choose to dismiss everything I say and your rebutles are nothing but insults. which is your normal routine buddy. But I am the clown, right. Well I shall start dismissing what you say because you are a ..... For 8 pages you dismiss Casey's when totals as facts. No rebuttle just nah-uh you an ..... over and over. You have shown me no facts against my argument what so ever. Just admit your wrong for once.

Click to expand...

If my posts are so terrible you should do with them what you do with objective facts and concrete dialog; put them on your ignore list.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Agree.



Like Traverser said, every bike will encounter chatter, it's then down to the degree of the affliction and whether it can be effectively dialled out or what compromises have to be made. Which is why understanding the machinery is so vital. Something I am at repeated pains to explain to Barry regarding Valentino's predicament at Ducati. Rossi and crew are trying to understand the motorcycle to move it forward - the fact that as ever he has the GDP equivalent to a large African nation at his disposal in order to explore this is by the by, but does demonstrate the degree to which that motorcycle confounds conventional development. The fact that for many years he could place a phone call on a Saturday to Clermont Ferrand requesting a particular specification of tyre where others could not considerably helped matters when it came to the Sunday.



I would suggest that because Casey near instantly adapts and doggedly learns to ride around difficulties this effectively screened inherent problems and stymied development.



I disagree to an extent Kesh, I think that one of Valentino's strengths throughout his career is his unique communication/interaction with his crew and his team and his inimitable ability to present precise feedback and interpret telemetry - not only in respect of the feeling he gets from bike and tyres but specifically what is needed in order to improve it. I really believe that makes a huge difference as opposed to blind set up requests.



Currently you can point to many incidents where the M1 is appearing to get crossed up and out of shape but that owes more to the fact that the riders at yamaha are pushing these machines to the absolute limit - something that Valentino is unable/unwilling to do. Eliminating and understanding chatter is never elementary and is indeed a black art. I don't think that eliminating chatter on the RC213v is as easy as the yamaha because it lacks the stability/response which has always been a hallmark of a yamaha racing motorcycle. I think that in its current state, irrespective of who is riding it, the Honda is more prone to set up woes and predisposed to chatter exacerbated by the disharmony between tyres and chassis. Success in this sport has repeatedly been built around developing a chassis to match the tyre - something which Ducati did very well during the 990 era and the accompanying switch to Bridgestone unlike Suzuki who for so long needed a tyre to match the bike. Honda have undoubtably been shafted - but I suspect they are rather overstating the problem - particularly when it comes to Pedrosa's protestations. In the interim before Honda find a remedy, Stoner's solution is to adapt his riding style. Chasing a rampant and indomitable Lorenzo in the process is a huge challenge.

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I will contradict myself by adding to the thread. I agree the yamaha looks the better balanced bike, and hence may be less sensitive to/more adaptable to weight or tyre changes. The honda is perhaps more like the fighter plane with the glide characteristics of a house brick that requires very finely balanced technology to fly straight. As I have suggested yamaha may have outsmarted honda again.



I am not in favour of the rules being changed during the game though. That the dastardly honda are suffering rather than ducati, suzuki or kawasaki makes no substantive difference, imo. Whatever honda can be blamed for I don't believe they are responsible for the control tyre.

Keshav said:

If my posts are so terrible you should do with them what you do with objective facts and concrete dialog; put them on your ignore list.

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I am sorry did I miss your facts inbetween your dialog of, your opinion dont mean .... cause your not old like me and you have never owned a bike? Which is about as false and as speculative as you could get.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I am sorry did I miss your facts inbetween your dialog of, your opinion dont mean .... cause your not old like me and you have never owned a bike? Which is about as false and as speculative as you could get.

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What's that sound I hear in the distance, coming closer and closer to Dubby's abode? It the Waaaahhhmbulance!