2025 Silly Season

Havey said:

KTM could easly be the best bike, all they would have to do is change to Desmo valve gear,,,,,,,Simple.

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Too bad they missed out on the Marc Marquez sweepstakes, though then again Marc never had any interest. Which still really makes me wonder what he saw that kept them out of the running. I wonder if to ride the RC16 to the limit, that means essentially one is turning it into a Widowmaker just to keep up with the Ducati Desmosedicis.

I am of the opinion that KTMs problems are more organizational and cultural, rather than technical.

Which is why some heads are rolling and more to go.

JPSLotus said:

Too bad they missed out on the Marc Marquez sweepstakes, though then again Marc never had any interest. Which still really makes me wonder what he saw that kept them out of the running. I wonder if to ride the RC16 to the limit, that means essentially one is turning it into a Widowmaker just to keep up with the Ducati Desmosedicis.

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Same as any sane person, he knew he would be able to get a Ducati ride. It's not rocket science really.

Saffa said:

Same as any sane person, he knew he would be able to get a Ducati ride. It's not rocket science really.

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There was no guarantee he would get the factory seat especially considering they had a deal agreed upon with Jorge Martin before Marc pulled perhaps the most audacious move of his career to send Ducati into an abject panic over losing him. He refused to ride for Pramac which made it an all-or-nothing wager.

Also, calling it a thought any sane person would have? Please.

Since you seem to know it all apparently, do you happen to recall Marc following the RC213V at Valencia to see what the 2024 iteration looked like in action? He commented that Honda hadn't fixed a thing on the RCV. How has the RCV looked this year? Are you sure he didn't do this with the KTM RC16? I see their riders overriding trying to keep up with the top bikes (DUCATI) as evidenced by multiple crashes many race weekends.

JPSLotus said:

There was no guarantee he would get the factory seat

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To be fair, the assumption from early on was that he would get a factory BIKE, just not in the Lenovo team. And the assumption for some time was that he would take it.

I don’t think it was ever up for question whether or not he’d get a GP25. He probably would have used interest from KTM and Aprilia as a bargaining chip (And successfully at that).

We should also place little emphasis on Marquez' rejection of Pramac.

For all we know, it could have been a negotiating stunt. Walking it back would have been a bit embarrassing, yet there aren't many in the paddock who wouldn't have wanted to go for the Ducati Corse bike if that was a possibility.

Sennas_Caress said:

We should also place little emphasis on Marquez' rejection of Pramac.

For all we know, it could have been a negotiating stunt. Walking it back would have been a bit embarrassing, yet there aren't many in the paddock who wouldn't have wanted to go for the Ducati Corse bike if that was a possibility.

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It was definitely a case of who blinked first.
Gigi did.

If they told Marquez it’s Pramac or nothing, I’m fairly certain he’d have gone to KTM and kept his Red Bull sponsorship. Even if it’s the 2nd best bike.

synn said:

It was definitely a case of who blinked first.
Gigi did.

If they told Marquez it’s Pramac or nothing, I’m fairly certain he’d have gone to KTM and kept his Red Bull sponsorship. Even if it’s the 2nd best bike.

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I am of the opinion Marc played it perfectly. He had everything to gain and not much of anything to lose. As you said, the worst case scenario is he gets a factory ride on an RC16 and keeps Red Bull. Gigi wasn't going to let him walk.

synn said:

It was definitely a case of who blinked first.
Gigi did.

If they told Marquez it’s Pramac or nothing, I’m fairly certain he’d have gone to KTM and kept his Red Bull sponsorship. Even if it’s the 2nd best bike.

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All parties except the Beast were engaging in a degree of brinksmanship imo. Martin started it off, not unreasonably, saying only a ride for the factory Ducati factory team in 2025 was acceptable to him. Ducati wanted to reduce the number of factory spec bikes down to 3 for 2025, hence no 2 factory spec bikes for Pramac, and no factory bike for Gresini. Pramac wanted 2 current spec bikes and MM, or they would walk to Yamaha, obviously not an idle threat, after refusing MM a 1 year contract for this season but giving one to Morbidelli, all the while harbouring antipathy towards MM over the 2015 brouhaha within their ranks which became public after he refused them. MM I am sure wanted a factory Ducati bike, whether such a bike at Gresini would have been sufficient remains an open question imo, as does whether he would really have walked to a KTM or Aprilia. Ducati obviously wanted VR46 rather than Gresini as their number 1 satellite team if Pramac left.

synn said:

It was definitely a case of who blinked first.
Gigi did.

If they told Marquez it’s Pramac or nothing, I’m fairly certain he’d have gone to KTM and kept his Red Bull sponsorship. Even if it’s the 2nd best bike.

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Pit Beirer seemed to think Marc had zero interest in KTM according to multiple reports. Frankly I'm inclined to agree with his thinking as there was nothing to indicate KTM was ever any type of consideration. My point is if Marc could pick up from following the Honda at Valencia, are we sure he didn't do the same for the KTM leading up to the factory Ducati signing? Sure is the 2nd best bike at the moment, but as we're seeing, there is an ocean between the RC16 and the GP24.

Plus Marc already showed that the only thing he truly cared about was getting the factory Ducati ride. If he was willing to forgo the Red Bull sponsorship to ride for the factory Ducati, we know certainly he doesn't care about the money. Winning a championship again has been his only priority. Maybe had they offered a current spec bike at Gresini, things would have been different. But he said early on he was after a factory bike. And I take that to mean not a factory bike at a satellite team. Because it's still not the same as being in a factory team.

Pramac was never an option because of the Nieto factor. I just think he kept that to the vest as a bargaining chip with Gigi.

KTM with the Red Bull sponsorship didn't matter since Beirer said he never had any belief in Marc ever signing with them and made plans accordingly. We know Yamaha and Honda were obviously not options.

So what does this leave, Ducati or Aprilia.

Much like the panic over the #1 plate, I believe the fear of Marc, a generational talent and arguably the greatest talent of the 4 stroke era, walking to Noales was enough to terrify Gigi and Domenicali.

He would be on a RS-GP if Gigi hadn't blinked.

But in the process, it appears he also eliminated most of his main competition. Pramac literally went to Yamaha after he shunned them. Martin wound up at Noales instead. The Beast is at KTM. Fabio is still being hamstrung by the Yamaha regardless of the Misano ride Sunday. Pedro is an X factor of course but the KTM would have to make such a huge step forward while simultaneously praying Gigi doesn't produce another worldbeater with the GP25. I think next year's bike is going to be another major step forward.

Pecco is going to be his biggest challenge ever as a teammate. I think he would prefer to minimize all other external factors and leave it to just Pecco.

Sennas_Caress said:

We should also place little emphasis on Marquez' rejection of Pramac.

For all we know, it could have been a negotiating stunt. Walking it back would have been a bit embarrassing, yet there aren't many in the paddock who wouldn't have wanted to go for the Ducati Corse bike if that was a possibility.

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He was never going to pramac. The Nieto factor negated that entirely I'm afraid.

Personally, I believe that all parties were more than willing to eat all the humble pies required, if their optimal goals were no longer a possibility.

JPSLotus said:

There was no guarantee he would get the factory seat especially considering they had a deal agreed upon with Jorge Martin before Marc pulled perhaps the most audacious move of his career to send Ducati into an abject panic over losing him. He refused to ride for Pramac which made it an all-or-nothing wager.

Also, calling it a thought any sane person would have? Please.

Since you seem to know it all apparently, do you happen to recall Marc following the RC213V at Valencia to see what the 2024 iteration looked like in action? He commented that Honda hadn't fixed a thing on the RCV. How has the RCV looked this year? Are you sure he didn't do this with the KTM RC16? I see their riders overriding trying to keep up with the top bikes (DUCATI) as evidenced by multiple crashes many race weekends.

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I'm not talking about the factory team, I'm talking about the BIKE. Did you honestly think there was a chance that he would take a KTM over a Ducati??

Either way, the dominos have fallen where they have, and we have championship winning caliber riders in 4/5 manufacturer camps (Yes I’m actively discounting Mir and HRC from that list).

That alone will make for some interesting TV next year.

It will be all eyes on the Ducati team next year, to see who establishes dominance (if that happens) and I think that many people will join me in guessing that the champion will be one of those two. And, if we get a left field other championship challenger, that will make things even more interesting.

Yes, it could well be another Ducati Corse Championship with possibly Marquez going level with Rossi regarding championships, or maybe Bagnaia adding his fourth on the trot.

synn said:

Either way, the dominos have fallen where they have, and we have championship winning caliber riders in 4/5 manufacturer camps (Yes I’m actively discounting Mir and HRC from that list).

That alone will make for some interesting TV next year.

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We have come a vastly long way from the days of privateers making up the grid. Kind of is a shame on some level but as soon as the lights go out, it's obvious to see we are far better off these days even if uh, we have a few "technical issues" that aren't going to be fixed till 2027.

Saffa said:

I'm not talking about the factory team, I'm talking about the BIKE. Did you honestly think there was a chance that he would take a KTM over a Ducati??

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Noales was always going to be the most logical destination if the Ducati thing didn't work out once you factor in the state of where every team was headed. But stop acting like the KTM is a .... bike along the lines of the RC213V.

I think that its more a case of if MM didn't get the GP25 in the factory team then he would of gone for the KTM rather than choosing the KTM over the Ducati

Why would a rider who needs to challenge for the title in the upcoming few seasons not want to ride the far best motorcycle on the grid?