I’ve said I read everything you write as if it were the word of God. Given the All Might was responsible for all things in the Universe, I’d also have to lay the creation of Lucifer at His feet.
Its not every day I disagree with one of your takes, this is a rare occasion indeed. So, as you said, you outlined some reasons in the Silverstone race thread, so I’ll import that post here, then go back to the post you wrote in this thread.
From your post in the Silverstone thread:
Shelving for a moment the complexity of how systems interact, I’ve isolated it as you have also for the benefit of examining your assertion that the M1 Yamaha has surpassed the Honda RC213V in overall performance because: 1. RC213V aggressive power delivery 2. The new Softer carcass tyre.
First of all, there are many points I agree with you, one is certainly that the Honda RC2
12V was the best bike coming off 2011. How could we know? Well, one way might be to look at the record of HRC riders: 13 wins out of 17, 3 of the top 4 classified in year end points were on the Honda, and the eventual title winner won by 90 points, some several races before season end. Is this relevant? Well, I have attempted to make a similar case for this year’s evolution of the RC213V vs the M1 in terms of track record, much of it has been dismissed. The overwhelming numbers so far point to the RCV being the better overall machine. We can talk all day about how the bikes ‘appear’ on track during ‘recent’ events based on who’s at the controls, but as Nicky famously said, ‘the numbers don’t lie’.
Now if we based our conclusion solely on the slow motion footage between
last year’s Lorenzo-Yamaha vs Stoners-Honda, we might make a different assumption, that is, we would find more cases of Stoner riding fast and lose to Lorenzo’s fast and tight. Notwithstanding, we agree last year’s better machine was the RC212V. Why do I use this logic? Because Stoner’s riding style is lose and pronounced while Lorenzo’s is smooth and flowing (I’ll come back to this point, as you beat me to the punch by brining up Max Biaggi).
Here was Casey’s first impression on the RC2
13V, the new HRC bike for 2012.
“The braking point seems to be stronger, stability in the front going into the corner seems to be very good, and of course we want to understand how the power delivery is, and it is very smooth so no problem.” CS
Based on his 2011 record, one wouldn’t think the RCV could be improved, but yet, that was Casey’s first impression--better this better that. Admittedly, this was prior to using the new tire he tired at the British GP last weekend. So his record on the “stiffer carcass” tire saw Stoner dominate testing (though its amazingly being dismissed on this thread), win 2 of the first 4 races and dominate practices. On top of that, keep in mind his protests were in reference to the ‘new’ “front” tire, yet it was the rear tire that he cited as the problem at Silverstone (again, the first time he had used the ‘newest’ tire.) For those who may not have been following, there have been two new tires.
In a most sublime weekend of my life, I was privy to your extensive racing video catalog, which you have on demand at your finger tips. Your new 42” screen is most likely protesting its new workload. One of many things you and I have in common is we will watch the racing over and over again to pick up on nuance here and there. Unlike you however, I get the motogp.com feed with its commentators, while you get the Eurosport feed (I think the same video) the only difference being, the commentators (perhaps my disadvantage among many to you). Here is an assignment, watch the Catalunya GP again while in mute mode (do the same for the British GP). Focus on the stability of the Hondas vs the Yamahas (including the satellite machines).
The Catalan GP is particularly suited for this comparison, as there is a procession of Yamaha followed by a Honda and so on most of the race. What I found is that the stability of the Yamaha is not that much different to the Honda if you consider two things: the number of occurrences that one observed either machine out of shape into/out of corners, and the stability of either machine tied to the particular rider at the controls.
What’s also great about the Cat GP is that you will get to see both factory Yamahas in close proximity to Pedrosa. In the opening laps, Ben Spies hounds Pedrosa very briefly, you will detect both bikes slightly out of shape in almost identical fashion in turn 3, but I count three times to Pedrosa’s once in the first lap. See Spies’ bike get out of shape going into and out of the straight lap one while Pedrosa’s is planted. Also notice the superior acceleration out of the RCV. Again, in lap two you should detect Spies’ bike out of shape going into the front straight, while Pedrosa’s looks out of shape into the braking of turn one. Now that’s about the end of Spies, but then we take up the comparison of Pedro’s bike and Lorenzo’s. You can immediately contrast Lorenzo going into the straight planted as good as Pedros after Spies’ incident. Give a thought for a moment what you saw with Spies vs Lorenzo. After they replay Stoner going wide, compare Pedro and Lorenzo going into the back straight, again, Lorenzo looks planted to Spies unsettled, then turn your attention off the back straight, both in the braking look almost identical, that is, slight movement on both the M1 and RCV bikes. At the end of that lap, you will see a bit of a wobble from Pedrosa off turn 13, Lorenzo however is planted and stable. That is the same area where Spies looks unsettled. Then the coverage does a fantastic job of zooming in on both riders down the straight. Lorenzo comes out of the slip stream and shows Pedro a wheel. Notice Pedro’s braking superbly to make turn one, does that bike look to be having braking or stability issues? No what so ever. The camera follows them and then goes into an onboard shot looking back at Lorenzo. Here you can really appreciate the entry of Lorenzo vs the acceleration advantage of Pedrosa.
Now I can go on and on talking about a corner by corner analysis, but here I’ve probably lost all our audience, unless you are reading this with the remote in had watching the laps; but you get the picture. Near the latter stages of the race, keep on eye on Cal and Dovi, see their bikes out of shape compared to Lorenzo (all on M1s)? Might that have to do something with Lorenzo’s style of riding? It’s a Lorenzo staple engraved in his levers to reminds us all if it wasn’t apparent enough on the track, the man is smooth as butter. You will also notice that Pedros eventually passes Lorenzo and holds the advantage for a while. Lorenzo seems to momentarily run wide and lets Pedros get bit of a lead. Then what happens? Lorenzo again concentrates on perfect laps, a hallmark that has become his. It looks to be a close battle then Pedrosa has an unexpected wheelie and Lorenzo gets by to take lead and Pedro dials it back. I observed two riders both on excellent machines, trading blow for blow, the machine under them was of no consequence to the eventual result. The difference? The rider.
A Repsol Honda representative complaining about the cards they’ve been deal while saying they were not complaining? Hahaha. More fuel for the conspiracy that Honda is the victim of tire shenanigans. Honda just got the Rookie Rule over turned. I think they wield more than enough power in GP. If it really is Casey’s attitude to just soldier on without mention of it, well then, he seems hard pressed not to mention it every time a mic is strategically placed in front of him. Regarding Pedro, he’s about where anybody of his talent would be on the best bike in the world, behind Stoner & Lorenzo, while the rest sequestered on Factory Ducati. As I said, I take little to no stock in Pedro’s complaints. He might as well blame the color of his rims for not beating Stoner or Lorenzo. The song all have been singing, from HRC: Naka, Suppo, Stoner, to Pedros has been identical, it started with the odd pronouncement that Yamaha was better than them. I thought a very odd strategy, but they’ve all managed to stay on message.
These are interesting point, because its exactly what I would say to you to make a case for the RCV vs M1, namely the difference you observe has more to do with Lorenzo making the Yamaha look so “smooth” and stable. I would invite you to take a closer look through a telescope while aboard the International Space Station (ISS). Not sure where you sat to enjoy the race, as I understand Wilski became a casualty of his Crutchlowesk injury and settle for the Luffield stands. But if you are interested, cue up the BritGP, take a look at Spies’ bike slightly unsettled coming out of the loop, then Stoner closing up on Spies at the end of the Old Club straight in the second lap. Does that front tire look to be a problem under braking for the RCV? Not at all. After-all, this is the tire Casey and Pedro don’t like (that is, the ‘new’ of the new front tire options.) You will observe Stoner’s rear unsettle through Woodcote in this lap. Btw, the temptations would be to blame Spies for destroying his tire going into lap three, yet it was Lorenzo who set the fastest lap at this point, so who would likely be using up his tires? Conventional wisdom would point to Lorenzo.
All the riders had the softer option rear except Rossi. This lap you see Spies struggle to get his M1 stopped and turned, while Casey makes up ground on the brakes, again, that new front tire looking good for him. Now take a look at Spies’ bike get unsettled through Leffield. Which of the two lead bikes looks more planted? Answer: Casey’s RCV. Lucky for us the camera then puts Lorenzo on the screen, how does his M1 look? Planted and Stable. Stoner then pops out again as if to show Spies a wheel, again under braking (front tire). There is a great helicopter (ISS) shot down the Hanger straight that shows just what an acceleration advantage the RCV has to the M1. Which of the two lead bikes looks more unsettled at Stowe? The Spies M1 not Stoner’s RCV. Now for those that said a one fast lap in qual isn’t an indication of the forces the tires must endure, well, they’ll need to get around the fact that the leaders were pacing faster than qualifying (admittedly, it’s still the first half of the race). Spies pushes on the next lap, and I think its here where he starts to have rear tire durability issues. It reminded me of what Dovi said, that one could destroy the tire in a couple laps if one was so inclined. Its here where it unravels for Spies, Stoner gets through when Spies struggles to get his bike stopped and turned. But how is Lorenzo doing in comparison? Charging up the field (again conventional wisdom would mean he is using up his tires), the man would eventually contests for the lead.
5 laps down, 15 to go, and it appears either Spies is holding up the Baustista, Hayden, and Lorenzo trio, or is Casey pushing for a gap? If Casey is pushing, is the RCV shredding his tires or is he mismanaging them? Lorenzo gets through on Hayden who appears to be having tire issues similar to Spies at this point. What we can observe here are the two factory M1s in the same camera shot. Excellent for us to compare. Its here that you can observe the tale of two riders aboard the same machine known for its “stability and agility”. What you will see is Spies’ bike stepping out and unsettled out of Copse, while Lorenzo is planted putting pressure on Baustista. You can see this into and through the Becketts/Maggots, pay particular attention to the tighter line Lorenzo can take through Chapel. Again, both on M1s. And what is Stoner doing at this moment? Eking out a little gap. Now on this lap (6) take a good look at Stoner on that left hand turn (can’t remember name, it the 4[sup]th[/sup] turn after Abbey.), anyway, at the end of that long but tight left hander, check out Stoner’s exit. That is characteristic of Stoner’s style, rear bias, loosey goosey. What might that do to his rear tire? Anyway, Lorenzo goes around the outside of Bautista and makes quick work of Spies in the next few corners. I could go on and on pointing out Lorenzo’s smooth, calculated, settled, approach that is easier on the tires than either his M1 teammate or his RCV rival, but your comments above make the point better than my play by play of the race, that is, Lorenzo is “Mr. Smooth & Captain Consistency”. Does that make his M1 better than the RCV?
Again, you seem to be making my case. Its interesting that you bring up Max Biaggi, because that is exactly the person I would point out to make the case that a rider can make a machine appear a certain way. Saying the M1 is “planted, smooth, and stable” therefore concluding its superiority to the RCV, is similar to saying the RSV4 looks “smooth and stable” under Biaggi. I’m not disputing the M1 has these characteristics as it hallmarks of design, but is it enough to declare it superior to the RCV? Catalunya and Silverstone allow for these sweeping lines because the track is particularly wide, but I agree, their styles of sweeping entries are similar (Julian Ryder mentioned and described them as you have “250-esque”), but more to the point, does this prove the M1 is better than the RCV because this guy appears “smoother” than their rival who have a decidedly contrasting style?
Ok, a bit off topic since this was taken from the Silverstone post race thread, but since I have the time (as you can see from the novel I’m writing here) I’ll offer a little comment. So, tangent time: I became aware of Cal in WSS. Then more so in WSBK. I can’t really say I was impressed, but then again, I wasn’t paying particular attention to him. I don’t think he deserved a seat in MotoGP based on his results in Wsbk. Based on his result this year, I was wrong. I think there is value when somebody takes a particular interesting in a rider, because its through this scrutiny that one can better assess the results, so he made you look like a genius (as if we need more proof of your mental prowess and racing insight). I can’t say I was particularly impressed with Cal last year either, struggling to beat a Ducati rookie on the worst Ducati for the honor of Rookie of the Year. But this year has been a complete revelation. As I said, the ride of the Brit GP event was certainly Cal’s, but lets not forget, it was suppose to be a ride for the podium. And as you say below, “the sport is replete with hard fuckers”, you can add Cal to that illustrious list.
Back to Lorenzo, I wasn’t a fan of his in the lower categories, though I was very aware of the man. I don’t like clowns, I think it lacks sportsmanship. But oddly enough, when he did this in MotoGP, I was ammused because it bothered the Yellow Army. Ah, the irony. Haha Regarding, his riding in the lower classes, he was aggressive, but put in the results to be worthy of accolades.
Ok, back on topic. I disagree, for the reasons I have outlined above, but there will be more to come. But even here, you say it’s the preferred execution’s tool. I suppose I could lose a fight against a knife thrower while I holster my gun, but I’d rather take the gun and go with the odds. Again, the three steps on the podium have been occupied by the RCV much more so than the M1 so far. That the M1 appears to be more stable must be coupled with the reality of the man behind the controls, I think you said it better yourself, in the hands of Lorenzo.
Again, off topic, but I’m sitting here chilling sipping on purified water (still on my diet) thinking about the possibility of going back to Silverstone and all the bliss that would surely accompany such a trip. So, lets go off on another tangent wh my friend… Yes, again, gutsy ride by Cal. Its not every day I take bitter sweet pleasure wrapped with frustration when Nicky gets passed. But given the fact Cal was riding like this at home, just made me happy for all my Brit friends. I’m not ready to accept Spies move out of the way for Cal’s twice blunder turned heroics at Silverstone, but if he continues in this form, I’d pick Cal over Dovi for that seat. I’m also not ready to accept Rossi is just ‘cruising around’ unlike his teammate, the Cruising Caretaker (ah, the irony). I think VR pushed well enough and that crash into Vale shows it for whatever it worth. Rossi took a gamble on tires, the only one to go with the harder option. Casey Stoner once made a major gamble like this too on this unpredictable weather Island, remember everybody gave him .... for it? If it would have rained, the Duc riders would have looked like geniuses taking the rain tire on, same last weekend, had the conditions favored a hard tire, we might have saw VR charge past a field struggling on shredded tires. Given that many did actually struggle with tire wear, its not a gamble that was made without some insight I suppose. And who can predict the weather in the UK anyway?
I'll reply to your post on this thread later tonight.
