2021 Gran Premio Octo di San Marino e della Riviera di Rimini

Bern1 said:

Misfit and Mdub I get your point. But….there has to be progress even if you’re a special rider like MM.

Since JL is so different from MM, how would his development help MM?

Part of the tool bag of a modern rider or driver is the ability to communicate with the team’s engineers about different problems and solutions and the ability to discern which of those advance performance. Then of course everybody has to actually want to advance.

The days of just getting on and riding it are over. (That’s what Hailwood said he did and I would argue he was just as special as MM.)

Changing eras require changing skills.

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Keshav said:

If Miller didn’t consistently start out guns blazing, and then fade half-way through the race, I’d look to the tires. He just can’t maintain concentration for the whole of the race. No mystery there.

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Bern1 said:

Great race. Loved the glimpse Fabs takes at Bags’ rear tire, classic! Great rides from both of course.

Stars fading for Miller and Mir. Their trending performances do not bode well for better future results. Same for Rins. The ever younger and faster riders are coming.

At least MM decided he was going to finish the race. That’s the best you can say about his performance. Sure you can say the Honda sucks. As their leading racer, Marquez shares a responsibility in the performance of the bike regarding development. Here’s where the politics of negotiation come into play in all areas of endeavor. If the lead rider just rides the bike without being an influence on development, then look what happens. He has to somehow get the big H to build him something that he can match Yamaha and Ducati on. This means he has to know what that might be and nudge the team in that direction. And change that direction if it turns out to be wrong down the line. This might be a skill that he lacks.

Aprilia still missing that little bit. Mav looks happy, but for how long?

Best season so in a long while!

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michaelm said:

I disagree, it is still on him but he can’t get a soft tire to last a whole race. I don’t think he has much future at Ducati when most of the other Ducati riders, including Bastianini on a 2 year old Avintia Ducati, can manage their tries much better.

I have been wondering what has happened to Zarco btw. To don a tinfoil hat I wouldn’t put it past Ducati given their long term attitude to their riders to have turned the bike down with someone in mind to replace him.

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Roll call, to all of Keshav's mates on this list and current posters.

How many of you invited Keshav to join them at the American GP?

He's been here for 15 years. I'm sure at least one of you invited him...right??????

Come on guys. 15 years. Is it conceivably possible that he has not one friend?

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michaelm said:

I haven’t really ever seen much evidence that MM is a development rider, or that he has much racecraft either.

He is simply the fastest rider in history, and hasn’t needed anything else hitherto imo. It didn’t matter to him if the Honda was a generally bad bike as long as it was predictably bad, which the current bike isn’t. I do still tend to think the bike was designed around a tire and software which are no longer available and isn’t really fixable by development by any rider, while agreeing that when he was totally invincible in 2014 that bike was a product of Pedrosa +/- Stoner. Their current situation is partly down to Darth Puig again imo, who showed Dani the door quite likely to pay off an old score.

On the other hand as I have said before this season for me still resembles Mick Doohan’s 1994 season, and I don’t rule out a subsequent Doohan like run from MM with a an off season of physical conditioning and full off season/pre-season testing. If there is no fix for the Honda I could see him going elsewhere despite all the HRC money, he does want to surpassRossi fairly badly methinks.

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Bern1 said:

Interesting comments regarding MM’s racecraft and development skills. I tend to agree, along with the assessment of him being simply the fastest rider in history so far.

Regarding tires, everybody is getting randomly the same ...., so whether you are talking MM, Fabs or Miller, the spin of the wherl applies to all.

As to whether MM will be able to sustain a comeback similar to Doohan in 94, we shall have to wait and see.

The way I see it, adapting to new and unforeseen circumstances such as a damaged body is a daunting task. Doohan was able to do this after his accident and go on a roll of wins and championships. It remains to be seen whether MM can do the same.

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Keshav said:

Maybe if he could talk and chew gum at the same time, ie, maintain the required awareness to make the tires last, while racing, he would have results equal to other Ducati riders. As you said Bastinanini could do it on a two-year old bike and he's a rookie. I get that you like Jack, but if he's on equal equipment and getting poor results, the fail-factor is Jack. Just count the number of times he's either jackrabbited to the front only to fall back after 8 laps or crash while in site of a sure podium finish. I'm sure he's a really nice guy, but he just not in the same league as the other Ducati riders. Sorry to say, neither is Zarco, who I originally thought had huge potential. I don't think it's any conspiracy. Zarco hasn't shown signs of realizing his hoped for potential for several seasons now.

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Bern1 said:

Interesting comments regarding MM’s racecraft and development skills. I tend to agree, along with the assessment of him being simply the fastest rider in history so far.

Regarding tires, everybody is getting randomly the same ...., so whether you are talking MM, Fabs or Miller, the spin of the wherl applies to all.

As to whether MM will be able to sustain a comeback similar to Doohan in 94, we shall have to wait and see.

The way I see it, adapting to new and unforeseen circumstances such as a damaged body is a daunting task. Doohan was able to do this after his accident and go on a roll of wins and championships. It remains to be seen whether MM can do the same.

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michaelm said:

I meant Mick’s 1993 season of course when he didn’t contend and spent the season getting back up to speed. If MM doesn!’t look competitive next season that is when I would consider that he will never be the same.

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Keshav said:

I expect his not being up to speed is a combination of physical and mental, tho, knowing me - I tend to think it’s more about the time lost, away from the track, concerns over whether he will ever be totally recuperated, concerns over HRC’s lack of will to improve handling while other manufacturers are making steady gains, his competitors also improving as well. You can bet your sweet ... Marquez will be training extra hard, double time in the off season.

Re: what many here have speculated about the possibility of MM being on a Ducati etc…. Who here knows how many years he has left on his current contract? One gets the feeling his original plan has been to be a Honda Superstar from cradle to grave, but, if he can’t be properly competitive next year, I would think he’d be pragmatic enough to do a Lawson and go with Ducati.

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JPSLotus said:

My biggest takeaway from this race is that we're really getting a good look of when riders have to ride to time deltas, and what happens as a result, which is a lot of processional racing. Yes the announcers on BT Sport were going on about how Misano is difficult to overtake, but I can also remember many cracking races here in spite of that.

It's starting to look a bit like F1 out there more and more. I put F1 on another burner because the actual racing is pretty .... for the most part nowadays there, yet it is starting to look like Dorna wants to emulate them for some moronic reason.

Bagnaia rode well as did Fabio. Was hoping to see maybe a last lap dice with the two, but they both did what they needed to.

To echo others, Miller doesn't look great any longer, but this is plays into my posts earlier in the season that I don't think he was a great signing IMO. He's a competent number 2 rider in a team, but I'd never build a team around him...much as was the case with Crutchlow.

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Keshav said:

I think most would agree, this is largely a result of rider tactics evolving overmuch around tire preservation. Much as I have approved of control tires, I wonder if a good tire war might change that, tho I suspect that's just wishful thinking. If Bridgestone came back all the Michelin riders would want Bridgestones as before. Not a cure - but I think it would make for better racing. The focus on tire preservation isn't going away any time soon. Every time tires get better, riders find a way to exploit that for better lap times, which burns out the tires faster. A vicious cycle, as it were.

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Bern1 said:

Tires have been the limiting factor in bike racing for a while now as the horsepower continues to overcook the tire.

I have never been a fan of control tires in any class, let alone the premier prototype class.

If every team were allowed to run the tires they wanted, for sure the tires brought to a race would all be the best that manufacturer can produce.

Then we could finally let go of the bitching and moaning about tires and how .... xyz tire is.

The way it is now, whichever tire supplier has the contract has a “safe space.”

Which is a crock of .... situation for the prototype class.

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Keshav said:

I think most would agree, this is largely a result of rider tactics evolving overmuch around tire preservation. Much as I have approved of control tires, I wonder if a good tire war might change that, tho I suspect that's just wishful thinking. If Bridgestone came back all the Michelin riders would want Bridgestones as before. Not a cure - but I think it would make for better racing. The focus on tire preservation isn't going away any time soon. Every time tires get better, riders find a way to exploit that for better lap times, which burns out the tires faster. A vicious cycle, as it were.

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michaelm said:

Seriously, .... off.

Anyone who has issues with Keshav can deal with them on their own cognisance without any help from an obsessed moron.

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JPSLotus said:

Michelin and Bridgestone supplied tires in F1 in 2005 that were mandated to last the entire race. While Bridgestone got it wrong, hence Ferrari only winning the lone race at the debacle that was Indianapolis that year, both tires could be pushed for the length of the grand prix. Many drivers have talked about how they could push for full stints or full races in bygone years. The knowledge and ability to make tires that can hold up for the duration of a GP on a premier class bike is there. They are just choosing not to make these sort of tires available, no doubt due to Dorna's machinations of trying to turn every race into a lottery ticket.

Problem is whether it's one supplier or more than one supplier, there's going to be a huge tradeoff as a result. It's difficult to hit all of the checkboxes. That being said, if you're selling MotoGP as a top prototype series, the teams should be free to seek out whatever tire solutions they would like to have...assuming a tire manufacturer wants to get involved. Why stop at 2 tire companies? Let 3 or 4 supply, whether it's the addition of Pirelli and/or Dunlop. If this is to be a showcase race series, show the best tires have to offer at least.

I'm probably beating a dead horse on this. I just think the addition of the hole shot devices, coupled with the wings on the fairings, and the present state of the tire supplier, is going to come back to bite Dorna in the .... They've created the illusion that the entire grid is competitive when it's clear more than half the grid is simply not competitive, or has their competitiveness determined by whatever that weekend's tire allocation happens to be. I don't expect all bikes to work at every circuit, but there is in my opinion way too much variance in what can be expected from the tires session to session, or race to race. It's ....... stupid and the obsession with parity needs to .... off.

They really need a new engine formula. We've been stuck with the present one for a decade now and it's run its course in my opinion. While it's unlikely to occur, I think this might be the time to revisit the 2-stroke engines with a look to modern R&D design to see what can be done with it.

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