2025 Silly Season

michaelm said:

So a single engineer called Gigi hasn’t been the main driver for Ducati’s current dominance.?.

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I see he got Ducati where it is not so by being an engineer but more so how he organised the team, he brought in a number of organisational changes such as cycling the engineers between the factory and the race track so they could experience what the whole objective is getting them away from the silo problem which seems to plague Honda

synn said:

Yamaha is working with Dallara, who has done a lot of single seater aero. They also hired Marco Nicotra from Ducati, who was Gigi’s go-to aero man. It shows in their current aero package which looks a lot more integrated and closer to the Europeans.

The incremental updates may not see like a lot, but compare last week’s M1 do Quartararo’s title winning M1 and you’ll see a ton of differences.


Not only that, Yamaha have done entire engines in F1.

Yamaha F1 engine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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Genuinely an incredible company. Despite the multiple industries the company takes part in, their products are always up their with the industries best.

@synn

Thanks to our discussion of the V5 Honda, I had a lovely dream tonight of sitting down for dinner with none other than Mr. Honda himself. I really care too much about all this stuff clearly lol. But man what I would have given to be an able to have a conversation with him about all this modern stuff with gp racing.

Then I had another dream that Michael Doohan never gets injured in 1999 and we actually see him lining up on the grid with the V5 in 2002.

If only.

JPSLotus said:

Michael Doohan never gets injured in 1999 and we actually see him lining up on the grid with the V5 in 2002

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This sounds amazing and terrifying at the same time.

A 2 year engine freeze will probably result in the 850 being almost as good as the outgoing 1000

synn said:

Multiple sources have theorized that the current 1000cc V4s can be down sleeved to 850cc, as the stroke can remain the same.

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synn says.​

"Multiple sources have theorised that the current 1000cc V4s can be down sleeved to 850cc, as the stroke can remain the same.

From everything I’ve read, and that includes opinions from the technically inclined, the size advantage of an all new V4 would be negligible going from 1000 to 850cc. Which is why they are of the opinion that all new engines will not be developed by the V4 manufacturers."

Here you are saying that They said “all new engines will not be developed by the V4 manufacturers”.

So They, are just going to “down sleeve” the cylinders of their present V4 1000 cc engines.

Sounds easy, going to save a lot of money. Just have to press 4, 3mm iron sleeves into the block and fit the new 75mm pistons.

But what happens when it is at TDC it’s a 75mm piston crown in an 81mm combustion chamber, sort of destroys all the squish, and drops the compression ratio, guess They would just weld up the space, but then the angle of the inlet stream would hit the cylinder wall at a different angle, so have to change the inlet port.
So do you think They will make new heads and put up with the extra 1Kg of iron sleeves of the old wide engine.

Get the picture .

The 2027 engines will be all new, narrow and light, as will be necessary for acceleration, with less Torque produced.

Havey said:

synn says.​

"Multiple sources have theorised that the current 1000cc V4s can be down sleeved to 850cc, as the stroke can remain the same.

From everything I’ve read, and that includes opinions from the technically inclined, the size advantage of an all new V4 would be negligible going from 1000 to 850cc. Which is why they are of the opinion that all new engines will not be developed by the V4 manufacturers."

Here you are saying that They said “all new engines will not be developed by the V4 manufacturers”.

So They, are just going to “down sleeve” the cylinders of their present V4 1000 cc engines.

Sounds easy, going to save a lot of money. Just have to press 4, 3mm iron sleeves into the block and fit the new 75mm pistons.

But what happens when it is at TDC it’s a 75mm piston crown in an 81mm combustion chamber, sort of destroys all the squish, and drops the compression ratio, guess They would just weld up the space, but then the angle of the inlet stream would hit the cylinder wall at a different angle, so have to change the inlet port.
So do you think They will make new heads and put up with the extra 1Kg of iron sleeves of the old wide engine.

Get the picture .

The 2027 engines will be all new, narrow and light, as will be necessary for acceleration, with less Torque produced.

Click to expand...

I don’t want to start a confrontational back and forth. I am just conveying the information that people like Kevin Cameron(who knows a thing or two about motorcycle engineering) have published on this matter.

Also, “Just down sleeve and be done” is an oversimplification and no one claimed this. Of course additional work needs to be done to optimize the combustion and so forth. The point is that designing all new engines is probably not the best idea in the current economic climate (Have you seen what’s happening with the VAG group? How many more blank checks do you think they will cut for Ducati Corse)?

Don’t shoot the messenger because you didn’t like the message.

synn said:

I don’t want to start a confrontational back and forth. I am just conveying the information that people like Kevin Cameron(who knows a thing or two about motorcycle engineering) have published on this matter.

Also, “Just down sleeve and be done” is an oversimplification and no one claimed this. Of course additional work needs to be done to optimize the combustion and so forth. The point is that designing all new engines is probably not the best idea in the current economic climate (Have you seen what’s happening with the VAG group? How many more blank checks do you think they will cut for Ducati Corse)?

Don’t shoot the messenger because you didn’t like the message.

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No I didn't like the message, as it's ........ and then it gets poliferated around the net till it is taken as fact, like a lot of "internet facts". It would be better if you just posted the link to these articles, as you don't relay them very well.
I'll let this die now.

Havey said:

No I didn't like the message, as it's ........ and then it gets poliferated around the net till it is taken as fact, like a lot of "internet facts". It would be better if you just posted the link to these articles, as you don't relay them very well.
I'll let this die now.

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This is an Internet forum, not your personal court of law where everything has to be cited and footnoted. Can’t be healthy to have this level of anger over words on a screen.

I’d suggest a long walk and some fresh air, and that’s the last I will say on this matter as well.

p4p1 said:

IIRC Toyota farmed out the engineering of the 1jz head to Yamaha for their expertise rather than carrying out the work internally. I would certainly back them to have the expertise to come up with an excellent v4.

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This is a genuine, not a rhetorical, question. Why then has the Yamaha inline-4 been down on power for an extended period of time?

Looking at the above discussion, if Honda decide to follow the aerodynamic route (which I think they will have to), then they have a strong partnership with the Aston Martin F1 Team and I'm sure that something can be done. I'm not aware of Honda currently having a partner to help with aerodynamics. I did search, but it still could just be my ignorance.

Though, while 'partnering with an F1 team' is a common thing discussed in MotoGP, the teams that do aerodynamics best seem to be Ducati and Aprilia (please whack me if I continue mistakenly using two Ls), whom I believe are doing it in-house.

p4p1 said:

Genuinely an incredible company. Despite the multiple industries the company takes part in, their products are always up their with the industries best.

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In musical instruments, Yamaha instruments are always very good instruments for the price, no matter what the price is. And, even the cheapest will still be entirely competent and usable instruments. I sometimes find myself looking for the equivalent brand for other types of products. The one where you decide how much you want to spend, and then be sure that you're getting good value for money.

Havey said:

synn says.​

"Multiple sources have theorised that the current 1000cc V4s can be down sleeved to 850cc, as the stroke can remain the same.

From everything I’ve read, and that includes opinions from the technically inclined, the size advantage of an all new V4 would be negligible going from 1000 to 850cc. Which is why they are of the opinion that all new engines will not be developed by the V4 manufacturers."

Here you are saying that They said “all new engines will not be developed by the V4 manufacturers”.

So They, are just going to “down sleeve” the cylinders of their present V4 1000 cc engines.

Sounds easy, going to save a lot of money. Just have to press 4, 3mm iron sleeves into the block and fit the new 75mm pistons.

But what happens when it is at TDC it’s a 75mm piston crown in an 81mm combustion chamber, sort of destroys all the squish, and drops the compression ratio, guess They would just weld up the space, but then the angle of the inlet stream would hit the cylinder wall at a different angle, so have to change the inlet port.
So do you think They will make new heads and put up with the extra 1Kg of iron sleeves of the old wide engine.

Get the picture .

The 2027 engines will be all new, narrow and light, as will be necessary for acceleration, with less Torque produced.

Click to expand...

Sounds like yer channeling Lex.

JPSLotus said:

The V5 was one of the best sounding engines ever made for me.

The HRC techs that work in the Museum who maintain all the race bikes and cars have the luckiest job in the world.

Must be mental to be able to work on these and to touch them.

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Don't forget the Honda RC166!

synn said:

I honestly think all of the Gen1 MotoGP bikes sounded great with an edge to the RCV of course.

The Yamaha crossplane was novel for that time, the Cube we mentioned earlier, the screamer Desmocedici sounded raw and powerful as it was, the Kawa screamer was divine, even the Suzuki XRE0 wasn’t half bad.

I understand the technical reasons for having a big bang engine, but I’m honestly tired of the same old drone from every single camp right now.

The last time something sounded a bit different in the current formula was the 75 degree Aprilia, which was almost musical (But went like sh!t).

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Agreed, it is partically why I'm against instroducing spec parts or restricting the rule book so heavily under the pretense of cost cutting. Of course, the manufacturers have to be tamed down in their spending in some areas because the smaller guys just can;t compete. However, even with restricted rules, they generally just find another place to spend the money. Remember, Flavio Briatore once said of F1 "If they give you $180 million a year to race shopping carts, you'll find a way to spend $180 million a year racing shopping caerts"

The problem is, spec rules ruin ingenuity that might be present at smaller (or some big) teams. I often argue that F1 and MotoGP are now not much different from a spec series like Indycar. In the case of F1 you have a choice of 4 engines. ECU's are spec and the same (Supplied by McLaren actually) and most of the cars look virtually identical because the restrictive rules mean only one or a few concepts work. Engines in my opinion are too restrictive in MotoGP. But then I'll admit like others here, I just want to hear screamers, V5's and I3's again.

synn said:

I don’t want to start a confrontational back and forth. I am just conveying the information that people like Kevin Cameron(who knows a thing or two about motorcycle engineering) have published on this matter.

Also, “Just down sleeve and be done” is an oversimplification and no one claimed this. Of course additional work needs to be done to optimize the combustion and so forth. The point is that designing all new engines is probably not the best idea in the current economic climate (Have you seen what’s happening with the VAG group? How many more blank checks do you think they will cut for Ducati Corse)?

Don’t shoot the messenger because you didn’t like the message.

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It is something I find confusing. Because after it was decided the 800's were a failure and it was proposed to go back to 990's. The defining factor was the 81mm bore so that they could continue to use 800cc heads. But now, they are mandating a 75mm bore, which means you have to have an entire new engine. Maybe the engine freeze coming up is to allow manufacturers to save money for the 850cc engine development.

AnnoyingTwit said:

This is a genuine, not a rhetorical, question. Why then has the Yamaha inline-4 been down on power for an extended period of time?

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If you go back to interviews from the early 2000s, you’ll see that Yamaha has always been down on power. Peak power was something they never chased, instead making up lap times with cornering speed.

To quote Jeremy Burgess, “You only need top speed once a lap”.

Not until Quartararo threw down the ultimatum that they decided to chase power which as they found out, comes at a cost.

That said, all the wings create substantial drag, so they do need to chase power now, hence the V4.

AnnoyingTwit said:

Though, while 'partnering with an F1 team' is a common thing discussed in MotoGP, the teams that do aerodynamics best seem to be Ducati and Aprilia (please whack me if I continue mistakenly using two Ls), whom I believe are doing it in-house.

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The man who did a lot of the Ducati aero (Marco Nicotra) is now at Yamaha.

Romano Albessiano of Aprilia is an aerospace engineer by trade, hence their class leading aero. Planes are probably closer to MotoGP bikes than F1 cars in terms of aero, in the sense that their trajectory is 3D (Pitch, Roll, Yaw).

Thats the crux of it Synn. Now with aero, the bikes have a lot more drag/grip, so you need more power.

Having a corner speed monster won't be an advantage anymore, because with aero, all the bikes are corner speed monsters.

#22 said:

The problem is, spec rules ruin ingenuity that might be present at smaller (or some big) teams. I often argue that F1 and MotoGP are now not much different from a spec series like Indycar. In the case of F1 you have a choice of 4 engines. ECU's are spec and the same (Supplied by McLaren actually) and most of the cars look virtually identical because the restrictive rules mean only one or a few concepts work. Engines in my opinion are too restrictive in MotoGP. But then I'll admit like others here, I just want to hear screamers, V5's and I3's again.

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I couldn’t agree more.

At the very least, ditch the control ECU, control tyres and maximum bore.

An unnamed engineer from one of the factories said that the perfect engine for the 1000cc formula is a triple (This was pre aero), but it will not happen due to the max bore limit.

Pedro Acosta, in his first ever go in a kart, against Oscar Piastri.

Looking at the above discussion, if Honda decide to follow the aerodynamic route (which I think they will have to), then they have a strong partnership with the Aston Martin F1 Team and I'm sure that something can be done. I'm not aware of Honda currently having a partner to help with aerodynamics. I did search, but it still could just be my ignorance.

AnnoyingTwit said:

Though, while 'partnering with an F1 team' is a common thing discussed in MotoGP, the teams that do aerodynamics best seem to be Ducati and Aprilia (please whack me if I continue mistakenly using two Ls), whom I believe are doing it in-house.

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I gather Honda are supplying the engine for the Aston Martin F1 team next year. They might be able to ask some guy called Adrian Newey for a little advice about aero.

AnnoyingTwit said:

Pedro Acosta, in his first ever go in a kart, against Oscar Piastri.

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That was awesome, thanks for sharing! Acosta is quite the character!

I wonder what engine is in those carts. @#22 any ideas?

KZ class shifter karts. Hard to see the engine closely, but likely a IAME which are 175cc.

AnnoyingTwit said:

This is a genuine, not a rhetorical, question. Why then has the Yamaha inline-4 been down on power for an extended period of time?

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I would have to assume there is a difference in philosophy. Yamaha has always had useable power across the range. Honda, on the other hand have at times not had useable power and have been well beaten by Yamahas coming out of the corners, needing to make their time up on the brakes and on the straight.