Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

Barry, it was as stupid answer to a complex issue. Chatter is revererated through all of the bike. Not just to the hands, that was my point.

BarryMachine said:

Stoner developed Ducati .......... 23 wins



Rossi developed Ducati ............. oh ZERO





you don't really have any point whatsoever there Mdub, cos you are implying a totally fallacy.



Nobody developed the Ducati as well as Stoner



and the same can be said for the Honda.



Unless you are not counting results as whether or not the bike is more successful?



You being a bopper its pretty much assumed that you believe Stoner can not develop a bike because he beats the .... out of Rossi

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'07 10 wins

'08 6 wins

'09 4 wins

''10 3 wins



'11 10 wins

'12 2 so far.



Evidence. Something you know nothing about. I need to go no further than this to prove stoner cannot develop a bike. In fact as I said he makes the bike worse because he has no idea what a good set-up is.

michaelm said:

As I said , saying someone won because they had the best bike is always an excuse, particularly when talking honda vs yamaha, and will be/is if applied to stoner this year as well.



To address your point seriously re stoner's development skills, or lack thereof, I don't and didn't say that no case can be made for it.



Imo it is virtually impossible to ride a bike conventionally better than jorge is doing at the moment, as was the case with rossi at his best for many years but particularly in years like 2008. It is entirely possible rossi could still ride the yamaha like that now, although I have doubts concerning whether his crew could match it with jorge's now. Remove any input from stoner, give honda an unlimited budget, the full time attention of agostini, krsr, lawson, doohan, erv kanomoto and prime jerry burgess and enough time to completely re-design their bike and replicate the yamaha and stoner still couldn't ride it in a conventional fashion on the current tyres as well as jorge. He beat jorge in 2011 and particularly valentino in 2007 by riding bikes with strong power (as you said) in an unconventional fashion which overcame any adverse aspects of the bike, particularly the engine characteristics, which it is apparently well nigh impossible for others to replicate and for which valentino and jorge had no answer no matter how well they rode with the equipment available to them in those years . The latter seemed to infuriate you and others, but I personally thought it was glorious, obviously from the viewpoint of being a stoner fan. Is yamaha's overall design philosophy smarter than yamaha's or ducati's? On the evidence of 5 of the last 8 world championships, soon it would seem likely to be 6 of 9, it would seem so, without discounting the excellence of the riders concerned.



My point though is that it seems stoner's unconventional method relies heavily on a suitable tyre, a tyre like those that the 2007 ducati and the current honda were designed around, without any input from him in the case of the ducati and probably not much in the case of the honda. My question to you is the same as to my friend jumkie (who I realise was mainly taking the urine, as the french say); why couldn't he and/or ducati and honda be allowed to continue to have such a tyre, in 2008 or this year? No-one has said jorge shouldn't be allowed to have the tyre that suits him. And why should honda have to totally discard their design because of an overnight change in the tyres?. If the control tyre was brought in to save money as is claimed, how does making the bike designs of honda, and ducati, suzuki and kawasaki before them, obsolete achieve this? People with allegiances as disparate from mine as roger and talpa seem to agree with me on the control tyre issue.



I am not saying he would necessarily be beating jorge even if he had a tyre more to his and honda's preference either.

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Great post man! I agree the control tire sucks. I have said before they should atleast develop a tire for each manufacturer. But they dont, and everyone must develop around the same tire. And if your two riders are not strong sert-up and development riders, then the teasm is in trouble.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Great post man! I agree the control tire sucks. I have said before they should atleast develop a tire for each manufacturer. But they dont, and everyone must develop around the same tire. And if your two riders are not strong sert-up and development riders, then the teasm is in trouble.

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This is a straw man argument. Look at the state of the Ducati after more than a season. I don't see any Boppers blaming Rossi.

So how is the state of the Honda the responsibility of Stoner and Pedrosa?



Despite all the resources thrown at the Ducati in the last 15 months it still sucks ....



The Honda on the other hand has been ridden to multiple podiums and worked

well until BS withdrew the tire around which Honda developed the chassis.

Moreover there are far more podiums for Honda than Ducati in 2012.

Keshav said:

This is a straw man argument. Look at the state of the Ducati after more than a season. I don't see any Boppers blaming Rossi.

So how is the state of the Honda the responsibility of Stoner and Pedrosa?



Despite all the resources thrown at the Ducati in the last 15 months it still sucks ....



The Honda on the other hand has been ridden to multiple podiums and worked

well until BS withdrew the tire around which Honda developed the chassis.

Moreover there are far more podiums for Honda than Ducati in 2012.

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Well there is a reason that ducati is not one of the options in this thread for best bike. Its ..... We all know that. I dont not blame Rossi. I just feel there is more to blame with the problems at Ducati than Honda because obviously they have a .... ton more problems. They have been doing everything to correct the sinking ship left by Casey. They have been filling holes, building new boats carbon fiber, alum monoques swing arms made of barrys foreskin. I think I saw Hayden with a kitchen sink on the back of his bike one race. Point is they are all over the ....... place. They have no direction at all. Thats the fault of all at ducati past and present. But this thread isnt about the state of the .... duc.

Keshav said:

This is a straw man argument. Look at the state of the Ducati after more than a season. I don't see any Boppers blaming Rossi.

So how is the state of the Honda the responsibility of Stoner and Pedrosa?



Despite all the resources thrown at the Ducati in the last 15 months it still sucks ....



The Honda on the other hand has been ridden to multiple podiums and worked

well until BS withdrew the tire around which Honda developed the chassis.

Moreover there are far more podiums for Honda than Ducati in 2012.

Click to expand...

13723:double.jpg]

Keshav said:

This is a straw man argument. Look at the state of the Ducati after more than a season. I don't see any Boppers blaming Rossi.

So how is the state of the Honda the responsibility of Stoner and Pedrosa?



Despite all the resources thrown at the Ducati in the last 15 months it still sucks ....



The Honda on the other hand has been ridden to multiple podiums and worked

well until BS withdrew the tire around which Honda developed the chassis.

Moreover there are far more podiums for Honda than Ducati in 2012.

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Yamaha/lorenzo may have outsmarted honda in any case, honda have been known to be outsmarted before, and if the yamaha is well suited to a tyre with characteristics developed at the request of a majority of riders last year more power to them. What I don't understand is not only a different version of the new tyre which had already been developed not also being made available, but the old tyre which was OK for the first 5 races being withdrawn. Honda still had chatter on that tyre, but it would last till the end of the race with the current chassis, even with the latterly added weight.



I do call ........ on this all evil stemming from honda stuff. One argument in favour of the CRT concept, well expressed by kropotkin, which I can accept is if it is aimed at breaking the decades long cartel which has existed in premier class racing. As I have said I have no particular brief for honda, other than being happy for them giving riders I have supported bikes with which they could win world championships, which I suspect some of their current detractors were not too unhappy about in 2001, 2002 and 2003 either. But modern gp racing has very much been a cosy duopoly, for yamaha just as much as honda, even if they have perhaps been less arrogant and more subtle about it than honda. They have been equally happy to have what has basically been a honda/yamaha cup. Without looking it up at this hour of the morning in my jet-lagged state, the numbers including agostini's first win for yamaha in 1975 are honda 15, yamaha 15, suzuki 6, ducati 1.

I objectively ticked the Honda box even though I ride a Yamaha.



,a question or point about the preseason testing: Is it possible that Honda had the pin pulled on fuel consumption during testing? We all know that these bike are capable of more, without the mpg choke. While Yamaha chose to test with the restricted mode left on. It could explain why that preseason dominance didn't transfer to the race.



better?

I always thought, even with the 800s, that Honda won the peak power engine war. Even today, It (seems) to look like the Honda can always pass (at least easier) on acceleration vs the Yamaha passes by out breaking. I realize that the rider has a lot to do with that as well. Either way the peaky engine could explain why It's ultimately faster,, but also ultimately shreds the tires sooner.

~so

Honda, better engine,, Yamaha, more friendly handling, Dovi also eluded to the difference in handling between the two.

If/when they dial the electronics in the Honda to help make the tires last, whoever is on the Honda will be tough to beat. While Yamaha's historically softer engine doesn't seem to be getting more peak ponies anytime soon.



2cents

Keshav said:

This is a straw man argument. Look at the state of the Ducati after more than a season. I don't see any Boppers blaming Rossi.

So how is the state of the Honda the responsibility of Stoner and Pedrosa?



Despite all the resources thrown at the Ducati in the last 15 months it still sucks ....



The Honda on the other hand has been ridden to multiple podiums and worked

well until BS withdrew the tire around which Honda developed the chassis.

Moreover there are far more podiums for Honda than Ducati in 2012.

Click to expand...

Your looking at it wrong, it's like the Obama situation. You blame everything on the guy who came before you and ...... everything up, it's gonna take some time to fix.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Well there is a reason that ducati is not one of the options in this thread for best bike. Its ..... We all know that. I dont not blame Rossi. I just feel there is more to blame with the problems at Ducati than Honda because obviously they have a .... ton more problems. They have been doing everything to correct the sinking ship left by Casey. They have been filling holes, building new boats carbon fiber, alum monoques swing arms made of barrys foreskin. I think I saw Hayden with a kitchen sink on the back of his bike one race. Point is they are all over the ....... place. They have no direction at all. Thats the fault of all at ducati past and present. But this thread isnt about the state of the .... duc.

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Nor is the thread about blaming Stoner for issues Honda is having due to the loss of a tire that BS refuses to issue mid-season.



Stoner is a rider - not an engineer. If Stoner is to blame for Honda's woes - then the Goat who you all insist is so good - is doubly responsible for Ducati's problems. You can't have it both ways.



I call ........ on "Stoner deserted a sinking ship". He went with the bike that was most likely to take him to a championship. All the best riders have switched brands multiple times. Show me a champion rider who hasn't done the same.

Keshav said:

Nor is the thread about blaming Stoner for issues Honda is having due to the loss of a tire that BS refuses to issue mid-season.

Stoner is a rider - not an engineer. If Stoner is to blame for Honda's woes - then the Goat who you all insist is so good - is doubly responsible for Ducati's problems. You can't have it both ways.



I call ........ on "Stoner deserted a sinking ship". He went with the bike that was most likely to take him to a championship. All the best riders have switched brands multiple times. Show me a champion rider who hasn't done the same. Your mindless vilification of Stoner is so ....... absurd.

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No my argument was totally on par with this thread. popular or not. You brought Ducati and the goat into it not me.

Keshav said:

This is a straw man argument. Look at the state of the Ducati after more than a season. I don't see any Boppers blaming Rossi.

So how is the state of the Honda the responsibility of Stoner and Pedrosa?



Despite all the resources thrown at the Ducati in the last 15 months it still sucks ....



The Honda on the other hand has been ridden to multiple podiums and worked

well until BS withdrew the tire around which Honda developed the chassis.

Moreover there are far more podiums for Honda than Ducati in 2012.

Click to expand...

hawkdriver said:

Your looking at it wrong, it's like the Obama situation. You blame everything on the guy who came before you and ...... everything up, it's gonna take some time to fix.

Click to expand...

The Ducati was a piece of .... long before Stoner came along. If that's not true - please point out any other MGP championships won on a Ducati other than Stoner's. What? Did you just start following MGP in 2007?

MdubSTYLIE said:

Great post man! I agree the control tire sucks. I have said before they should atleast develop a tire for each manufacturer. But they dont, and everyone must develop around the same tire. And if your two riders are not strong sert-up and development riders, then the teasm is in trouble.

Click to expand...

MdubSTYLIE said:

No my argument was totally on par with this thread. popular or not. You brought Ducati and the goat into it not me.

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Above you are falsely blaming Stoner and Pedrosa for Honda's problems. My reply is a counterpoint showing what hopeless ........ this is.



It's accepted wisdom all 'round that the Honda was great until last minute rule changes increasing the weight of the bikes totally screwed up the delicate balance created by the Honda engineers - and that Stoner was still dominating up until BS stopped supplying around which the Honda chassis was designed. It's that simple.

Keshav said:

Above you are falsely blaming Stoner and Pedrosa for Honda's problems. My reply is a counterpoint showing what hopeless ........ this is.

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Really? All I read is ducati sucks rossi cant develop the bike. But then I say the same about a bike that was good and show evidence of stoner making bikes go backward and you say false! But have no evidence or proof beside rossi and ducati suck.

Keshav said:

The Ducati was a piece of .... long before Stoner came along. If that's not true - please point out any other MGP championships won on a Ducati other than Stoner's. What? Did you just start following MGP in 2007?

Click to expand...

Not as big of piece of .... as after. Fact. It had won some races in the seasons leading up to Stoner. Pedrosa may never win on the honda again due to Stoner being the number one rider. And stoner for sure will never match his first season on honda either, as he did every year at ducati. Also fact.

Keshav said:

The Ducati was a piece of .... long before Stoner came along. If that's not true - please point out any other MGP championships won on a Ducati other than Stoner's. What? Did you just start following MGP in 2007?

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After his championship it all went down hill and now the Honda is going in the same direction. How many other Duc riders have won dry races on the bike before and after CS. His strength is in getting the maximum out of the engine but anytime the others have caught up in engine power he doesn't have as much of an advantage. After the Japanese went to pneumatics he was beat, the formula change to stroke limited 1000's have made the bikes more equal in the engine dept again because of usable power and he's getting beat again. The truth is he know's what the up coming rev limit means for him and he's running away from it. The more equal the bikes the less special he becomes.

hawkdriver said:

After his championship it all went down hill and now the Honda is going in the same direction. How many other Duc riders have won dry races on the bike before and after CS. His strength is in getting the maximum out of the engine but anytime the others have caught up in engine power he doesn't have as much of an advantage. After the Japanese went to pneumatics he was beat, the formula change to stroke limited 1000's have made the bikes more equal in the engine dept again because of usable power and he's getting beat again. The truth is he know's what the up coming rev limit means for him and he's running away from it. The more equal the bikes the less special he becomes.

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....... muppet gibberish.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Really? All I read is ducati sucks rossi cant develop the bike. But then I say the same about a bike that was good and show evidence of stoner making bikes go backward and you say false! But have no evidence or proof beside rossi and ducati suck. Not as big of piece of .... as after. Fact. It had won some races in the seasons leading up to Stoner. Pedrosa may never win on the honda again due to Stoner being the number one rider. And stoner for sure will never match his first season on honda either, as he did every year at ducati. Also fact.

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Really??? What "evidence"? You do know the difference between evidence and hearsay on an internet forum don't you?



You can ignore the know facts and replace them with fantasy - but plain and simple - you are wrong. Stick to making jokes. At least some of them hit the mark.

Jumkie said:

Now I'm starting to read that the Yamaha is the best bike on the grid lately.

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I'm actually a bit surprised it took so long for the majority to realise this. I was one of the few who noted that the M1 is the better package after the Sepang and Jerez tests, just by reading the riders and managers comments.

both HRC boys have been complaining quite a bit lately, one is retiring the other is an ........

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Actually, they've been complaining (same thing: lack of traction, chatter) ever since they tried out the 2012 tires (1st spec) on their 1000 machine at the 2011 Brno test.

HRC was top of the entire preseason testing going into this season.

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That doesn't mean much. Especially when we're talking about the "fastest guy in GP" putting in a qualifying lap in the cooler conditions of the day just to see his name on top of the timesheets (Stoner was always like that). And of course that was testing, not a qualifying session - most of the grid were probably more focused on improving the bike for the race than worring about topping the timesheets. And even if you consider the Honda to be best over one lap, being fast in one lap is one thing, being fast over a race distance is another... and that's where the works Honda machines are having the most trouble due to 2012 tires not suiting the machine and it got much worse with the latest tire change in Silverstone.

So where were Honda? Uhm, both HRC riders were on the podium again, damn. Sound familiar? Well it should, it’s only been true for most the freaking season. And if that were not interesting enough, a Sat Honda came in 4th. Yup, that's right folks; Honda was 2/3 of the podium, 3/4 of the top four, 3/5 of the top five. It doesn't matter how you divide it, its still a favorable ration: advantage Honda.

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There are 2 reasons that I can think of why you see a double repsol honda podium at most races this season despite Yamaha having the best bikes.

The first one is that Honda have the 2 fastest riders in the world (Stoner is the fastest, Pedro is AT LEAST as fast as Jorge) IMO.

The second is that Spies (and his crew) is not delivering anywhere near the results his bike is capable of. If he did, you would see Yamaha with the most podium spots, not Honda.

At silverstone the repsol boys were again lucky that the tech 3's screwed up. If Dovi didn't bite the dust and Cal not injured himself on sat. and of course if Ben performed like he should, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Yam 1, 2, 3, 4 in the race.

So what would make anybody think Yamaha is better than Honda? Certainly the results don't indicate this in any way shape or form. I'd say the only major event that has happened is Stoner has declared his retirement. If they say racing is mostly mental, then I would submit that maybe, just maybe, no disrespect to the man, but perhaps Casey's mind & heart aren’t on the racing as much as Lorenzo?

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Stoner declaring his retirement is not the only major event that has happened. You are underestimating the effect of the sudden minimum weight rule change, the 2012 spec 1 tires and most importantly the 2012 spec 2 tires (from silverstone onwards) which is the worst of them all for the factory hondas by far. In fact, you are not taking that into consideration at all!

This is not like 2011. Until silverstone they could still compete despite the technical issues, but with the latest tire change they have no chance now. Stoner said he was taking big risks in the british GP to finish where he did and that he was not happy about that. And of course the other 'event' is that while Honda went backwards, Yamaha has taken a step forward this season. Power is no longer an issue with the 1000 and they didn't lost their strong points from the past seasons like agility and stability.

You are giving too much importance to Stoner's retirement announcement. I disagree that Stoner's issues with the series and announcing his retirement is having an impact on his performance. Stoner is not the only repsol rider who is struggling. Both he and Pedro are struggling. They have issues in the bike and they are not minor - especially since the change to the latest tires at silverstone.

Yes Jorge is riding superbly and maybe the Honda woes has given him even more motivation but he's been riding like this for a few years now, and he is not the reason Stoner is struggling.



Edit: and Stoner has said he will be doing everything in his power to leave the sport as world champion. I don't doubt his motivation.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Really? All I read is ducati sucks rossi cant develop the bike. But then I say the same about a bike that was good and show evidence of stoner making bikes go backward and you say false! But have no evidence or proof beside rossi and ducati suck.





Not as big of piece of .... as after. Fact. It had won some races in the seasons leading up to Stoner. Pedrosa may never win on the honda again due to Stoner being the number one rider. And stoner for sure will never match his first season on honda either, as he did every year at ducati. Also fact.

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I call utter ........ on all those proclaiming that Stoner is un-developing bikes, especially the Honda. Do you lot even vaguely understand engineering principles? Correlation is not causation. Just because the first year that Stoner got on the Duke and then his first time on the Honda have recently been the best years for those bikes does not imply he is ....... them up.



Obviously Stoner "will never match" last season - he's not in the points lead whereas last year he was at the same point in the season, but what is the point of mentioning this fact? FFS the Honda changed from 800 to 1000 last year, plus all the tyre and weight rule changes since the off season. So Stoner re-designed the engine to add an extra 200 ccs? And the redesign of the chassis to cope with that change? I don't think so.

yamaka46 said:

I call utter ........ on all those proclaiming that Stoner is un-developing bikes, especially the Honda. Do you lot even vaguely understand engineering principles? Correlation is not causation. Just because the first year that Stoner got on the Duke and then his first time on the Honda have recently been the best years for those bikes does not imply he is ....... them up.



Obviously Stoner "will never match" last season - he's not in the points lead whereas last year he was at the same point in the season, but what is the point of mentioning this fact? FFS the Honda changed from 800 to 1000 last year, plus all the tyre and weight rule changes since the off season. So Stoner re-designed the engine to add an extra 200 ccs? And the redesign of the chassis to cope with that change? I don't think so.

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Stoner is history son, last years news.



Good on him for bein the first Kiwi to take the title