Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

michaelm · Jun 20, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
Really? All I read is ducati sucks rossi cant develop the bike. But then I say the same about a bike that was good and show evidence of stoner making bikes go backward and you say false! But have no evidence or proof beside rossi and ducati suck.

Really? As I have said, perspective is all in these matters, unless one or both of us is dyslexic and/or visually impaIred. All that I read are replies to your assertions that stoner couldn't develop/...... up the ducati in which it is contended that rossi/ burgess haven't been able to develop the ducati either (not very arguably with much greater resources and much more say than stoner ever had), and after those of your ilk (and burgess himself) saying they would be able to fix the thing rapidly prior to the 2011 season.

In any case, if rossi is a better developer than stoner as seems likely then he is a better developer. There is a cup for that sort of thing, called the manufacturers championship, which is I am sure a very worthy thing, but has never held my interest. What we do mostly discuss on here is the riders' championship, which stoner has won twice by riding rather well, regardless of whether others including valentino have won more championships and been excellent over a longer period of time. For reasons which elude me this is something you and others continue to seek to deny and attribute to bike advantages, which I never did for valentino's 2008 and 2009 championships and won't do for jorge's likely 2012 championship. And yes it is hypocritical for fans of stoner to complain about lorenzo having a bike advantage which jumkie has attempted to elicit by starting this thread, but no more so (from my point of view much less so) than fans of valentino rossi squealing about stoner having bike advantages particularly in 2007, which from a different perspective than yours is when this merry-go-round started.

Goatboy · Jun 20, 2012

michaelm said:
An hypothesis to which you are entitled, if you can also encompass the odd coincidence of the championship wins by the 2007 ducati and 2011 honda being immediately followed by major changes to the tyres.

Stop trying to take away from Stoner's championship wins!!

michaelm · Jun 20, 2012

Goatboy said:
Stop trying to take away from Stoner's championship wins!!

I make no claim to being unbiased myself, and this was in a discussion regarding stoner's development abilities rather than the merits of championships won by him or others. My evidence for changes in tyres affecting the development of both the current honda and the ducati post 2007 is that both ducati and honda have said this is the case, including ducati after stoner was no longer with them. I guess they would say that, but stoner himself has not said so to my knowledge; he seems not to be disposed to criticise teams or equipment suppliers to whom he is currently contracted, which some, obviously likely deluded about his character, might call professional ethics.

Not a lot of doubt that all championships have been won by riders utilising equipment capable of winning the championship. As I have said if there is an interesting discussion on this theme imo it is the championships won by riders definitely not on the best bike or the championships most attributable to the rider; to your 2004 yamaha world championship I would counterpoint the 2007 ducati world championship.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 20, 2012

michaelm said:
Really? As I have said, perspective is all in these matters, unless one or both of us is dyslexic and/or visually impaIred. All that I read are replies to your assertions that stoner couldn't develop/...... up the ducati in which it is contended that rossi/ burgess haven't been able to develop the ducati either (not very arguably with much greater resources and much more say than stoner ever had), and after those of your ilk (and burgess himself) saying they would be able to fix the thing rapidly prior to the 2011 season.

In any case, if rossi is a better developer than stoner as seems likely then he is a better developer. There is a cup for that sort of thing, called the manufacturers championship, which is I am sure a very worthy thing, but has never held my interest. What we do mostly discuss on here is the riders' championship, which stoner has won twice by riding rather well, regardless of whether others including valentino have won more championships and been excellent over a longer period of time. For reasons which elude me this is something you and others continue to seek to deny and attribute to bike advantages, which I never did for valentino's 2008 and 2009 championships and won't do for jorge's likely 2012 championship. And yes it is hypocritical for fans of stoner to complain about lorenzo having a bike advantage which jumkie has attempted to elicit by starting this thread, but no more so (from my point of view much less so) than fans of valentino rossi squealing about stoner having bike advantages particularly in 2007, which from a different perspective than yours is when this merry-go-round started.

Show me where casey has had positive effects on the bikes he has ridden? I showed his wins which decrease every year he stays with a manufacturer. Thats all. Are Burgess and Rossi doing a ...... job right now? Yes. But they have track record at two other manufaturers that show they can develop a bike well. You guys will never be able to prove me wrong. Because his numbers at the end of this year will still show what I am saying and he will be gone to the farm. You will understand in a few years neo bops.

And as for 2007 I said the bike was a rocketship. It was way more powerful than all the other bikes by far. He would blast by people like they were standing still. But he exploited the bikes power and speed into a winner that year. As the other bikes caught up he sat on his ... running the occasional hot lap and then back on his ... he would sit. He should have been running laps, giving his team data to use. Bit him in the ... his whole career.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
Show me where casey has had positive effects on the bikes he has ridden? I showed his wins which decrease every year he stays with a manufacturer. Thats all. Are Burgess and Rossi doing a ...... job right now? Yes. But they have track record at two other manufaturers that show they can develop a bike well. You guys will never be able to prove me wrong. Because his numbers at the end of this year will still show what I am saying and he will be gone to the farm. You will understand in a few years neo bops.

And as for 2007 I said the bike was a rocketship. It was way more powerful than all the other bikes by far. He would blast by people like they were standing still. But he exploited the bikes power and speed into a winner that year. As the other bikes caught up he sat on his ... running the occasional hot lap and then back on his ... he would sit. He should have been running laps, giving his team data to use. Bit him in the ... his whole career.

I personally have never said that rossi/jb have ...... up the ducati/at ducati. My consistent contention has been that the thing was undevelopable.

It looks likely to me as it does to you that casey won't win the 2012 world championship, and to a lesser extent that he +/- honda won't solve the chatter problem this year, but neither has actually happened as yet, so as one prone to criticising "neoboppers" for getting ahead of themselves perhaps you should give some care to the transparent walls of the house in which you reside. This is also as has been pointed out the first year of a completely new formula (or formulae actually), apparently of great relevance in 2007 but not now.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 20, 2012

michaelm said:
I personally have never said that rossi/jb have ...... up the ducati/at ducati. My consistent contention has been that the thing was undevelopable.

It looks likely to me as it does to you that casey won't win the 2012 world championship, and to a lesser extent that he +/- honda won't solve the chatter problem this year, but neither has actually happened as yet, so as one prone to criticising "neoboppers" for getting ahead of themselves perhaps you should give some care to the transparent walls of the house in which you reside. This is also as has been pointed out the first year of a completely new formula (or formulae actually), apparently of great relevance in 2007 but not now.

Good take on the ducati!

Your right I am being over critical. He could still help resolve the issues with the honda he could still win the championship, but he cant match last season. Maybe I am not being over critical and that a lot of the neo's are being over sensitive. Not you Micm I have total respect for you arguments.

mh_kingcobra · Jun 20, 2012

In my opinion the path that Yamaha took towards transferring into the 1000cc was much more easier than Honda.

1) the 800cc Yamaha was a smooth bike and had a lot of Jorge's butter but it didn't had sufficient Jorge's hammer. So what they needed to do to beat the Honda was some more hammer and with the engine capacity change it came to them automatically.

2) the 800cc Honda was a powerful bike and had a little bit of handling and stability to continue the season on the top. With the engine capacity change Honda's powerful engine became more powerful but with the tire change and the weight limit thing the stability got ...... and right now here is the situation the both manufacturers are in:

Yamaha: A focused, consistent and smooth Rider with a smooth powerful bike (the great combination of Butter hand Hammer that Jorge always wanted)

Honda: Two fast on the limit riders and an uncontrollable beast with a ...... up handling. One rider is pissed off about the Management and wants to leave, another one is being a ..... and not pushing the 1000cc like the 800cc because of his "mid season injury ....... the whole season" illness.

So unfortunately: While Jorge is on his dream bike catching points, the two Repsol boys are struggling for more stability.

It seams that the "Butter to Hammer transformation" is much easier than the "Hammer to Butter transformation".

Zootalaws · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
All the best riders have switched brands multiple times. Show me a champion rider who hasn't done the same.

Wayne Rainey

Kevin Schwantz

Kenny Roberts

Wayne Gardner

Mick Doohan

To name but five... I am sure there are more.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
Show me where casey has had positive effects on the bikes he has ridden? I showed his wins which decrease every year he stays with a manufacturer. Thats all. Are Burgess and Rossi doing a ...... job right now? Yes. But they have track record at two other manufaturers that show they can develop a bike well. You guys will never be able to prove me wrong. Because his numbers at the end of this year will still show what I am saying and he will be gone to the farm. You will understand in a few years neo bops.

And as for 2007 I said the bike was a rocketship. It was way more powerful than all the other bikes by far. He would blast by people like they were standing still. But he exploited the bikes power and speed into a winner that year. As the other bikes caught up he sat on his ... running the occasional hot lap and then back on his ... he would sit. He should have been running laps, giving his team data to use. Bit him in the ... his whole career.

Show us all where (other than in your fevered imagination) it is the responsibility of the rider to engineer the bike. This whole business of which rider is the "best developer of bikes" is something Rossi-Fans created in their constant hagiographies of their beloved. I've been following this sport since '79 and never was any rider hailed or critiqued for being the best guy at talking to the engineers. This whole talking point is utter internet-Bopper ......... When Spencer won he took responsibility for the riding and Erv Kanemoto too responsibility for the bike. The rider says: hey I have chatter, can you fix it?, or the seat is a little too close to the front, can you adjust it? Or what can we do to make it less peaky at 10,000 RPM? etc The rider gives feedback then it's the job of the engineer to come up with a solution.

I repeat: the whole business of who is the best developer of bikes is a totally fallacious Bopper-fabricated talking point. STFU already with this crap.I

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

Wayne Rainey

Kevin Schwantz

Kenny Roberts

Wayne Gardner

Mick Doohan

Rainey rode for Kawasaki and Honda before going to Yamaha just for starters.

Roberts first race was on a Kawasaki H1R

Wayne Gardner started on a Yamaha TZ250

Doohan started out racing Yamaha TZ250s and RZ500s

Schwantz started out racing supercross and not as I recall on a Suzuki.

Do your homework muppet.

michaelm · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
Wayne Rainey

Kevin Schwantz

Kenny Roberts

Wayne Gardner

Mick Doohan

Rainey rode for Kawasaki and Honda before going to Yamaha just for starters. Do your homework muppet.

To say nothing of agostini, hailwood, lawson, krjr, rossi, stoner, and hayden, as well as duke and surtees (the latter two I suspected but checked on google). (EDIT Barry sheene and freddie spencer also).

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

The whole brand loyalty thing is another non-starter bogus talking point used to diffuse and distract from pertinent discussion of the matter at hand. It's like when the GOP want to divert attention to their disasterous banking and foreign policy and they start yelping about gay marriage and abortion to distract the bigoted soap opera-watching pinheads whose lives are so devoid of meaning that meddling in the lives of others is required to to give their own lives the illusion of significance.

Brand loyalty is horseshit. Nothing is quite as insipid as a person who takes sanctimonious pride in that fact that they wear Puma sneakers exclusively. Who really cares?

Riders switch tire makers, electronics, suspension etc constantly. Whatever works. It's not like cheating on your wife.

michaelm · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
The whole brand loyalty thing is another non-starter bogus talking point used to diffuse and distract from pertinent discussion of the matter at hand. It's like when the GOP want to divert attention to their disasterous banking and foreign policy and they start yelping about gay marriage and abortion to distract the bigoted soap opera-watching pinheads whose lives are so devoid of meaning that meddling in the lives of others is required to to give their own lives the illusion of significance.

Brand loyalty is horseshit. Nothing is quite as insipid as a person who takes sanctimonious pride in that fact that they wear Puma sneakers exclusively. Who really cares?

Riders switch tire makers, electronics, suspension etc constantly. Whatever works. It's not like cheating on your wife.

Absolutely. Pretty reasonable to call krsr and rainey yamaha guys, doohan and gardner honda guys, and kevin schwantz (advisedly or not) a suzuki guy though, imo.

Mick D · Jun 21, 2012

Jumkie said:
what manufacture consistently toped all the tests? Here is a hint: Honda.

BBSB kinda said what I was thinking...

BBSB said:
That doesn't mean much. Especially when we're talking about the "fastest guy in GP" putting in a qualifying lap in the cooler conditions of the day just to see his name on top of the timesheets (Stoner was always like that). And of course that was testing, not a qualifying session - most of the grid were probably more focused on improving the bike for the race than worring about topping the timesheets. And even if you consider the Honda to be best over one lap, being fast in one lap is one thing, being fast over a race distance is another... and that's where the works Honda machines are having the most trouble due to 2012 tires not suiting the machine and it got much worse with the latest tire change in Silverstone.

There are 2 reasons that I can think of why you see a double repsol honda podium at most races this season despite Yamaha having the best bikes.

The first one is that Honda have the 2 fastest riders in the world (Stoner is the fastest, Pedro is AT LEAST as fast as Jorge) IMO.

The second is that Spies (and his crew) is not delivering anywhere near the results his bike is capable of. If he did, you would see Yamaha with the most podium spots, not Honda.

At silverstone the repsol boys were again lucky that the tech 3's screwed up. If Dovi didn't bite the dust and Cal not injured himself on sat. and of course if Ben performed like he should, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Yam 1, 2, 3, 4 in the race.

Jum I just don't see how topping the timesheets in preseason, practice or qualifying means anything at all... That is Casey's forte after all. From what I have observed this season Yamaha has brought the more complete package to the races (so far) this year. Although they have very different skill sets I rate Jorge and Casey as more or less equivalent and Pedders a step behind - kinda what the race results are showing. Ben is probably a small step behind Pedders but is having a less-than-fortunate start to his season, I do expect this to improve.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
Show us all where (other than in your fevered imagination) it is the responsibility of the rider to engineer the bike. This whole business of which rider is the "best developer of bikes" is something Rossi-Fans created in their constant hagiographies of their beloved. I've been following this sport since '79 and never was any rider hailed or critiqued for being the best guy at talking to the engineers. This whole talking point is utter internet-Bopper ......... When Spencer won he took responsibility for the riding and Erv Kanemoto too responsibility for the bike. The rider says: hey I have chatter, can you fix it?, or the seat is a little too close to the front, can you adjust it? Or what can we do to make it less peaky at 10,000 RPM? etc The rider gives feedback then it's the job of the engineer to come up with a solution.

I repeat: the whole business of who is the best developer of bikes is a totally fallacious Bopper-fabricated talking point. STFU already with this crap.I

.... you, its my opinion am I am entitle to it. Your so full of .... keshav. Have you never noticed the long conversation every rider has when they gets of the bike with their crew? What are they talking about? Whats for dinner and whos umbrella girl is hottest? Let me give you some help. They are talking about the bike and how it got on with track. This info then gets written down, crazy right? And makes its way to the engineers to help development make changes ect. What the .... do you think? The riders just ride and the developers just develop blindly with no information from the riders. And if the rider sucks at translating the info from track to crew, then well what doe the crew have to go of.

Really keshav .... off, I have shown evidence coinciding with my opinion. I ask again where is yours? As usually you go straight to belittling and boppers this and bopper. Oh thats right you have been watching since '79 so you must be right.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

michaelm said:
Absolutely. Pretty reasonable to call krsr and rainey yamaha guys, doohan and gardner honda guys, and kevin schwantz (advisedly or not) a suzuki guy though, imo.

No argument here. But to say any of them were loyal only to one brand throughout their career's is not factual.

Roberts only got with Yamaha in the early days because Harley wasn't interested in him. And his work with Proton

also undercuts the fallacy of mindless allegiance to Yamaha.

Mick D · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
No argument here. But to say any of them were loyal only to one brand throughout their career's is not factual.

Roberts only got with Yamaha in the early days because Harley wasn't interested in him. And his work with Proton

also undercuts the fallacy of mindless allegiance to Yamaha.

Actually Proton and Yamaha are very close relatives in SE Asia... Proton started their auto/moto biz in the early 80's with Yamaha leased technology if I remember correctly.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
.... you, its my opinion am I am entitle to it. Your so full of .... keshav. Have you never noticed the long conversation every rider has when they gets of the bike with their crew? What are they talking about? Whats for dinner and whos umbrella girl is hottest? Let me give you some help. They are talking about the bike and how it got on with track. This info then gets written down, crazy right? And makes its way to the engineers to help development make changes ect. What the .... do you think? The riders just ride and the developers just develop blindly with no information from the riders. And if the rider sucks at translating the info from track to crew, then well what doe the crew have to go of.

Really keshav .... off, I have shown evidence coinciding with my opinion. I ask again where is yours? As usually you go straight to belittling and boppers this and bopper. Oh thats right you have been watching since '79 so you must be right.

You are welcome to your opinion - tho it's worthless because you cannot back it up with facts. When you have actual facts that shore up your opinion let me know. In your opinion - you are witty and knowledable - but the facts don't back that up. You can repeat ........ an infinite number of times but it remains ......... Your opinions are like the lipstick on a pig. They don't fool anyone. It is your god given right to be state nonsense. Nobody can take that away from you.

Forget that I raced with my own endurance racing team. I also worked as a crew member for several AMA Camel Pro riders before I started racing so I actually might have a better idea of what goes on between a rider and his crew than some guy who rides BMX and has never even owned an actual motorcycle.

As to the use of the epithet Bopper .... you hardly have room to complain. You attack Barry (whose knowledge of bikes and racing outstrips yours a million to one) with all kinds of really over the top insults and grotesque invective. So stop being such a ......

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

Mick D said:
Actually Proton and Yamaha are very close relatives in SE Asia... Proton started their auto/moto biz in the early 80's with Yamaha leased technology if I remember correctly.

Yes... and as I recall in the '70s Harleys started having Kehin carbs and and Japanese electronics - but they were not Hondas.

I have some cute cousins in California, with whom I have a close relationship - but we've never produced any offspring.

MigsAngel · Jun 21, 2012

Mick D said:
BBSB kinda said what I was thinking...

Jum I just don't see how topping the timesheets in preseason, practice or qualifying means anything at all... That is Casey's forte after all. From what I have observed this season Yamaha has brought the more complete package to the races (so far) this year. Although they have very different skill sets I rate Jorge and Casey as more or less equivalent and Pedders a step behind - kinda what the race results are showing. Ben is probably a small step behind Pedders but is having a less-than-fortunate start to his season, I do expect this to improve .

LOL....Really?

How many wins or podiums does Spies have on the factory yamaha in 2011 and 2012?......And Perdrosa on the Honda?

Spies on the best bike in the paddock is in last place of the non-CRT riders.....Pedrosa is 3rd in title....

Spies at the moment is a step behind Barbera....I do too expect Ben to improve, but will he actualy deliver on the proven potential of the bike?.....AKA win win win....

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