Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

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Honda or Yamaha?

  • Honda

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yamaha

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
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Ah, only you can turn a neo-bopper argument against them. hahahaha. And here I thought peeps saying the Honda is better was just a Stoner apology. But you sir, are one step ahead of me; since its more evidence that Stoner is a .... developer. You really don't like Stoner, do you...
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I mean he's fast and all but yea......But its more than that. I dont like repsol or perdo much either. Dude you might want to jump of honda is better quick. Can you imagine next years bike? Stoners input and Marc and pedro developing. Talk about ......!!!!
 
Yamaha is clearly the best bike because it has the least problems.



The Honda has Honda itself and both its riders saying that they have problems with the bike.



Mental, this is a decent post from you, however, I don't think the logic based on Hondas representatives is enough to conclude since those complaining are not exactly independent non vested voices. The Yamaha boys were saying very early that they would have to make gains to keep up with Honda. Has everybody forgot about this? Lorenzo said he would need to be perfect to beat Stoner. If your logic is sound enough to conclude that Honda is inferior because their riders have complained, then why would Lorenzo's statements to the contrary not hold equal weight? Also, lets for a moment say its not a mental issue with Spies, then we must take his word at face value that he is having problem with his bike regarding chatter. If we do conclude its a mental issue with Spies, then we must also use the same logic with Stoner, right?



Besides that I think the rider makes the most difference and Lorenzo is so focused and so determined. This is his last chance to beat Stoner and if he does it will render obsolete any future arguments that Lorenzo only won because Stoner retired.



I think Stoner can not wait to get out of the place and it is only his competitive nature that he is relying on. This disappoints me with Stoner. I want him to be so hungry to win his last championship that nothing stands in his way. But it looks like that is not the case.



Well, I know its not popular among Stoner fans for me to say his heart is just not in it, so kudos for saying this. Stoner was able to win on what was an seriously inferior Ducati, even his last year notching up wins and podiums. Even if I was to concede that the Yamaha and Honda are so close in performance as to not be able to determine which is better, surely Stoner can beat Lorenzo on 'equal' weapons?
 
I mean he's fast and all but yea......But its more than that. I dont like repsol or perdo much either. Dude you might want to jump of honda is better quick. Can you imagine next years bike? Stoners input and Marc and pedro developing. Talk about ......!!!!



These bath salts are tasty.



Anyway, so just out of curiosity, when did you (and anybody else who voted for Honda above) decide the Yamaha was better?



1. After testing

2. After Qatar

3. After Jerez

4. After Estoril

5. After Le Mans

6. After Silverstone
 
pretty much after testing,

i was expecting honda to have a 2004 like season from the first moment i heard they had chatter issues they couldn't solve easily.rule and tyre changes didn't help them either it appears



for the record : i was among the first to say that stoner doesn't look like the guy in 2006-2011. i firmly believe if he could win so many races on the duc and be competitive (yes he crashed a couple of times, but winning on a duc means something) then surely he must be a constant winner on a honda.

he doesn't look to be much better than pedro at the moment and i think his potential is above the spaniard
 
Until LeMans Me as a Pedrosa fan thought it was just Dani who was being a ..... with the 1000cc. After the Estoril race Casey and Dani both were talking about chatter and at Le Mans where casey announced his departure I thought he is going to be the same.So Casey was out of the title game from that race. But about Honda the main reason I thought it might have seroius problems was at Catalunya were Casey couldn't get on the podium and Dani couldn't hold his lead. Lorenzo and Yamaha were the better bike in parts of the track that it seemed it was a Honda part.
 
Good points. It's probably more track dependant than anything. The crazy thing is Spies is having more issues on this years bike than last years 800's, yet was super fast in early season testing. Where has it gone wrong for him since then? I think he is at least as good as Cal & Dovi. They should not be beating him consistently on the Tech 3 Yamies. I think if Dovi hadn't pranged his bike he would have been 2nd on the weekend.



Its my personal opinion, I think Spies has lost some confidence. He was on a pole setting lap at Qatar then had that crash that looked reminiscent of Simonchelli's fateful accident. I don't know if this screwed with his head, but despite these guys not being like us, they are still human. Spies is fast, we know this from his lap times, but he hasn't put it together in a race. Some of it chalk up to bad luck, while a bit we can chalk up to set up and bike performance, and a bit perhaps chalk up to confidence--that's decidedly a mental aspect. That's why I say Stoner doesn't have his heart in it, as the man is also human. He just made the biggest most important decision of his life, and its exactly then that he didn't win with commanding margins.



Stoner is definitely having problems with the curent tire allocation. In Catalunya he went for the hard compound & just wasn't competitive & ended up off the podium. This time he went for softs & had used them up too early & had to fight off Pedrosa & even Bautista to keep them behind him to get second. Honda & Stoner have some work to do to get that sorted. If it takes to long to find a solution then the title will be gone.



I don't put much stalk into what Pedro says, as he has yet to win a race, but if front tire load is the issue, then the only place he beat Stoner was at Catalunya, where Pedro scored a 2nd, and Casey may have simply made the wrong tire choice. Other than Catalunya, where else did Casey say the problem was the front tire? Qatar, arm-pump, Jerez, he won, Portugal he won (a tracks Lorenzo owns), Le Mans he used wet tires, Silverstone he blamed the rear tire.
 
Based on what my friend, a hunch? Remind what manufacture consistently toped all the tests? Here is a hint: Honda. Did you know there is an option to remove your vote on the poll above?
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based solely on my opinion that chatter ..... a bike up no matter how good the rest is

i thought honda would walk the 2004 season. not saying rossi and the new m1 didn't matter, but i think chatter always plays a major role



we're talking about the very pinnacle of racing, i can only imagine how scary it is to go through corners at that speed and lean angles and then having the handlebar vibrate like jackhammer!



maybe i expressed myself wrong, i didn't think yamaha was the best bike then. just as i think it isn't that much better now. but a bike which suffers from chatter is always inferior to a comparable package without chatter





also , and this is just my guess, i think chatter isn't that big of an issue on a single lap where you wring the neck of a machine. but in the race where tyre wear and rider fitness play a big role this is most certainly an issue.

i gave you a hint right there, i don't think stoner or pedrosa are the strongest physically
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mind you, i'm with kingcobra on this one. as soon as the chatter is being dealt with the honda for sure is just as good,if not better than the yam. but for now it seems like its a step behind,at least for the physically weaker riders.
 
I think Ramon Forcada summed it up perfectly when describing the difference between the two most talented current riders. Casey is an animal while Jlo just bust his ... and pushes himself to keep getting better. The Yam is not the clear cut better bike as BS demonstrated this weekend when he used up his rear tire, the difference is Jlo and his riding style that he had to change when he went to Yam, he's been working hard at it while Casey has just been going fast. Five of the six factory bikes had tire issues... When Nicky was asked about the tires he said they have to figure out how to get the bike and him to work better with the tires, it's something that Jlo already has figured out and it's obviously a big part of racing especially with the changing weather conditions of this season. Jlo and his crew know what to do when they need to use the soft tire because they've put the time in, while CS has no clue and blames the same tire that was good enough to bring him home second. No one else claimed to have a defective tire and they dropped like stones when their tires fell off. It seems just going out and throwing in some fast laps has come back to bite CS right on the ... and he's just about always had problems with the soft tire option so he has no one to blame but himself for not working through that all these years.

Jlo and the rear tires

http://www.crash.net...or_lorenzo.html



You know, I'll be honest, I hadn't thought about this idea of race simulation possibly hampering Stoner. I didn't much consider it because when its mentioned, I have dismissed it as a Stoner hating tactic to say he's just lazy, chalk it up to my prejudice. But you have made a good point, in that running a race simulation can be fruitful given the new tire characteristics. There is a post practice interview, I can't remember where and when, its one of those on motogp.com vid package; but a reporter asks Stoner about his short run. Stoner shakes his head and says, he doesn't understand why these guys stay out there so long, and explains, if you don't have the right set up, what good is it to stay out there, etc. I only remember it because of the incredulous look he gave the report, which made me laugh. And I thought, yeah, that makes sense what Stoner said. But now I'm thinking, can some of his competitors (not all) be thinking about something other than just getting the right set up? Are they taking mental notes about tire wear perhaps?



I don't think Stoner is lazy, but I do think he has a special and unique way about going about a race weekend event. All the riders have some unique quirk, Stoner for example likes to let all the riders pass and he is the last to grid up. Why? I don't know, perhaps he thinks there is an advantage to doing it. He seems convinced there is an advantage to taking short stints in practice. he has his reasons. But just maybe, not sure myself, but perhaps there may be wisdom in taking longer stints. He has certainly been caught out on tire choice, as he didn't use the same ones as Lorenzo this last weekend.



Again, I think the difference between Jlo and Stoner is the mindset they came into the season and the evolution of that mindset. Casey came in confident, then he's become more and more disenchanted with GP, so much so that he took the unthinkable step of announcing his retirement, that is a huge thing to internalize. Lorenzo came in thinking he has to stay that extra minute at the gym, eat that special wonder fruit promising better health, staying that extra moment rewinding and viewing video footage, putting in that extra lap, sitting down with the engineers and burning the midnight oil, being perfect in mind body and soul during the race, no mistakes for 45 mins or so, all this to beat the fastest guy on a HRC built, engineered, and developed weapon. He has risen to this challenge, and now this somehow has convinced people to conclude the Yamaha is the superior machine. No, I think Lorenzo is the better prepared racer.
 
I pretty much decide when they signed Casey. I knew bringing his crew in was going to turn that bike into a pos. It will continue to get worse as the two ... clowns & fucktarded crews undevelop the best bike on the grid.
 
Did you know there is an option to remove your vote on the poll above?
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i'll stick with my impression that is backed by many far more knowledgable than me, among those the amazing motogp journalist king.

kropo is unfallible



thanks for the hint though, i'll delete my vote as soon as i smell the humble pie
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When you look at the 800cc Yamaha, what they needed back then to beat Honda was some extra bhp, so when they transferred to 1000 cc they managed to get to that point and they still had the rock solid stability unlike Honda which lost the stability due to the new brutal engine they had.

On the other hand what Jumkie told in his post is absolutely right but its just one side of the coin. Honda really has serious problems. It is so obvious that Jorge is more focused and determined for the title but lets go back to the start of the season:

Qatar: Stoner had difficulty leading the race due to arm pump or tyre problems.

Jerez and Estoril: Casey won both of them but it was really a hard race for him. Because unlike last year where could take a gap when he was leading, Jorge was on his ... all the race because the new Yamaha don't get ...... by the Honda on the straights just like before and still has its rock solid stability.

Le Mans:Jorge Lorenzo was the only guy that did not get into the retirement news hype and went to the track and rode brilliantly. Unlike Stoner who got cought in the hype that he made it by himself and Lorenzo used it as an advantage and won that race too.

Catalunya: That race was all about Jorge and Pedrosa in front of the home crowd. I know that Dani is more of a ..... this year with the 1000cc compared to last year. But at that race he was pushing that Honda to its limits. But every time that Pedrosa had a chance to extend his gap with Jorge he chickened out because he thought the bike was really unstable.

Silverstone: Casey again couldn't hold the lead and lost to Jorge. I think unlike Casey's own words that the retirement will not affect his performance during the season it really is bothering him. Right now what goes on Jorge's mind is getting that title and what goes on Casey's mind is getting back to the girls and have fun (just read his repsol blog).



At the end: I think at this point the amount of effort and hardworking that Jorge puts in winning the title is more than the amount of hard work and effort the repsol boys bring to fix the bike and continue the season more competitive.



So my vote is Honda (without the chatter issue). But right now the Yamaha works much better because it has more stability and also it has the sufficient amount of bhp to deal with the flying Hondas in the straights.



Excellent post.



(except, I haven't heart the HRC riders make fuss about the "brutal" engine. HRC dominated all the preseason tests).
 
No doubt who is riding the best this year, a bloke called jorge lorenzo. Calling the yamaha the best bike is excuse making the same as it has been in any other year. If it is, as is the case if the honda was last year, this is the aim of the sport, and it is or should be the aim of every rider to either get on the best bike or make their bike the best.



As I said in the other thread in the "modern" era , a period of 35 odd years, the record is 15 riders' championships each. It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that over this time honda have tended to build better engines, and yamaha have been a bit cleverer overall, particularly since it seems very likely that honda have expended more resources.



Still think having to rapidly re-develop bikes to suit tyres is stupid and definitely not cost saving though, and has handicapped the poorest manufacturers as much as or more than the richest.



Excellent post Mike, as usual. I can't really add much to it. I've kinda written a lot already if you noticed.
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Excellent post.



(except, I haven't heart the HRC riders make fuss about the "brutal" engine. HRC dominated all the preseason tests).



No they didn't fuss about it. actually in my opinion the brutality of Honda engines is their key to success. But for this season unfortunately at this point HRC cant deal with "the management of stability and engine power".

I dont know how much of a developer rider Pedrosa is but I think if Dani could do what Rossi did to Yamaha in all those year, Honda would be more flexible with the engine capacity change.

I did not mention Stoner and Lorenzo in the developing part because once I heard someone say: Lorenzo and Stoner are more of a title guy then a developing guy.



How true can this theory be?
 
I just think the current Yamaha suits the current Lorenzo better than the current Honda suits the current Stoner
 
I voted for the M1 largely based upon the reasons that I have already outlined in the Silverstone race thread. This is derived from observation both from last weekend and from race coverage. Jorge in particular appears to be able to run a variety of lines the bike looks very stable under braking and into corners and extremely nimble - all hallmarks historically of Yamaha race bikes. Regarding tyre duration/durability it seems kinder to the new BS compound than the Honda and although I think that the Honda's have greater straight line speed and punch out of corners but this advantage over Yamaha is not as pronounced as last year. The bike plays to the strengths of Lorenzo in particular and no I don't think it is as afflicted by chatter as the two factory Honda machines. I also agree with the point made earlier that the weaknesses in every bike are subject to a range of complex variables and these are governed by track surface lay out and temperature conditions.



On balance the Yamaha is the stronger package. Jorge knows exactly how to get the best out of that motorcycle and the bike knows how to get the best out of Jorge. I think Lorenzo knows this too. Honda have offered obscene money to poach him off Yamaha and he's happy where he is. I also 100% agree with Jumkie that he is happy in the place his head is at where Stoner currently is quite clearly not - hence his departure from the series.



Both the Honda and the Yam are phenomenal racing machines and it's not as though there's a huge disparity between them unlike the inequity facing Ducati. Are the tyre woes as desperate as Repsol Honda would have us believe? - probably not - but it must be damn frustrating watching Jorge go the distance whilst the more aggressive works Honda finds their grip levels compromised during the final third of the race. HRC will find a solution but I expect Stoner to ride around the problem before then. Casey is de-mob happy - he doesn't have to worry about the future or alienating Honda or criticising the bike in no uncertain terms. He may be disaffected but he has nothing in his own mind to prove - and little to lose bar the small matter of his title. While Jorge is riding so impeccably and with such consistency and precision right now that 25 point gap - as small as it seems - may well be unassailable.
 

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