AMA Round 2 FONTANA (Spoilers)

So MIC FTW?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 23 2009, 10:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It won't hurt his sport at all, that's the scary thing. What Roger is doing to American road racing is he is turning it into something else, something that the purists like us won't like. It might become mainstream popular but it won't be Superbikes. So maybe NASBIKE will take off, I don't know, but Superbike racing in this country is dead. And for those of us purists, it's a sad state of affairs at the moment. I'll only speak for myself but I am done with that series, I'll read about it and discuss it but I will not watch any of the programming nor will I spend any money supporting the series or its sponsors. I generally make it out to Road America every year as it's only a six hour drive and is an enjoyable time but I can't justify giving my money to he group who has ..... and killed road racing in this country.

I was always a firm believer (and it probably has a lot to do with familiarity and nationalism) that the AMA was slightly ahead of BSB but not anymore, no chance.

I thought these sentiments had passed

NASBIKE would be the exact opposite of what we have now. NASBIKE would be spec equipment made by many different manufacturers; every bike would be the same. What DMG have created is the exact opposite. Tons of different equipment all racing within the same class. Much different than NASBIKE b/c riders have options.

I think NASBIKE could be an interesting product, but we have the exact opposite right now.

As far as Hacking being suspended, I couldn't care less. He and Rapp are notorious for terrorizing the youngins. I think it was at Laguna in 2007 where Hacking and Rapp gave a pre-race dissertation about how stupid Herrin was for racing with #46 when he couldn't live up to the hype.

Two thirty-somethings making fun of an 18 year old kid Shows how cut-throat the AMA is, but it also shows how out of control it had gotten. Totally bush league.

jUMKIE,compared to the past,what did the crowd look like.You said friday was a ghost town which is usually the slow day,how about Saturday and Sunday?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>DMG pisses off manufactures.
Manufactures hold on to successful riders as their chips (most of them at least).
SpeedTV will not show races live because manufactures withhold advertising dollars.
Though DMG and SpeedTV are in bed, they can't play because manufactures hold parts of puzzle.

Or we could have no racing at all, and you could go watch your racing at the local track.

When will Mladin get his indefinite suspension?

The Buell situation is a joke. At least in WSBK last year, when Ducati was allowed another 200cc for their twin, there was a rule in place that basically if they were winning often they would add weight to the bike. I don't see this happening with the Buell. But as previously mentioned, the casual fan will only have a partial knowledge of the rules and not realize the ........ backroom manipulation that is happening.

On the subject of Ducati, the commentators mentioned Pegram is racing on one of last years factory 1098's from WSBK.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 23 2009, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What's up kids.

Just got back from the races, oh boy do I have good stuff for you guys!

I met Roger Edmunson...

I have footage of Hacking and DiSalvo having a verbal scuffle...

I ate steak and shrimp in a certain hospitality tent...

I have great footage of the raceline...

I have a nice race report for you guys...

Spoke to more crew members and riders about the series...

and a few choice pics with umbrella girls...

and another Kevin Schwantz sighting... Tom, he said you're an .......!

Looking forward to your weekend report Jumkie. Always entertaining. What did you sneak into this time?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 23 2009, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought these sentiments had passed

NASBIKE would be the exact opposite of what we have now. NASBIKE would be spec equipment made by many different manufacturers; every bike would be the same. What DMG have created is the exact opposite. Tons of different equipment all racing within the same class. Much different than NASBIKE b/c riders have options.

I think NASBIKE could be an interesting product, but we have the exact opposite right now.
They did pass until the season started and continued and my fears were realized. Although we don't have spec equipment, the series has become far closer to that than it has been. Your average guy can now go out and put together a Superbike, which is very exciting for those who are in that position or aren't familiar with the class, but that's not the point of the class. The point of the class is to start with a production motorcycle and do anything you can to it with the exception of certain rules. It's absolutely not practical and only the factories and teams with loads of backing can afford to do it with any success but again, that's not the point of the class. Joe Squid shouldn't be able to show up and expect to be on a competitive or comparable package to a factory superbike rider, that's what Supersport and Superstock were for. Superbike is supposed to be the most powerful production motorcycles ridden by some of the best riders in the world. I don't want to see guys running around on GSX-R 1000s like the one in my buddy's garage. If I wanted to see that, I'd go to my buddy's garage. I want to see the baddest production motorcycles on the planet ridden by some of the best riders. Unfortunately now the baddest production motorcycles on the planet no longer race in this country outside of Miller.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 23 2009, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As far as Hacking being suspended, I couldn't care less. He and Rapp are notorious for terrorizing the youngins. I think it was at Laguna in 2007 where Hacking and Rapp gave a pre-race dissertation about how stupid Herrin was for racing with #46 when he couldn't live up to the hype.

Two thirty-somethings making fun of an 18 year old kid Shows how cut-throat the AMA is, but it also shows how out of control it had gotten. Totally bush league.
I care because Hacking is one of only a few riders worth mentioning in that class. They took away the bikes and they're minimizing the role of the rider. As far as DMG are concerned, all riders are good for are saying sponsors' names. They appear to script the riders and are certainly attempting to censor them. I don't know about you guys but I didn't go to AMA events to cheer for the AMA and its sponsors, I went to cheer for Nicky Hayden and Ben Bostrom.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 23 2009, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Think about how TV works and why we get the programming we get. It comes down to what is being paid for, and the way TV generates money is through advertising. So what happens when the manufactures withhold advertising dollars to Speed TV because they are not in agreement with the way DMG is running the AMA? The effect is we get what we have: races shown on delay NOT simply because Speed TV fails to see the value in showing races live (at least on same day) but rather because nobody is willing to pay for that live programming. And who would be the source of paying for this, yup that's right, the manufactures. You see how that works? There is no harmony, they all hold parts of this puzzle but none are willing to concede, so use the fans are left out in the cold while the executives posture and angle power plays against each other.

It's so simple I'm a bit disappointed I didn't see it.

Obviously, advertising revenues determine coverage so I was pretty certain that behind the scenes advertising contracts with DMG were to blame. However, I can't believe I didn't notice that the manufacturers had reason to pull advertising money. How many Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki commercials did we see each weekend.

Hmmm.........the plot thickens.

I'm pretty disappointed in Edmondson. He's pretty hard-nosed, I thought for sure they would use NASCAR to blackmail Speed into improving coverage. I don't think we will see live AMA racing unless the AMA gets a major series sponsor like NASCAR has for the cup (NEXTEL).

This is a sticky spot. 1 party holds 50% of the power, the other party holds the other 50%. Both believe they are entitled to all of the rewards.

I still can't get over my disgust for the MIC though. They used to spend all of their money on prototype parts and advertisements designed to cram liter bikes down our throats. Why can't they shift their budgetary expenditures towards hiring more talent and running more competitive bikes?

The money they spent on prototyping was useless. Especially the millions Suzuki spent on circumventing the TC rules. I still think the MIC are struggling for control.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 23 2009, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They did pass until the season started and continued and my fears were realized. Although we don't have spec equipment, the series has become far closer to that than it has been. Your average guy can now go out and put together a Superbike, which is very exciting for those who are in that position or aren't familiar with the class, but that's not the point of the class. The point of the class is to start with a production motorcycle and do anything you can to it with the exception of certain rules. It's absolutely not practical and only the factories and teams with loads of backing can afford to do it with any success but again, that's not the point of the class. Joe Squid shouldn't be able to show up and expect to be on a competitive or comparable package to a factory superbike rider, that's what Supersport and Superstock were for. Superbike is supposed to be the most powerful production motorcycles ridden by some of the best riders in the world. I don't want to see guys running around on GSX-R 1000s like the one in my buddy's garage. If I wanted to see that, I'd go to my buddy's garage. I want to see the baddest production motorcycles on the planet ridden by some of the best riders. Unfortunately now the baddest production motorcycles on the planet no longer race in this country outside of Miller.

Alright, fair enough. Fears have certainly been realized about DMG attempting to fix the DSB class for Buell's benefit. Possibly DMG just got it wrong, or they believed Buell when Buell was actually sandbagging in practice to get more upgrades.

People are blowing the NASCAR thing out of proportion though. Edmondson's major racing success was in the AMA. He's never had anything to do with NASCAR and none of his series' resemble NASCAR outside of the "sponsors first" mantra. He works for the company that manages NASCAR and he is friends with the France family, but he has never managed NASCAR and none of his projects resemble NASCAR, imo.

I would like to think that the AMA is putting out top spec race equipment as well, but truth be told, there wouldn't be a racer left alive if the AMA raced fully-tuned WSBK equipment. There are only a handful of venues in the U.S. that can handle WSBK speeds.

Equipment parity is important if you aren't the premier SBK or GP class b/c you must provide close racing that appeals to participants on the rise. DMG worked to make speed cheap (thank God), but don't think Joe Squid can get an expert AMA license at his local WalMart.

I want the bikes to go faster as well. After DMG gets more money in the hands of the venue holders, they can start making safety upgrades. How much would it cost for DMG to allow a half bar of boost AMA bikes will have more power than MotoGP bikes and they will cost 10% as much. Pragmatism is our strong suit, I'm glad DMG didn't paint themselves into a corner by adopting rules from another series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 23 2009, 05:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm calling it again, here and now.

MAT MLADIN WILL WIN THE 2009 AMA SUPERBIKE TITLE

(And he will do it in devastating manner. Barring any injury or some interference, etc., he may have or nearly have a perfect season!)



You heard it here first!

I think the competition already is planning on a perfect season, before the year started. It was Mladin, then Tommy Hayden, then the rest of the field.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 23 2009, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Alright, fair enough. Fears have certainly been realized about DMG attempting to fix the DSB class for Buell's benefit. Possibly DMG just got it wrong, or they believed Buell when Buell was actually sandbagging in practice to get more upgrades.

People are blowing the NASCAR thing out of proportion though. Edmondson's major racing success was in the AMA. He's never had anything to do with NASCAR and none of his series' resemble NASCAR outside of the "sponsors first" mantra. He works for the company that manages NASCAR and he is friends with the France family, but he has never managed NASCAR and none of his projects resemble NASCAR, imo.

I would like to think that the AMA is putting out top spec race equipment as well, but truth be told, there wouldn't be a racer left alive if the AMA raced fully-tuned WSBK equipment. There are only a handful of venues in the U.S. that can handle WSBK speeds.

Equipment parity is important if you aren't the premier SBK or GP class b/c you must provide close racing that appeals to participants on the rise. DMG worked to make speed cheap (thank God), but don't think Joe Squid can get an expert AMA license at his local WalMart.

I want the bikes to go faster as well. After DMG gets more money in the hands of the venue holders, they can start making safety upgrades. How much would it cost for DMG to allow a half bar of boost AMA bikes will have more power than MotoGP bikes and they will cost 10% as much. Pragmatism is our strong suit, I'm glad DMG didn't paint themselves into a corner by adopting rules from another series.


But they adopted rules that benefited only the Buell's. Their rules chased two factories and 4 top rides from Superbike. Rules that only distanced themselves from the rest of the world.

Spec racing sucks. Honestly, it does not equal the field, as teams still can spend all the money they want. Look at GP2? Look at the IRL? Look at NASCAR? Are the races any exciting? Really? Go to Bristol, and tell me that racing was exciting. Tell me after you visit the Indy 500. Templates and rules make the cars equal, but they are still completely different from team to team.

Roger worked for Grand Am. A series that is nearly fully under the NASCAR banner. They took a sports car series and turned it into a spec based, NASCAR series. Racing that is artificial. It does not resemble Nascar because no one really gives a .... about the AMA. Only person who is known to people outside those who follow the series is Michael Jordan. In Nascar, every driver is a household name.

Racing is just as much about the bike/car as the person racing it is. But in the mass marketing world of racing, people have seemed to forget about that. And that is why WSBK is succeeding. The bikes are a major part of the show with the riders. Same with F1. The cars are equal enough that no single racer is able to dominate, but unique enough that the teams can compete as well. To develop the fastest bike. To win the constructors championship, or just to be the fastest bike on the grid.

If you want equal fields, do like the Red Bull Rookies Cup, Formula Two, and the Skip Barber Racing Schools, and take the cars/bikes completely in house and it is a driver, and his mechanic. And the mechanics are employees of the series and work with all the riders.


Motorcycle racing in the US is like open wheel racing. It is dead. Their is no support from people outside the sport, and they have had idiots for the past 10-20 years sitting on their ..... and doing nothing to take the series' mainstream. They think events like the Indy 500, the Daytona 200, will attract new people on the history, and in todays world, that is ........ to think that. No fans that series will attract really care about the series and races history. They want racing, good racing. They want racers that are fan friendly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Mar 23 2009, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.............

All Grand Am cars are not the same, and they are certainly no more similar than the 1000cc Japanese bikes.

How do you think those look to the casual passerby, all the same perhaps? To us they are very different machines built with different design philosophies, in reality they are damn near identical already.

Motorcycle racing is/was spec before DMG showed up, but our eyes were never opened until we started looking for spec racing characteristics after DMG It's always been this bad or worse.

No racing series is about the machine, that's just the smoke they blow up your .... If it was about the machine and performance, F1 drivers would be wearing G-suits and oxygen masks. MotoGP bikes would do 300mph and pull 3 or 4 g's.

In truth, technological development grows exponentially but the human skeletal structure, neurological system, and pulmonary system, do not. All series suppress technology, MotoGP is the worst of the worst.

They still use chain drive, they still use conventional forks, all bikes still have passive suspension when leaned on their sides, all bikes have manual gear actuation. These technologies have been outdated for decades. Even minor upgrades like the 2 into 1 fork haven't made an appearance even though it would be crucial in providing more surface area for intake or radiator cooling.

Don't buy the hype. Prototype series are really about engineering solutions to problems that don't exist, and they do it within a box that is decreasing in size year after year. DMG are the only ones to completely reject this charade. They haven't done anything wrong other than shocking the masses with irreverent indifference to the silly masquerade we call racing.

Whether or not they succeed is entirely a factor of fan support. When considering the rulebook, there is no moral/ideological component to DMG's takeover. They are simply offering a different flavor of Jonestown juice. The followers determine which will be drunk. If you choose based on vanity, you can continue to show up to F1 events in $250 of Ferrari swag. If you want manufacturers to be able to build/race whatever they want, DMG's formula is actually better. Obviously, it needs a bit of tweaking after this weekend's events.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 23 2009, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All Grand Am cars are not the same, and they are certainly no more similar than the 1000cc Japanese bikes.

All Grand Am Daytona Prototype (where do you think the name comes from for Daytona Sportbikes?) are the same. Yes, you can choose what engine you use, and the chassis's vary in look, but are the same car. They are built around a spec.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>How do you think those look to the casual passerby, all the same perhaps? To us they are very different machines built with different design philosophies, in reality they are damn near identical already.

Yes, but what it takes to be a fan, is to draw in the fans of the bikes. You only buy Honda's because Honda's are the fastest bikes that year. Or a Suzuki. Or a Ducati. If you let the factories sit back and do nothing, they cannot market their bikes. They have no incentive to build better bikes. No incentive for after market companies to develop their products, as under the rules, they all have to be the same.

But even to people like us, they are completely different machines. I don't look at a Honda like I look at a MV Agusta. I don't look at a Suzuki, like I do a Yamaha. They have two wheels, and engine, and a full faring on the front of the bike, but beyond that, they are different. Some run 4 cylinder engines, some V-Twins, in the case of MotoGP, the V-5 with Honda. The 3 cylinder Triumphs. They have different characteristics. The Ducati and Suzuki have great straight speed, but suffer a bit in the corners compared to the Yamaha and Honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Motorcycle racing is/was spec before DMG showed up, but our eyes were never opened until we started looking for spec racing characteristics after DMG It's always been this bad or worse.

How? In that the Suzuki was winning everything and was the bike to have? That was the factories fault. They did not invest in racing in the US like Suzuki did. If Honda had the heard to actually race in AMA, they could have beaten Yoshimura. Suzuki for the longest time, was a bike plagued by terrible design, and support. Now, it seems to went the other way, but when you look abroad, you see the Suzuki struggling against the Honda, the Ducati, and even the Yamaha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>No racing series is about the machine, that's just the smoke they blow up your .... If it was about the machine and performance, F1 drivers would be wearing G-suits and oxygen masks. MotoGP bikes would do 300mph and pull 3 or 4 g's.

That is because people like Dorna, Bernie Eccelstone, the France family, Tony George, see that money is to be made marketing the drivers, more than marketing the cars.

If that was the case, then why does every major championship have a constructors championship? Teams like Ferrari in F1 are as glad to win that, as they are to have a driver win the world title.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>In truth, technological development grows exponentially but the human skeletal structure, neurological system, and pulmonary system, do not. All series suppress technology, MotoGP is the worst of the worst.

Again, they do that to keep enough sponsors into the series. I always had the idea that in Nascar they kept the cars slow enough, just so the TV camera could catch the small sponsor logo on the car's B-Fram. I think that is the case with every series. If you have a car or bike blast by at 250mph, you won't be able to see the small logo for Rachel Potato Chips so something like that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>They still use chain drive, they still use conventional forks, all bikes still have passive suspension when leaned on their sides, all bikes have manual gear actuation. These technologies have been outdated for decades. Even minor upgrades like the 2 into 1 fork haven't made an appearance even though it would be crucial in providing more surface area for intake or radiator cooling.

Most of that is because it works, and why screw with something that works? Cars that run on petrol are outdated, but we will continue to buy them for hundreds of more years. I think really, with bikes, the engineers have reached what is possible. That is why you see tire companies fighting each other. You see leather companies and helmet companies developing the lightest, safest, fastest gear for the racers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Don't buy the hype. Prototype series are really about engineering solutions to problems that don't exist, and they do it within a box that is decreasing in size year after year. DMG are the only ones to completely reject this charade. They haven't done anything wrong other than shocking the masses with irreverent indifference to the silly masquerade we call racing.

So doing nothing to the bike is supposed to want to keep the manufacturers involved how? Maybe you like privateer teams taking all the spots on the podiums like a club race, but I love to have support from the people who make the bikes. It draws me in. It draws more factories in. I love the hospitality tents the factories set up. I love the big trucks they bring in.

DMG is doing this out of desperation and the idea that they can copy the ideas that have been used to moderate success in NASCAR and Grand Am.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Whether or not they succeed is entirely a factor of fan support. When considering the rulebook, there is no moral/ideological component to DMG's takeover. They are simply offering a different flavor of Jonestown juice. The followers determine which will be drunk. If you choose based on vanity, you can continue to show up to F1 events in $250 of Ferrari swag. If you want manufacturers to be able to build/race whatever they want, DMG's formula is actually better. Obviously, it needs a bit of tweaking after this weekend's events.

From what Jumkie is saying, and some of the top riders are saying, they do not like the ideas. And those are the people you listen to. Not the big wigs in New York, or Daytona, or wherever NASCAR and DMG is located.

Needs a tweaking? It needs a complete overhaul. It needs to be given to people who actually know motorcycle racing, and not just a group of people who are out to make some money. I go to Champ Car. The people who went into their were team owners, had money, invested it, and still failed, selling out for only 10 million, after spending 100's of millions to stage races. To boost the car count with series funded teams.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 23 2009, 05:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm calling it again, here and now.

MAT MLADIN WILL WIN THE 2009 AMA SUPERBIKE TITLE

(And he will do it in devastating manner. Barring any injury or some interference, etc., he may have or nearly have a perfect season!)



You heard it here first!
Your coming around but i wouldnt say anyone heard it here first,unless it was the ones that tried to tell you for 2 years that it was the riders,not the bike.Some of us have been saying since day one of DMG, that the new rules wouldnt change a thing and Mladin might win every race and make Edmondson look like the fool he is. By the way,whats up with the sign off slogan you have become so enamored with,are you copying your idol Rush Limbaugh

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 23 2009, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I want the bikes to go faster as well. After DMG gets more money in the hands of the venue holders, they can start making safety upgrades. How much would it cost for DMG to allow a half bar of boost AMA bikes will have more power than MotoGP bikes and they will cost 10% as much. Pragmatism is our strong suit, I'm glad DMG didn't paint themselves into a corner by adopting rules from another series.
Do you really think that is their intent? Why give Buell all the considerations if their grand plan is to get the bikes back up to the speed they used to be at or faster? If the DMG is going to get money into the hands of venue owners then they are banking on it happening through the takeoff of this series. And it's pretty clear to me and most informed fans that DMG have a vested interest in seeing Buell win and I think that's because DMG feels there is a lot to be gained by having an American brand winning an American series. And they're right, I think a lot of Harley riders could be turned onto this if Buells start to win on a regular basis. But if they do make the bikes go faster again, they are going to lose a lot of their new fans because they won't be able to make the 1125s, or whatever monstrosity Buell have created at that point in time, go any faster.

This is another reason why I am very skeptical of the DMG. I don't think they have any interest in making the bikes go faster. I think their insistence on 600s is an oversimplified and under-thought cost cutting measure and additionally, and more importantly, a middle finger to the manufacturers.