Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
You are welcome to your opinion - tho it's worthless because you cannot back it up with facts. When you have actual facts that shore up your opinion let me know. In your opinion - you are witty and knowledable - but the facts don't back that up. You can repeat ........ an infinite number of times but it remains ......... Your opinions are like the lipstick on a pig. They don't fool anyone. It is your god given right to be state nonsense. Nobody can take that away from you.

I see all your insults, but where are your facts? You say Casey win numbers are ........ and your proof? More insults. You even say that the riders do give feed back to the engineers but you tell me that has no barring on development. Why? Because I am an ...... Great debate with you as always Kesh.

My balls your mouth.

13724:keshav flip.jpg]

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
I see all your insults, but where are your facts? You say Casey win numbers are ........ and your proof? More insults. You even say that the riders do give feed back to the engineers but you tell me that has no barring on development. Why? Because I am an ...... Great debate with you as always Kesh.

My balls your mouth.

13724:keshav flip.jpg]

I am supposed to feel mortified because you post a photo of yourself looking like a .......?

You look like you are exhibiting your camel toe in a giant orange diaper. I love it when you shoot yourself in the foot.

And what the .... do you mean by Stoner's win numbers are ........? Speak English.

I never said there was no bearing on development. What I said was there is a limit to how much the rider's feedback can accomplish and that the final results are the responsibility of the engineers and that Boppers always exaggerate the degree to which said feedback influences the final results.

Rossi is the perfect example of this. Ducati has been running around like the proverbial headless chicken for more than a year and even with THE GOAT's legendary feedback and Jeremy The Giant's help, combined with zillions of Marlboro bucks - the bike is ....... BECAUSE THE ENGINEERS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING IT COME TOGETHER ARE INCOMPETENT. It's not Rossi's fault that the Duc sucks. Ergo - it's not Stoner's fault that the Honda is not living up it's potential.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
I am supposed to feel mortified because you post a photo of yourself looking like a .......?

You look like you are exhibiting your camel toe in a giant orange diaper. I love it when you shoot yourself in the foot.

Thats just were I had to airbrush out my .... so your logo would show clearly.

Keshav said:
And what the .... do you mean by Stoner's win numbers are ........? Speak English.

I never said there was no bearing on development. What I said was there is a limit to how much the rider's feedback can accomplish and that the final results are the responsibility of the engineers and that Boppers always exaggerate the degree to which said feedback influences the final results.

Rossi is the perfect example of this. Ducati has been running around like the proverbial headless chicken for more than a year and even with THE GOAT's legendary feedback and Jeremy The Giant's help, combined with zillions of Marlboro bucks - the bike is ....... BECAUSE THE ENGINEERS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING IT COME TOGETHER ARE INCOMPETENT. It's not Rossi's fault that the Duc sucks. Ergo - it's not Stoner's fault that the Honda is not living up it's potential.

Stoners wins decline every year he is with a team. I am saying his feedback is some of the blame. I have stated my opinion on the state of ducati already go back and read it. And if you want to bring Rossi and Burgess into it again. I say look at their track record and then go back to your statement about ducati. Now again show me a time that Stoners feedback benefited development of the bike he is on.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
A. Thats just were I had to airbrush out my .... so your logo would show clearly.

B. Stoners wins decline every year he is with a team. I am saying his feedback is some of the blame. I have stated my opinion on the state of ducati already go back and read it. And if you want to bring Rossi and Burgess into it again. I say look at their track record and then go back to your statement about ducati. C. Now again show me a time that Stoners feedback benefited development of the bike he is on.

A. I did not know they made airbrushes that small.

B. I'm not deaf. I hear what you say - but you have no evidence to substantiate the correlation between his feedback and the number of wins. The correlation exists only in your imagination. I can likewise opine that every time Stoner gets on Ducati it is red - but there is no provable correlation between Stoner's presence and the redness of the bike. I could likewise opine that every year Nicky is with Ducati it gets worse - but there is no evidence to support this either.

C. A rider's job is not to develop the bike. It is to race it.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
A. I did not know they made airbrushes that small.

B. I'm not deaf. I hear what you say - but you have no evidence to substantiate the correlation between his feedback and the number of wins. The correlation exists only in your imagination. I can likewise opine that every time Stoner gets on Ducati it is red - but there is no provable correlation between Stoner's presence and the redness of the bike. I could likewise opine that every year Nicky is with Ducati it gets worse - but there is no evidence to support this either.

C. A rider's job is not to develop the bike. It is to race it.

But yet it is the riders job to give them feed back to aid the development. I also included the team he brought with him as the problem. I am not just blaming the rider, I am blaming his whole damn crew!

mh_kingcobra · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
A rider's job is not to develop the bike. It is to race it.

Hi Keshav and MdubSTYLE

accept my apology for jumping in the middle of your debate. I was following your debate and I reached a question. I was watching the Fastest Documentary and I thought there has to be more than racing when there is this much huge investment from the big factories. I always thought the racing is an opportunity for the factories to deliver their newest technologies later to their street bike. In that order they hire highly talented mechanics to setup the bike and a professional rider to bring the technology to the circuits ground and beside that they race to enjoy the passion of it and bring sponsors into the game.

In that case can we say that the rider has a little part in the developing the bike while the main setup work is the mechanics part?

please inform me if I'm not getting it right

Cheers

mh_kingcobra · Jun 21, 2012

Hi Keshav and MdubSTYLE

accept my apology for jumping in the middle of your debate. I was following your debate and I reached a question. I was watching the Fastest Documentary and I thought there has to be more than racing when there is this much huge investment from the big factories. I always thought the racing is an opportunity for the factories to deliver their newest technologies later to their street bike. In that order they hire highly talented mechanics to setup the bike and a professional rider to bring the technology to the circuits ground and beside that they race to enjoy the passion of it and bring sponsors into the game.

In that case can we say that the rider has a little part in the developing the bike while the main setup work is the mechanics duty?

please inform me if I'm not getting it right

Cheers

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

mh_kingcobra said:
Hi Keshav and MdubSTYLE

accept my apology for jumping in the middle of your debate. I was following your debate and I reached a question. I was watching the Fastest Documentary and I thought there has to be more than racing when there is this much huge investment from the big factories. I always thought the racing is an opportunity for the factories to deliver their newest technologies later to their street bike. In that order they hire highly talented mechanics to setup the bike and a professional rider to bring the technology to the circuits ground and beside that they race to enjoy the passion of it and bring sponsors into the game.

In that case can we say that the rider has a little part in the developing the bike while the main setup work is the mechanics duty?

please inform me if I'm not getting it right

Cheers

Thats what I think my man, but change that little to a lot. I would think the developers would want to develop the bike around the riders and in this they must receive feedback, which we watch them give every time a rider gets of the bike. Some rider are more cerebral and are better at putting what the bike is doing into words. Some dont.

yamaka46 · Jun 21, 2012

basspete said:
Stoner is history son, last years news.

Good on him for bein the first Kiwi to take the title

Eh? You did see my avatar

What has Stoner leaving got to do with Mdub claiming that he ...... up the Duke and is now ....... up the Honda? If it were the case then he'd leave a .... Honda as a legacy for Marquez et al, so hardly "last years news".

MigsAngel · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
Thats what I think my man, but change that little to a lot. I would think the developers would want to develop the bike around the riders and in this they must receive feedback, which we watch them give every time a rider gets of the bike. Some rider are more cerebral and are better at putting what the bike is doing into words. Some dont.

I agree. Riders are not just there to be dumb pilots on an engineers wet dream. The riders are part of the development team to get the best all around individuality customized package for the rider to do their best. I guess some people dont see that...

JohnnyKnockdown · Jun 21, 2012

Stoners a fabulous developer.

In anticapation of his early retirement he redeveloped his handgun and is looking foward to hunting varmits around the farm

basspete · Jun 21, 2012

yamaka46 said:
Eh? You did see my avatar

What has Stoner leaving got to do with Mdub claiming that he ...... up the Duke and is now ....... up the Honda? If it were the case then he'd leave a .... Honda as a legacy for Marquez et al, so hardly "last years news".

It was a light hearted comment inferring that after the end o this season, Casey will be history. Lets just let him slope off quietly without fuss o a life o tractors and sheep.

mh_kingcobra · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
Thats what I think my man, but change that little to a lot. I would think the developers would want to develop the bike around the riders and in this they must receive feedback, which we watch them give every time a rider gets of the bike. Some rider are more cerebral and are better at putting what the bike is doing into words. Some dont.

Thank you for the information. So getting titles can't be the one and only goal of the teams. Maybe the reason Nakamoto and HRC really insist on having the stupid midget with them despite the fact that he has an ....... mentor, Repsol is spanish and he doesn't have any titles, is the way he can give the Honda team useful data for their developing process.

I was reading one of Kropo's articles and it said Pedrosa had a huge role in 2010 for the development of Honda's handling which later led into Casey's championship title in 2011.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
But yet it is the riders job to give them feed back to aid the development. I also included the team he brought with him as the problem. I am not just blaming the rider, I am blaming his whole damn crew!

We're going around in circles. Yes it is the rider's job to give feedback. The crew only do bike set-up. It is the engineers at the factory who are ultimately responsible for how well the rider's feedback is realized. There is no way any of us mortals can know with any certainty whether the end result is the failing of the rider to give good feedback (which is in fact not some esoteric mysterious arcane art) or whether poor results are a failure on the part of the engineers at the factory to implement the required changes. Since Rossi is considered a past master in the secret art of feedback and Ducati is still a POS - there is considerable empirical evidence that Ducati's engineers have failed to concretize Rossi's suggestions. And as any Rossi admirer will tell you Honda's infamously arrogant engineers who put more importance on the design than the rider - and their failure to implement Rossi's requirements - was the stated key reason for his departure from the Honda paddock. So there you have before you two concrete examples of the failure by Honda and Ducati to heed the feedback from Rossi, and you should therefore note that nobody ever held Rossi responsible for the failings of either Honda or Ducati. Therefore I ask you: How in hell is Stoner's situation any different? It isn't. He is only being held accountable for the failings of these two companies because he is not Rossi. End of story.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

mh_kingcobra said:
Hi Keshav and MdubSTYLE

accept my apology for jumping in the middle of your debate. I was following your debate and I reached a question. I was watching the Fastest Documentary and I thought there has to be more than racing when there is this much huge investment from the big factories. I always thought the racing is an opportunity for the factories to deliver their newest technologies later to their street bike. In that order they hire highly talented mechanics to setup the bike and a professional rider to bring the technology to the circuits ground and beside that they race to enjoy the passion of it and bring sponsors into the game.

In that case can we say that the rider has a little part in the developing the bike while the main setup work is the mechanics duty?

please inform me if I'm not getting it right

Cheers

That is pretty much it. The rider can only give feedback and make suggestions. How well the feedback is translated back at the factory or how seriously the engineers take the suggestions is the province of engineers, and engineers as a race are famously arrogant and resistant to implementing changes to their precious designs suggested by mere riders.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MigsAngel said:
I agree. Riders are not just there to be dumb pilots on an engineers wet dream. The riders are part of the development team to get the best all around individuality customized package for the rider to do their best. I guess some people dont see that...

I think everyone sees that. What some of us don't do is, we don't exaggerate the responsibility of the rider. The rider can

only give feedback and make suggestions. If the engineers don't properly utilize the feedback - it's not a failing of the rider.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
We're going around in circles. Yes it is the rider's job to give feedback. The crew only do bike set-up. It is the engineers at the factory who are ultimately responsible for how well the rider's feedback is realized. There is no way any of us mortals can know with any certainty whether the end result is the failing of the rider to give good feedback (which is in fact not some esoteric mysterious arcane art) or whether poor results are a failure on the part of the engineers at the factory to implement the required changes. Since Rossi is considered a past master in the secret art of feedback and Ducati is still a POS - there is considerable empirical evidence that Ducati's engineers have failed to concretize Rossi's suggestions. And as any Rossi admirer will tell you Honda's infamously arrogant engineers who put more importance on the design than the rider - and their failure to implement Rossi's requirements - was the stated key reason for his departure from the Honda paddock. So there you have before you two concrete examples of the failure by Honda and Ducati to heed the feedback from Rossi, and you should therefore note that nobody ever held Rossi responsible for the failings of either Honda or Ducati. Therefore I ask you: How in hell is Stoner's situation any different? It isn't. He is only being held accountable for the failings of these two companies because he is not Rossi. End of story.

How is Stoners situation different? Well when Rossi left honda for yamaha. A. He left a winner at honda. B. Yamaha put everything into building a bike for Rossi and they made that bike a winner within a year. Stoner inherited a bike capable of winning at honda and we have since seen the bike decline. Now Imo We have seen that twice from Stoner. The duc was capable of winning with him on board and became less and less so over time. As for Rossi at ducati (again) they are just throwing everything they have at that .... bike praying something will make it better. Thats the fault of all at ducati. Past for getting it to this state and present going about it in such a ridiculous way.

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 21, 2012

Keshav said:
I think everyone sees that. What some of us don't do is, we don't exaggerate the responsibility of the rider. The rider can

only give feedback and make suggestions. If the engineers don't properly utilize the feedback - it's not a failing of the rider.

Poor feedback result in poor translation which makes it hard for the engineers to make a better bike. Add to that the lack of data a ride may give from the lack of time spent on the track during testing and practice.

Keshav · Jun 21, 2012

MdubSTYLIE said:
How is Stoners situation different? Well when Rossi left honda for yamaha. A. He left a winner at honda. B. Yamaha put everything into building a bike for Rossi and they made that bike a winner within a year. Stoner inherited a bike capable of winning at honda and we have since seen the bike decline. Now Imo We have seen that twice from Stoner. The duc was capable of winning with him on board and became less and less so over time. As for Rossi at ducati (again) they are just throwing everything they have at that .... bike praying something will make it better. Thats the fault of all at ducati. Past for getting it to this state and present going about it in such a ridiculous way.

This is nonsense. The Ducati was never any good. It had ungodly horsepower in 2007 and after that podiums gained were by virtue of Stoner's ability to ride around the deficiencies - which he had to do because the Ducati engineers were incapable of acting on his feedback. The Ducati did not win the championship in 2007. Stoner did.

The Honda was totally dominant all last year and looked the same going into 2012 - until BS deleted the tires the chassis was designed around. Nobody with a lick of sense would try to lay the blame for BS's removal of the tire from the line-up mid-season. The bike didn't decline. Honda just isn't able to re-design the chassis around a different tire overnight. It's not like on McGiver where someone throws together a solution using toothpicks and hairspray in the course of a 30 minute TV show.

Again you are saying Ducati is the problem when Rossi is the rider - but the opposite is true when Stoner is the rider. You are blind to your own hypocrisy and constitutionally incapable of admitting when you are wrong.

Lastly - 2012 isn't over and done yet. So unless you have a crystal ball you can't say Stoner left Honda with a badly developed bike.

hawkdriver · Jun 21, 2012

It looks like CS is the problem over at Honda, even the chassis developers want Dani to win the title.

I then asked Sato and Yoshiki for their thoughts on the 2012 season.

"I hope Casey does his best to defend his title, and of course I'm rooting for all the Honda riders. But if you were to ask my personal preference, I think I'd say I'd be very happy if Dani took the championship this year."

Yoshiki nodded in agreement.

"He's a rider who makes very hard requests – it's like his whole body is a sensor, feeling what's going on everywhere in the bike. You might call it annoying, except that the result of his probing has been to gain a huge amount of know how for us. It's similar with Casey, but I'd say it's the knowhow we've gained through working with Dani that has allowed us to find the most solutions."

http://world.honda.com/RC-V/RC212V/report-body02/page3/

Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

Honda or Yamaha?

Honda

Yamaha

MdubSTYLIE

Attachments

Keshav

MdubSTYLIE

Keshav

MdubSTYLIE

mh_kingcobra

mh_kingcobra

MdubSTYLIE

yamaka46

MigsAngel

JohnnyKnockdown

Attachments

basspete

mh_kingcobra

Keshav

Keshav

Keshav

MdubSTYLIE

MdubSTYLIE

Keshav

hawkdriver

Similar threads

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions