This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

2023 Cota - Red Bull Grand Prix of The Americas

I am no doubt an old man shouting at clouds, but I hate NASCAR and am none too keen on so called V8 Supercars, despite being an avid fan of Australian tin top racing back in the day of Gary Wilmington.

If someone is one minute better over the course of a race they should win by one minute Imo, not lose in a last lap stoush after a capricious yellow flag/a back marker crash on the second last lap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaz, Mick D and Bern1
His bad starts, and he cant seem to ride with a full tank...I haven't watched any sprints, does he do better there?
 
Mrpurple said:
His bad starts, and he cant seem to ride with a full tank...I haven't watched any sprints, does he do better there?
Click to expand...
Portugal 5th
Argentina 7th
USA 10th

Vinales is coming 4th in the championship so perhaps he's doing better than we are perceiving
 
michaelm said:
I am no doubt an old man shouting at clouds, but I hate NASCAR and am none too keen on so called V8 Supercars, despite being an avid fan of Australian tin top racing back in the day of Gary Wilmington.

If someone is one minute better over the course of a race they should win by one minute Imo, not lose in a last lap stoush after a capricious yellow flag/a back marker crash on the second last lap.
Click to expand...
This was meant as a reply to Gaz, with whom I share common history in regard to Australian motorsports in ancient times.
 
mikesbytes said:
Portugal 5th
Argentina 7th
USA 10th

Vinales is coming 4th in the championship so perhaps he's doing better than we are perceiving
Click to expand...
I can’t really see it happening with Vinales, but Mir backed into a world title despite pretty much never having dominant pace on a race weekend. Vinales has exhibited such pace, if very occasionally. The phase of the moon and the alignment of the stars would have to be right a large number of times, but who knows if Bagnaia et al keep crashing ?, which is not impossible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mikesbytes
warthog1 said:
Perhaps, they have a history of not listening if you read the input from some previous riders.
It has also been postulated on here that MM perhaps lacks development skills and may not be that clear with his direction. That would make it hard for engineers even if they did listen, if that is the case.
In any case Honda is going through an extended period of not scoring many points, at least as bad as anytime I recall.
There is certainly reason, given the lack of results, for engineers to listen.
Given how much running a motoGP team and providing motorcycles would be costing, it makes no sense not to listen to the input of those who are paid to ride them fast.
You would expect if it is suggested there is a weakness and the results, or lack thereof, back that up, they would take account of those suggestions and attempt to address them.
Not listening makes no sense and you could argue, amounts to flushing money down the toilet.
Click to expand...

Corporate Japanese are super pragmatic . . . up to a point. But when it comes to the overweening pride in their engineering, they can be quite obstinate. Ducati was like that, until they finally got sick and tired of not winning championships. But it took ages for them to start using the current style frame. Both Honda and Ducati have a history of over-dependence on the hiring of ultra-brilliant riders capable of riding around technical deficiencies.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bern1
Keshav said:
Corporate Japanese are super pragmatic . . . up to a point. But when it comes to the overweening pride in their engineering, they can be quite obstinate. Ducati was like that, until they finally got sick and tired of not winning championships. But it took ages for them to start using the current style frame. Both Honda and Ducati have a history of over-dependence on the hiring of ultra-brilliant riders capable of riding around technical deficiencies.
Click to expand...
Sure Honda have had brilliant riders. They have one now.
They are at a point now where it would appear even he is unable to bridge the gap to Ducati.
I don't see any of the current riders being able to do better on that machine.
They will have to listen to input or they will stay also rans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keshav and Bern1
warthog1 said:
Sure Honda have had brilliant riders. They have one now.
They are at a point now where it would appear even he is unable to bridge the gap to Ducati.
I don't see any of the current riders being able to do better on that machine.
They will have to listen to input or they will stay also rans.
Click to expand...
Then hopefully Honda will listen to Rins and let him do his thing with their full support, I think he is the only one on the Honda squad now that has the ability to put it all together !
 
Ironic that Rins is not on the factory team. I can’t figure whey Honda picked Mir over him. Maybe it wasn’t up to Honda….

I find it interesting how little riders actually change over the course of the years. Very few, it seems, are able to look at themselves accurately, see where there could be improvement, then set about improving.
 
Why 9 Riders Crashed Out at COTA

TLDR; bumps, different types of pavement, unpredictable winds, and cool temps


Schwantz: MotoGP bikes are easier than the 500s

Not a lot of meat on the bone. Interesting observation is that Schwantz thinks the sport looks better to the eye in the modern era, but he believes the view from the inside of the sport is less glamorous. The riders can't make as much difference and take the same risks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Furiosa and Keshav
"The Japanese are different. They stick to their positions."
Schwantz

Like I said
 
mylexicon said:
Why 9 Riders Crashed Out at COTA

TLDR; bumps, different types of pavement, unpredictable winds, and cool temps


Schwantz: MotoGP bikes are easier than the 500s

Not a lot of meat on the bone. Interesting observation is that Schwantz thinks the sport looks better to the eye in the modern era, but he believes the view from the inside of the sport is less glamorous. The riders can't make as much difference and take the same risks.
Click to expand...
Pretty much what we have been saying, but I guess more than a few of us followed the sport in his day.

The safety aspect is one issue. Some tile changes have been justified by Dorna on the grounds of safety, but there are actually more crashes now, partly I believe as a result of the sprint races as many on here predicted, I also wonder with the ride height devices and aerodynamic aids the point where the bike lets go is hard to predict, which is pretty much what Bagnaia said after his most recent crash.
 
michaelm said:
I can’t really see it happening with Vinales, but Mir backed into a world title despite pretty much never having dominant pace on a race weekend. Vinales has exhibited such pace, if very occasionally. The phase of the moon and the alignment of the stars would have to be right a large number of times, but who knows if Bagnaia et al keep crashing ?, which is not impossible.
Click to expand...
He was the most consistent riders champion since 2019 which is saying something.


warthog1 said:
Sure Honda have had brilliant riders. They have one now.
They are at a point now where it would appear even he is unable to bridge the gap to Ducati.
I don't see any of the current riders being able to do better on that machine.
They will have to listen to input or they will stay also rans.
Click to expand...
Casey Stoner (Ducati): First time?


DavidSim said:
Then hopefully Honda will listen to Rins and let him do his thing with their full support, I think he is the only one on the Honda squad now that has the ability to put it all together !
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get too carried away yet. Rins is second only to Marquez in terms of wins at COTA (including Moto3 and 2). Rins did well, but one race at a track favourable to the rider, and questionably the bike more than other tracks, is not a bar I'm going to use to judge the season.

Bern1 said:
Ironic that Rins is not on the factory team. I can’t figure whey Honda picked Mir over him. Maybe it wasn’t up to Honda….

I find it interesting how little riders actually change over the course of the years. Very few, it seems, are able to look at themselves accurately, see where there could be improvement, then set about improving.
Click to expand...
IIRC it was interesting that last yr everyone was saying Mir has a more point and shoot style which would suit the Honda more. I think one reason Mir got a nod over Rins was the fact he has a title.

Like you say though, who knows. I just wish Honda made a bike sooner rather than later that wasn't a career killer.
 
In 2022 Rins got 173 points while Mir had a shocker of a season scoring 87 points. Mir did miss 4 races in a row vs Rin's 1.
At what point would of Honda looked at Mir and Rins results before acquiring them? What other factors would of been of major consideration?
2021 Mir got 208 points while Rins got 99. Mir didn't miss a race while Rins missed 2
 
mikesbytes said:
In 2022 Rins got 173 points while Mir had a shocker of a season scoring 87 points. Mir did miss 4 races in a row vs Rin's 1.
At what point would of Honda looked at Mir and Rins results before acquiring them? What other factors would of been of major consideration?
2021 Mir got 208 points while Rins got 99. Mir didn't miss a race while Rins missed 2
Click to expand...
I assume Honda felt they both had potential, we shall see, so far so good for Rins !
 
  • Like
Reactions: mikesbytes
mikesbytes said:
In 2022 Rins got 173 points while Mir had a shocker of a season scoring 87 points. Mir did miss 4 races in a row vs Rin's 1.
At what point would of Honda looked at Mir and Rins results before acquiring them? What other factors would of been of major consideration?
2021 Mir got 208 points while Rins got 99. Mir didn't miss a race while Rins missed 2
Click to expand...
Could be a number of factors but I suspect that a World Title for Mir helped in some way as we have often heard that HRC makes decisions at head office with regards to recruitment. I say this as head office may go 'world title = very very good" (which of course it does) but they are not at track or in paddock to get a general feel of the other aspects of riding and team work offered.

Or, it could well have come to competing personal sponsors as well (not sure of Rins has sponsors that compete) but I do suspect that as with many teams, sponsorship (either who they bring or who existing sponors will take).

There could also have been pressure from DORNA to take Mir over Rins as it would look poor were Mir, a recent world title winner end up on a satellite team so soon after the title.

Any number of individual things could well have combined
 
  • Like
Reactions: mikesbytes

Similar threads

B
MotoGP: 2015 Round 16 - Pramac Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)
Replies
674
Views
76K
#22
#22

Recent Discussions