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Gaz said:
Absolutely Marquez has mental toughness and I would place him 2nd to MD of those that I can immediately recall - my laughing comment was aimed at commentary of sport that will say how 'tough' person x is because they competed with what is/was not a significant life changing injury (ie. footballers who finish the game after suffering a cramp, or who came into the game on painkillers due to a rib injury style).



The reason I will always say MD is the toughest I have seen in sporting terms (and will use direct comparison to Marquez) is that MD's primary leg injury was before he had any world titles where Marquez has 8 already. Marquez' championships remove the self pressure but he will want more, he will not stop (I genuinely believe that he will want to beat all of VR's numbers at least and set new marks).



The sheer will of MD to come back from that leg injury, barely able to walk and almost win the title, waste the next year still recovering and then come and do what he did and win 5 on the trot to me is unparrelled in any sport of which I am aware. The guy was f'ed up by doctors and yet still managed to do what he did and create his records and legacy.



Marquez has the records and legacy already, the rest is icing on the cake and if he goes on and wins another 5 or 7 titles it will just add to his record and show that mentally the accident did not impact him, MD had to start making the cake.



Written with total bias on my part :D
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Sure, but Mick did not have the field strength Marquez has for his wins.
Rainey was paralyzed in 93 [emoji3525]and Schwantz lost a great deal of his mojo after winning the title and losing his career competitor.
I would also argue that on the bike the arm and shoulder are under more stress than the leg.
The forces applied under braking are huge.
I am an Australian but I am a motoGP fan ahead of patriotism.
As a rider I rate Marquez higher than anybody else I have seen.
Mental toughness between him and Doohan? Not sure I can make the call.
 
Not the biggest Doohan fan but although he made some lame excuses later in his career if he didn’t win (blaming everything and everyone except himself) he still owns one of the coolest quotes of the modern era after Schwanz beat Rainey at Hockenheim in 90 or 91. After the race where he finished third after leading somewhat briefly, a reporter asked him what happened. “I got tired I guess.” Last time I remembered him being graceful in defeat.
Obviously still one of the greats. He had a Honda when it was an asset to have one.
 
Gaz said:
Absolutely Marquez has mental toughness and I would place him 2nd to MD of those that I can immediately recall - my laughing comment was aimed at commentary of sport that will say how 'tough' person x is because they competed with what is/was not a significant life changing injury (ie. footballers who finish the game after suffering a cramp, or who came into the game on painkillers due to a rib injury style).

The reason I will always say MD is the toughest I have seen in sporting terms (and will use direct comparison to Marquez) is that MD's primary leg injury was before he had any world titles where Marquez has 8 already. Marquez' championships remove the self pressure but he will want more, he will not stop (I genuinely believe that he will want to beat all of VR's numbers at least and set new marks).

The sheer will of MD to come back from that leg injury, barely able to walk and almost win the title, waste the next year still recovering and then come and do what he did and win 5 on the trot to me is unparrelled in any sport of which I am aware. The guy was f'ed up by doctors and yet still managed to do what he did and create his records and legacy.

Marquez has the records and legacy already, the rest is icing on the cake and if he goes on and wins another 5 or 7 titles it will just add to his record and show that mentally the accident did not impact him, MD had to start making the cake.

Written with total bias on my part :D
Click to expand...

Aussies are built different. You guys break bones and just rub some dirt on it call it healed m8.
 
warthog1 said:
Sure, but Mick did not have the field strength Marquez has for his wins.
Rainey was paralyzed in 93 [emoji3525]and Schwantz lost a great deal of his mojo after winning the title and losing his career competitor.
I would also argue that on the bike the arm and shoulder are under more stress than the leg.
The forces applied under braking are huge.
I am an Australian but I am a motoGP fan ahead of patriotism.
As a rider I rate Marquez higher than anybody else I have seen.
Mental toughness between him and Doohan? Not sure I can make the call.
Click to expand...


All good, but with field strength I would argue that at the time of Doohan's injury the field was as strong - he had Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz, Gardner to name a few of the World champions and at the time he was smashing them .

Absolutely correct though that during the 5 straight reign the strength of the field was limited but the only reason MD did not already have at least one title was that accident (he has miles in front in the point at the time).

With strength, that would depend as I have also seen many comments from riders saying that legs can impact heavily due to the changing of direction - but we also should not forget that MD also had a shoulder injury and still one the title with that (rode into the barrier out of the corkscrew at Laguna).

As I state, I do not hide my MD bias but I do not rate him the best rider I have ever seen
 
Gaz said:
All good, but with field strength I would argue that at the time of Doohan's injury the field was as strong - he had Lawson, Rainey, Schwantz, Gardner to name a few of the World champions and at the time he was smashing them .



Absolutely correct though that during the 5 straight reign the strength of the field was limited but the only reason MD did not already have at least one title was that accident (he has miles in front in the point at the time).



With strength, that would depend as I have also seen many comments from riders saying that legs can impact heavily due to the changing of direction - but we also should not forget that MD also had a shoulder injury and still one the title with that (rode into the barrier out of the corkscrew at Laguna).



As I state, I do not hide my MD bias but I do not rate him the best rider I have ever seen
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He was smashing them with the first big bang motor.
I remember a Rainey quote about Doohan just tipping the bike in and riding away with better drive out of the corners.
As you say, when he won his first, Rainey wasn't there, Schwantz had lost his mojo and Gardner gone also.

Gardner was never at the level of Schwantz Rainey and Lawson imo.
 
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warthog1 said:
He was smashing them with the first big bang motor.
I remember a Rainey quote about Doohan just tipping the bike in and riding away with better drive out of the corners.
As you say, when he won his first, Rainey wasn't there, Schwantz had lost his mojo and Gardner gone also.

Gardner was never at the level of Schwantz Rainey and Lawson imo.
Click to expand...


Totally agree.

To me Lawson is so under-rated and so easily forgotten when legends are spoken of, but he is #2 on the list of riders who I have seen (Gardner is not in the same postcode).

The one race win on the Cagiva in wet(ish) conditions remains as one of the best race wins around.

For anyone interested - japanese commentary (click the watch on youtube option)
 
Bern1 said:
Not the biggest Doohan fan but although he made some lame excuses later in his career if he didn’t win (blaming everything and everyone except himself) he still owns one of the coolest quotes of the modern era after Schwanz beat Rainey at Hockenheim in 90 or 91. After the race where he finished third after leading somewhat briefly, a reporter asked him what happened. “I got tired I guess.” Last time I remembered him being graceful in defeat.
Obviously still one of the greats. He had a Honda when it was an asset to have one.
Click to expand...

He didn’t do much losing late in his career.

I am a big fan, and posted as Doohanfan on another forum, but I probably would rate peak Lawson ahead of him, and again like Gaz remember 1992 when he was smashing Rainey, Schwartz and latter years Lawson. He encountered the 500s when they were brutal to which he and Rainey can both attest, and he and JB as well as Lawson might just have had something to do with the Honda becoming the bike to ride. I don’t rate Gardner with the all time greats, but he had the balls to ride the Honda 500 when it was absolutely brutal. Footage of him having a massive tank slapper and just continuing on as though nothing had happened has been posted on here in days of yore.
 
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michaelm said:
He didn’t do much losing late in his career.

I am a big fan, and posted as Doohanfan on another forum, but I probably would rate peak Lawson ahead of him, and again like Gaz remember 1992 when he was smashing Rainey, Schwartz and latter years Lawson. He encountered the 500s at their most brutal to which he and Rainey can both attest, and he and JB as well as Lawson might just have had something to do with the Honda becoming the bike to ride. I don’t rate Gardner with the all time greats, but he had the balls to ride the Honda 500 at its most brutal, which was absolutely brutal. Footage of him having a massive tank slapper and just continuing on as though nothing had happened has been posted on here in days of yore.
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Steady Eddie was very good. Methodical, persistent, determined but very controlled.
By the time Doohan had enough time to adapt to the 500cc NSR and reach his potential Eddie was past his peak.
I rate Doohan ahead of Eddie in terms of outright speed and control at the edge of tyre adhesion.
He made that bike do what he demanded of it.
Forced it down into the corner and just rode the sliding farker over the limit.
I rate Rainey ahead of Lawson too.
Peak Rainey and Doohan on equal machinery would have been an awesome season.
Doohan had a significant machinery advantage in '92.
That big bang NSR just had so much drive compared to the rest.
 
Yes, the «bike to have» at the time colors these rankings discussions. Some years you just had to have machinery by X to be in contention.

That said, I rate Lawson at the top.

Ago won a lot of titles but how much of that is due to him having «the machineto have» before the Japanese showed up.
 
Bern1 said:
Yes, the «bike to have» at the time colors these rankings discussions. Some years you just had to have machinery by X to be in contention.

That said, I rate Lawson at the top.

Ago won a lot of titles but how much of that is due to him having «the machineto have» before the Japanese showed up.
Click to expand...

I rate Lawson as I have already said. I think you are a little tough on Mick in regard to bike advantage, my recollection is of him being a second a lap quicker than the other Honda riders all the way through practice, then the other riders being given his settings which didn’t best please Mick. Lawson and Erv Kanemoto contributed significantly to the taming of the bike prior to Mick though, and the factory Yamaha chassis in 1993 was diabolical, iirc Wayne Rainey went with a customer chassis.
 
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michaelm said:
I rate Lawson as I have already said. I think iupuvare a little tough on Mick in regard to bike advantage, my recollection is of him being a second a lap quicker than the other Honda riders all the way through practice, then the other riders being given his settings which didn’t best please Mick. Lawson and Erv Kanemoto contributed significantly to the taming of the bike prior to Mick though, and the factory Yamaha chassis in 1993 was diabolical, iirc Wayne Rainey went with a customer chassis.
Click to expand...


Rainey asked for his old chassis first and was refused by Yamaha, initially they said it had been crushed. He then went to the French Roc chassis and got better results and was on his way to the title. Yamaha forced him back onto their 1993 chassis and the rest is history.
Supposedly the in trend practice of spreading the gravel out in a wave/fan shape with peaks and troughs, sent Rainey and his bike into the violent barrel roll that did the damage. It’s been said that a conventional gravel bed would have slowed him safely without much fuss.
Ironically the fan shaped gravel originated from F1, who soon stopped doing it, after finding cars skipped over the peaks instead of digging in gently and stopping.
 
yamfan said:
Rainey asked for his old chassis first and was refused by Yamaha, initially they said it had been crushed. He then went to the French Roc chassis and got better results and was on his way to the title. Yamaha forced him back onto their 1993 chassis and the rest is history.
Supposedly the in trend practice of spreading the gravel out in a wave/fan shape with peaks and troughs, sent Rainey and his bike into the violent barrel roll that did the damage. It’s been said that a conventional gravel bed would have slowed him safely without much fuss.
Ironically the fan shaped gravel originated from F1, who soon stopped doing it, after finding cars skipped over the peaks instead of digging in gently and stopping.
Click to expand...

I was unfortunately watching that race live.
 
michaelm said:
I was unfortunately watching that race live.
Click to expand...
Likewise.

As harrowing it is to recollect, I'd be interested in your take on that Mike. I've since read that the Doctors from the Clinica Mobile knew immediately from the way he fell that it had resulted in paralysis. To the lay viewer such as myself, it looked innocuous just a question of whether he would be fit for the penultimate round and home race at Laguna. I recall speculation that he wouldn't be able to ride due to a broken collarbone. In the absence of the internet, rumours and speculation were confined to the paddock or tentatively circulated by telephone and fax. A few hours later, the terrible news broke.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
Likewise.

As harrowing it is to recollect, I'd be interested in your take on that Mike. I've since read that the Doctors from the Clinica Mobile knew immediately from the way he fell that it had resulted in paralysis. To the lay viewer such as myself, it looked innocuous just a question of whether he would be fit for the penultimate round and home race at Laguna. I recall speculation that he wouldn't be able to ride due to a broken collarbone. In the absence of the internet, rumours and speculation were confined to the paddock or tentatively circulated by telephone and fax. A few hours later, the terrible news broke.
Click to expand...

No, I thought immediately that he was paraplegic as well, the way he hit and was moving.

If you are still in touch with Jumkie give him my regards, he is much missed as are you and Roger.
 
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michaelm said:
No, I thought immediately that he was paraplegic as well, the way he hit and was moving.

If you are still on touch with Jumkie give him my regards, he is much missed as are you and Roger.
Click to expand...

I saw the crash in a documentary. I think it was faster. It didn't look very violent but sometimes hitting just right can be catastrophic. It reminds me of one of the best bmx racers of all time Aussie Sam Willoughby. He looped out at a local practice in San Diego landing on his butt. The crash seemed so minor but he hit just wrong and severed his spinal cord.
 
For sure. I’ve seen and experienced that weird disconnect between how a crash looks and how much it affects the rider. We’ve all seen guys crash at speeds over 100 mph and they just walk away. I’ve seen guys go down at 30 mph and get ambulanced away with green stick fractures and missing fingers. For all the romance about 2-strokes (and I love ‘em still) and the consequent rise of four-stroke technology, it really is a positive step safety-wise, in that we don’t seen nearly as many dramatic high-sides as we did in the old days. Whenever I watch old races where they still had hay bales for protection from walls and railing, I shudder when the riders get too close. I shattered my hip being high-sided into hay bales at Loudon.
 

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