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My honest take on this, fully admitting my bias to one side of the argument, is that no one on either side will ever manage to convince someone on the other side to switch positions. All we are left with are a whole bunch of unrelated parties arguing on the internet about something that happened 10 years ago.

If people don’t want Rossi to talk about 2015, then stop asking him about 2015. It’s not like he bought prime ad space in a newspaper and published his thoughts unsolicited. The media knows that every time they publish something about 2015, they will get endless amounts of clicks and comments. And people keep falling for it over and over again.

I myself, have more constructive uses for my time. Like speculating about the Yamaha V4. How about that eh?
Excellent take. It's like politics. Most people have a position, and sometimes even with facts, you won't change their position.

What I'd like to know if how far advanced Yamaha mean by 'advanced'. Are we talking advanced on the CAD model or Advanced as in ready to run on a bike?
People still talk about OJ Simpson murdering his wife but you don't hear OJ talking about murdering his wife very often.
Well, he wrote a book called 'If I did it', so technically he still is :p
 
If Yamaha (and Honda) can develop an engine for 2025 and 2026, then is there a chance that they could have enough development for a shot at the title in 2026? I mean, they are a second and a bit behind, but it looks as if the additional development they can do might have a chance of catching up that.


He's a team leader, not an engineer. (At least, not an engineer now). That's what is more important for MotoGP teams now - having someone to hire the right people and manage the team well. That's very different from a single engineer having a technical idea that gives years of dominance. EDIT: To be clearer: I'm aware of his engineering background (thesis on a carbon chassis for a group c racer), but that's not the role he is in now. His role now is IMHO much more important.

I've said before that I believe Ducati are most likely to dominate in 2027 - because they have built the best racing and engineering team. That's very different from the olden days where a single engineer would have a technical idea that would allow them to dominate for years.
Sure, but the whole engineering direction is still led by Gigi from what I can tell, and not necessarily for the good of the sport, I hate the aero stuff which I am fairly sure is his idea. You mostly have to be an obsessive madman to be great though.

Adrian Newey probably has an engineering team as well, but he leads them, and he seems to be able to head a successful team wherever he goes.
 
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Sure, but the whole engineering direction is still led by Gigi from what I can tell, and not necessarily for the good of the sport, I hate the aero stuff which I am fairly sure is his idea. You mostly have to be an obsessive madman to be great though.

Adrian Newey probably has an engineering team as well, but he leads them, and he seems to be able to head a successful team wherever he goes.
Yes, but what I was talking about was the old situation of one clever engineer having a clever individual technical idea. Gigi is, I think the best team leader and team builder around, and I would expect him to be hands on in hiring the talent that Ducati have. But, that's a different thing.
 
people privy to the inner workings of Ducati Corse remarked that the biggest difference that Gigi made was not the techno gadgets, but the work culture.

Prior to his arrival, everyone at Ducati Corse worked in silos. The engine guys wanted to build the most powerful desmo engine in the world, without a care how it affects handling. The chassis guys couldn’t care less about packaging and heat management. And so on.

He introduced a system to rotate engineers between departments and suddenly, everyone started to understand what the others were up to. The aero and gadgets came later.

Carlo Pernat hired Gigi in the 90s at Aprilia and he had this same approach that led to their all conquering 250cc GP bike. Even their 500 could turn a few heads on a good day.

Post Gigi Aprilia decided that chopping up an F1 engine to make a V3 would lead to an all conquering 4 stroke GP bike. We all know how that went.

2004 Yamaha worked similar to the Gigi way. Looks like they are slowly heading down that road again, which should lead to good things.

HRC seems to still be stuck in the old ways, with Bradl/ Nakagami saying the guys in Tokyo have no clue what the European test team is up to.
 
What I'd like to know if how far advanced Yamaha mean by 'advanced'. Are we talking advanced on the CAD model or Advanced as in ready to run on a bike?
I remember watching a video of the KTM squad a couple of years prior to their on track debut. They had a fully functional engine on a test bench, running a race simulation. (Ie they feed track and rider data into it, the engine accelerates, shifts, closes throttle etc as if it’s inside a motorcycle someone is riding). The rest of the bike was nowhere near completion.

I’m assuming that’s more or less where Yamaha is.
 

FIM trying to get an engine freeze in for the final two seasons of the 1000cc formula.

This will all but ensure Ducati victories in 2025 and 2026.

However, the two Japanese manufacturers, Honda and Yamaha - which currently benefit from the concession rules - will be exempt from the freeze, provided they do not achieve stronger results that might lead to a change in that exemption.

I wonder what 'stronger results' might mean in a measurable fashion. Looks like they get one chance to step up before the engine freeze (maybe) hits again. If I was Yamaha or Honda, I would go for it.

EDIT: Old article, but I've just read it. Triumph will introduce a new gearbox for Moto2 next year, with neutral moved to make it less likely that riders will miss gears. More interesting to me is that they say that their Moto2 participation has resulted in greater sales for their street triple range.

 
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FIM trying to get an engine freeze in for the final two seasons of the 1000cc formula.

This will all but ensure Ducati victories in 2025 and 2026.
Probably why KTM is developing the Batcycle with an all new engine at frantic pace.

Aprilia’s 24 engine is largely unchanged from 23, which makes me think they have a bigger step coming next year.

Honda could plonk an old NSR engine in without premix and literally make it freeze and couldn’t do much worse than the current effort.
 
Probably why KTM is developing the Batcycle with an all new engine at frantic pace.

Aprilia’s 24 engine is largely unchanged from 23, which makes me think they have a bigger step coming next year.

Honda could plonk an old NSR engine in without premix and literally make it freeze and couldn’t do much worse than the current effort.

Too bad Honda can't get a special dispensation to run a V5 engine again.

I still dream about seeing one allowed again.
 
Too bad Honda can't get a special dispensation to run a V5 engine again.

I still dream about seeing one allowed again.
Absolutely miss that mad bark!



Even the Aprilia Cube, as hopeless as it was, sounded absolutely incredible




The first phase of MotoGP was the best. Wild West in terms of engine layouts, good old chassis engineering making the bikes turn, and the rider making the difference.

The current era is only slightly better than the 800cc procession racing IMO
 
Absolutely miss that mad bark!



Even the Aprilia Cube, as hopeless as it was, sounded absolutely incredible




The first phase of MotoGP was the best. Wild West in terms of engine layouts, good old chassis engineering making the bikes turn, and the rider making the difference.

The current era is only slightly better than the 800cc procession racing IMO


The V5 was one of the best sounding engines ever made for me.

The HRC techs that work in the Museum who maintain all the race bikes and cars have the luckiest job in the world.

Must be mental to be able to work on these and to touch them.
 
The V5 was one of the best sounding engines ever made for me.

The HRC techs that work in the Museum who maintain all the race bikes and cars have the luckiest job in the world.

Must be mental to be able to work on these and to touch them.
I honestly think all of the Gen1 MotoGP bikes sounded great with an edge to the RCV of course.

The Yamaha crossplane was novel for that time, the Cube we mentioned earlier, the screamer Desmocedici sounded raw and powerful as it was, the Kawa screamer was divine, even the Suzuki XRE0 wasn’t half bad.

I understand the technical reasons for having a big bang engine, but I’m honestly tired of the same old drone from every single camp right now.

The last time something sounded a bit different in the current formula was the 75 degree Aprilia, which was almost musical (But went like sh!t).
 

FIM trying to get an engine freeze in for the final two seasons of the 1000cc formula.

This will all but ensure Ducati victories in 2025 and 2026.
I guess they are trying to protect the teams from themselves/stop them bankrupting themselves to some extent, I am not sure it would be a good idea for Aprilia to invest large amounts of money in the dying days of the current formula given their financial situations, and even VW Audi seems to have their problems financially at the moment as well. Dorna/Liberty also may think there is enough interest from internal Ducati competition to last the next 2 years, with large numbers of followers of the sport wanting to see MM succeed, and also large numbers wanting to see Bagnaia beat him. Even if MM was dominant that would probably be good for the box office, casual fans are not necessarily put off by a lack of close racing.

But engine freezes in motorsport have had a tendency to entrench advantages, and Ducati seem to have as big an advantage as any marque has had in the modern era.
 
people privy to the inner workings of Ducati Corse remarked that the biggest difference that Gigi made was not the techno gadgets, but the work culture.

Prior to his arrival, everyone at Ducati Corse worked in silos. The engine guys wanted to build the most powerful desmo engine in the world, without a care how it affects handling. The chassis guys couldn’t care less about packaging and heat management. And so on.

He introduced a system to rotate engineers between departments and suddenly, everyone started to understand what the others were up to. The aero and gadgets came later.

Carlo Pernat hired Gigi in the 90s at Aprilia and he had this same approach that led to their all conquering 250cc GP bike. Even their 500 could turn a few heads on a good day.

Post Gigi Aprilia decided that chopping up an F1 engine to make a V3 would lead to an all conquering 4 stroke GP bike. We all know how that went.

2004 Yamaha worked similar to the Gigi way. Looks like they are slowly heading down that road again, which should lead to good things.

HRC seems to still be stuck in the old ways, with Bradl/ Nakagami saying the guys in Tokyo have no clue what the European test team is up to.
As I recall Yamaha came up with their first real MotoGP engine led by Furusawa in fairly short order for Rossi's advent, and I suspect they can come up with a good engine, even if they switch to a V4, fairly quickly again.

The aero stuff is the problem, I doubt Honda or Yamaha have much internal expertise, well organised or not, Honda fundamentally are opposed to it from an engineering philosophy viewpoint, and wind tunnels are expensive.
 
Too far even for me. He tried to run him off the track is all as far as I am concerned.

I have to say the GPOne thing from today is close to deranged imo though. This is what happens when you are a mega celebrity living in a bubble, and he seems to have continued to live in the same bubble 9 years on from 2015. My gripe against him is not really to do with MM who can look after himself, but for his involvement in the persecution of other opponents, and if he is still stung in his retirement by the one that got away despite his absolutely undeniable greatness I perhaps see karma in operation.

Well said.
I agree that people should just stop talking to him about it.
As should Rossi. If he really wants to affect MMs riding performance he should learn to just shut the F up. It just fuels Marc. He appears to use it as more motivation. That single minded focus he has to ride at a level others cant just seems to go up a notch imo.

Sorry late to the thread, but that point made by Michael was sad but true it seems.
 
As I recall Yamaha came up with their first real MotoGP engine led by Furusawa in fairly short order for Rossi's advent, and I suspect they can come up with a good engine, even if they switch to a V4, fairly quickly again.

The aero stuff is the problem, I doubt Honda or Yamaha have much internal expertise, well organised or not, Honda fundamentally are opposed to it from an engineering philosophy viewpoint, and wind tunnels are expensive.
IIRC Toyota farmed out the engineering of the 1jz head to Yamaha for their expertise rather than carrying out the work internally. I would certainly back them to have the expertise to come up with an excellent v4.
 
The aero stuff is the problem, I doubt Honda or Yamaha have much internal expertise, well organised or not, Honda fundamentally are opposed to it from an engineering philosophy viewpoint, and wind tunnels are expensive.
Yamaha is working with Dallara, who has done a lot of single seater aero. They also hired Marco Nicotra from Ducati, who was Gigi’s go-to aero man. It shows in their current aero package which looks a lot more integrated and closer to the Europeans.

The incremental updates may not see like a lot, but compare last week’s M1 do Quartararo’s title winning M1 and you’ll see a ton of differences.

IIRC Toyota farmed out the engineering of the 1jz head to Yamaha for their expertise rather than carrying out the work internally. I would certainly back them to have the expertise to come up with an excellent v4.
Not only that, Yamaha have done entire engines in F1.

 
Isn't this what Toyota did in the automotive world years ago? Lean Six Sigma approach....more or less? Good strategy, obviously.
Lean was Toyota, and at its core it was a waste management too.
As little inventory and shelf life as possible, streamline the production.

Harks back to the introduction of industralization in Japan, and their reliance on resources from abroad.

The Japanese way is still very much pre-Meiji restoration in my opinion. There is still pride and preferance in learning a skill and developing that throughout your career, learning from your seniors.

This is juxatposed by the creative anarchy of the Western dog eat dog approach where you have plenty of buttom up driven change as well.

Changing the culture will take time and plenty of effort. Was listening to an Adrian Newye interview, where he talked about how he needed to give some of his staff their p45s in order to change the mindset of the team as a whole.

Yamaha have made the right steps, and I do believe that it was the key to Quartararo staying. HRC as far as I know, haven't made any significant changes yet. Having the workhorses of Zarco, Mir, Marini and Aleix will not have the company work to a different tune. Yamaha on the other hand have turned the motorbike racing company around.
 

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