Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

Jumkie said:

So far those saying Yamaha is better are presenting as their evidence that Stoner, Pedro, and Honda bosses are complaining about it. Hey, im not winning, its obviously not me.



The rest too chicken to decide either way.

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Lay off the bath salts jum.



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i think there have been more reasons given than the hrc guys complaining.for example hrc having a great duo of riders ,altough i'm sure you'll never admit that



if you want to believe the honda is the best bike thats fine, but you can't discount problems like massive chatter. just look at some slow-mo replays where you can see the exhaust almost shaken off. a bike like that can't be better than one that can't be faulted in any other way than being 5kph slower down the long straights (which IMO really shows how perfect the m1 is)



once the chatter is being dealt with i have no doubt that the honda is just as good,maybe even better than the yamaha

Honda, hey, Yamaha is better. Sheep follow. (I get why Stoner fans say this, but the rest?) So far the FACT is the evidence on the track does not bare out this opinion. So what evidence is there that Honda is not the better bike? NONE. Well except to Honda saying its not, that's a stellar independent claim. (sarcasm)

Jumkie said:

Honda, hey, Yamaha is better. Sheep follow. (I get why Stoner fans say this, but the rest?) So far the FACT is the evidence on the track does not bare out this opinion. So what evidence is there that Honda is not the better bike? NONE. Well except to Honda saying its not, that's a stellar independent claim. (sarcasm)

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It is largely irrelevant which is the best bike, and always has been as far as I am concerned in premier class bike racing. It was hardly ever discussed in the glory days of the 500s, where yamaha and honda were concerned anyway.



If you want to raise the question of who has won on what was definitely not the best bike, that would be more interesting, and probably also a rare occurrence. If you are on a factory honda or yamaha, you are in a fortunate circumstance, unless you are a definitely designated number 2 rider, and should have a bike which is competitive; if not and you are good enough you should arrange to be on the other one or improve the one you are on, which should be within the capacity of either marque.



You seem set on running both sides of this argument, which is below your usual standard of debate.



(EDIT HONDA have not said their bike is bad, which would be rather unprecedented in their corporate history, they have said the rules, specifically those regarding the weight of the bike were changed over a year after they were promulgated and well after the bike was designed, tested and built, and that the new tyres don't suit their riders and /or bike (the first a matter of record, the second something about which it could be considered they might validly hold an opinion), and that they can't see why they can't have tyres that do suit. I basically have a preference for ducati as a marque, and no particular liking for honda, other than being grateful for them providing bikes which enabled 3 australian riders of whom I am or was a fan to win 7 premier class world championships. However, I don't see why a rider winning a single world championship in dominant fashion on one of their bikes, which made two wins out of the last 6 world championships, was an indication of the end of all things and evidence of them being ultimately evil, given the lack of similar reaction to yamaha's 3 successive world championships from 2008 to 2010, the 3 successive dominant world championships by valentino rossi on hondas from 2001 to 2003, the 5 for them by mick doohan, or the 3 by wayne rainey, 3 by eddie lawson and 3 by kenny roberts for yamaha for that matter.)

Jumkie said:

Honda, hey, Yamaha is better. Sheep follow. (I get why Stoner fans say this, but the rest?) So far the FACT is the evidence on the track does not bare out this opinion. So what evidence is there that Honda is not the better bike? NONE. Well except to Honda saying its not, that's a stellar independent claim. (sarcasm)

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well i guess then that most people on this board and even kropo are boners for having the "wrong impression"

Mr.Jumkie, I still didn't participated in the voting but I promise I will vote for Honda ASAP (if you add Honda(without the chatter issue) to the poll!!!)

Jumkie said:

Honda, hey, Yamaha is better. Sheep follow. (I get why Stoner fans say this, but the rest?) So far the FACT is the evidence on the track does not bare out this opinion. So what evidence is there that Honda is not the better bike? NONE. Well except to Honda saying its not, that's a stellar independent claim. (sarcasm)

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Hey dont you turn me into some new age neo bopper jumkie! The honda has issues that is clear, it seems to be going the way of the ducati. Hmmm I wonder what the common denominator is. Maybe its super awesome set-up king sending another company back to the stone age in development.

Mr.Jumkie, I still didn't participated in the voting but I promise I will vote ASAP (if you add Honda(without the chatter issue) to the poll!!!)

MdubSTYLIE said:

The honda has issues that is clear, it seems to be going the way of the ducati. Hmmm I wonder what the common denominator is. Maybe its super awesome set-up king sending another company back to the stone age in development.

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An hypothesis to which you are entitled, if you can also encompass the odd coincidence of the championship wins by the 2007 ducati and 2011 honda being immediately followed by major changes to the tyres.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Hey dont you turn me into some new age neo bopper jumkie! The honda has issues that is clear, it seems to be going the way of the ducati. Hmmm I wonder what the common denominator is. Maybe its super awesome set-up king sending another company back to the stone age in development.

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What evidence to do you have to say the Honda has issues, this coming from a guy who thinks Stoner is a ....., whiners, liar, weak minded? Let me guess, Stoner said the Honda has issues, and you now believe him? hahaha What, talk about ironic. Who else is saying the Honda has issues? Oh yeah, Pedro, the guy getting beat by Stoner. Who else is saying the Honda has issues? Oh yeah, the Honda boss, the guy getting beat by that other Jap manufacture. So Mdub, what evidence do you have for Honda being inferior to Yamaha? And while you struggle to answer these question, tell me at what point in the season did you decide that the Yamaha was better than Honda? Take my questions as a compliment old chap, as I'm not gonna debate this with a neobopper who's opinions amount to ..... Of the people who voted for Honda, there are few I would carry a debate with, none of which I consider neoboppers buddy. So don't get you panties in a bunch.

michaelm said:

An hypothesis to which you are entitled, if you can also encompass the odd coincidence of the championship wins by the 2007 ducati and 2011 honda being immediately followed by major changes to the tyres.

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In both those cases some would state he was on the best bike on the grid. The duc may or may not have been the best in 07 but it was a f'ing rocketship! And then the bike got worse and worse as the other bikes got better over that year to date. Could honda suffer a similar fate because of Stoner Suppo and co? To soon to tell but it appears they are going the wrong way. Blame the tires if you want but the bike had chatter before this weekend.

Jumkie said:

What evidence to do you have to say the Honda has issues, this coming from a guy who thinks Stoner is a ....., whiners, liar, weak minded? Let me guess, Stoner said the Honda has issues, and you now believe him? hahaha What, talk about ironic. Who else is saying the Honda has issues? Oh yeah, Pedro, the guy getting beat by Stoner. Who else is saying the Honda has issues? Oh yeah, the Honda boss, the guy getting beat by that other Jap manufacture. So Mdub, what evidence do you have for Honda being inferior to Yamaha?

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Practices, quali, and the races.

chopperman said:

I can't vote because it doesn't seem clear cut. It maybe obvious to some with Lorenzo's yam looking to planted, yet Spies bike chatters like .....

Stoners honda has issues yet looks good on some tracks. Danis looks ok. It's swings and rounder bouts i reckon.

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Get off the fence you gimp.

Jumkie said:

What evidence to do you have to say the Honda has issues

...

I'm not gonna debate this with a neobopper who's opinions amount to ....

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come on,there have been plenty of replays that show the bike chattering violently



i feel offended

Jumkie said:

What evidence to do you have to say the Honda has issues, this coming from a guy who thinks Stoner is a ....., whiners, liar, weak minded? Let me guess, Stoner said the Honda has issues, and you now believe him? hahaha What, talk about ironic. Who else is saying the Honda has issues? Oh yeah, Pedro, the guy getting beat by Stoner. Who else is saying the Honda has issues? Oh yeah, the Honda boss, the guy getting beat by that other Jap manufacture. So Mdub, what evidence do you have for Honda being inferior to Yamaha? And while you struggle to answer these question, tell me at what point in the season did you decide that the Yamaha was better than Honda? Take my questions as a compliment old chap, as I'm not gonna debate this with a neobopper who's opinions amount to ..... Of the people who voted for Honda, there are few I would carry a debate with, none of which I consider neoboppers buddy. So don't get you panties in a bunch.

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Since I struggled to answer this before you were done editing. Let me go into more detail. As a new age neo-bopper yea I believe them because I see it. The evidence is there on video week after week. But its the fault of having two dumb ..... developing the bike. I would imagine this bike to be a cross between the pedro-bike and the stoners epileptic duc. And well thats what it appears to be to me.

During pre season testing both bikes had problems with the tires, Jlo/yam chose to go back to the original chassis. Honda may not have a rider that is good enough to make those types of decisions because they both rely on the engine to much instead of the entire bike. Casey is to arrogant to even do proper race simulations during testing.

hawkdriver said:

Casey is to arrogant to even do proper race simulations during testing.

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good point. i know he has a special ability to know very fast what works and what doesn't , but not doing race simulations at all always struck me as coming to haunt him

cliché guevara said:

good point. i know he has a special ability to know very fast what works and what doesn't , but not doing race simulations at all always struck me as coming to haunt him

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You guys have no idea how much I have been blasted for saying this in the past years. They use to blame it on his milkohol problem.

Frizzle said:

I think the difference in the two is perhaps one is more agreeable to the new spec tyres & the other doesn't & suffers from chatter.

To me from looking at onboards it seems the Yamaha has an advantage in corner speed & the Honda has an advantage on the straights.

In my opinion for what it's worth, Honda had an advantage last year & so far Yamaha has one this year. Even the Tech 3 boys are bloody quick on that bike.

Having said that, neither Cal or Dovi are in Lorenzo's league as a rider.



To sum up, last year the Honda was the pick of the bunch but it needed a Stoner to get the championship off Lorenzo.

This year Yamaha seems to be the bike of choice but it needs a Lorenzo to ride it to win a championship.



A couple of things that have left me scratching my head this year.

Lorenzo was terrible in the rain in the lower categories. Even from pole if it rained you knew he would be going backwards pronto.

But now he is smashing everbody on damp tracks by 10 seconds in cruise mode & he could have won by more.

The other thing is the length of time it has taken Honda to get over their chatter issues. It was reported as a problem even in testing at Malaysia before the season begun but here they are at exactly the same place.

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Well here is one opinion backed up with some thought (I haven't got to you Mike), ok, the tire. So this is the major factor in your opinion, that the Yamaha is a better bike than the Honda because the new tire is more agreeable to the Yamaha? And you say this year the Yamaha is better, though Honda dominated pre-season testing, so I'm not so sure. Well, Ben Spies has complained about chatter problems too. Its also believed that the factory and Sat Yamahas start out the same going into the season, yet the podiums have been dominated by Honda, fact. So, yes both Casey and Pedro have complained about the new tires, correct. Specifically, the front tire, right? Lets be clear, that the only two complaining about this tire are Casey and Pedro. The other two Honda riders have preferred the other option according to reports. Of course, Pedro said rather arrogantly, 'well look at their lap times'. This from a guy who is getting beat by his teammate most all the time. So obviously, even Pedro isn't pushing the tire like Stoner is, correct? Now in 2 events, we have only had 5 races so far, Stoner cited arm-pump and a rear tire wear issue (Qatar/Britain). In the other three events, Stoner won two (Jerez & Estoril) and, finished off the top step in horrible wet conditions in Le Mans. Stoner used the wet tires in France. So then, we can't possibly conclude the tires were the problem there right? That leaves us the Catalan GP ONLY. Here Stoner got pole! Not exactly a bad tire day, eh? Maybe those tires can handle the forces imposed on them (as Pedro suggested the contrary), surely a pole lap pushes the tire to cope with forces more than a race in a one off lap? So how did he do in the race? Off the podium. So this was when the bombshell of his retirement was the talk of the town. But wait, his teammate, the guy who said look at the other guys lap times, came 2nd that race (surely this must count for something in the tire debate). Now that I've narrowed it down to the Catalunya GP, lets take a closer look at it in terms of this issue of tires. We are talking about a battle for the hometown crowd between to Spaniards desperate to be loved by their countrymen. We knew it was gonna be a battle royale, both Spaniards putting their tires through a serious test of wits and pressure. Lorenzo came up on top while Pedro said rather uncharacteristically, he got beat, kudos to Jorge. I might have missed it, but I don't recall Pedro kicking up much fuss about the tires. And trust me, I put everything Pedro says under a microscope.



So, out of the 5 events so far, we can eliminate 4/5 in terms of tires, since one Stoner didn't even use the tires in question (rain tires), and the other two the man cited a completely different issue, and the other two he won. So we are now relegated to determine that the Yamaha is better because in the only 2 events where we could safely say the tires where the issue are Jerez and Catalunya. Casey won Jerez! That leaves us win ONE race then. If you want to base the tire woes on practice session, well, Casey has lead more. So again, I'm not confident the tire is the reason why I would say the Honda is inferior to the Yamaha other than the HRC boys have complained about it.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Since I struggled to answer this before you were done editing. Let me go into more detail. As a new age neo-bopper yea I believe them because I see it. The evidence is there on video week after week. But its the fault of having two dumb ..... developing the bike. I would imagine this bike to be a cross between the pedro-bike and the stoners epileptic duc. And well thats what it appears to be to me.

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Ah, only you can turn a neo-bopper argument against them. hahahaha. And here I thought peeps saying the Honda is better was just a Stoner apology. But you sir, are one step ahead of me; since its more evidence that Stoner is a .... developer. You really don't like Stoner, do you...