2020 Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

michaelm · Sep 21, 2020

p4p1 said:
I don’t disagree about his insight, it’s excellent and he was a top rider. His monotone voice puts me to sleep though.

I think at the end of the day they have to set a rule in black and white. Which they did, leave the track limits 3x = warning, 5x = long lap. Deciding whether or not a rider gained an advantage is too arbitrary to apply consistently and as RD have shown they’re not consistent when handing out penalties that are judgement calls.

I think this weekend Fabios behaviour after the demotion and complaining about the 1x Mir left the track etc has lost him some fans. Not that I’m judging him for it, I’ve done worse in when I’ve felt I’ve been wronged by sports officials. Mir on the other hand continues to gain more fans with his balls and/or precise overtaking.

Another point, after Fabio’s tear off ended Jacks race and Pecco believes he hit a tear off that caused him to crash, do tear offs now need to be replaced?

I don’t have a great problem with the rule particularly if he got quite a number of warnings and the system which apprises the riders of warnings is robust.

Come to think of it, I would be happy if they made the rule retrospective, extending back to the Laguna Seca 2007 race.

seusouber · Sep 21, 2020

I'm finding it quite hard to understand track limits penalties.

My read is that if you don't gain any advantage on touching the green you get a warning after 3 occurances, and a long lap penalty when you go off track 2 more times.

However, when apparently you get an advantage you have to drop a position.

It happened to Mir on Austria on the start, and actually at Misano 2 he went on the green just before overtaking Pol Espargaro.

Also at Austria, i tend to agree with Mir and Suzuki that Pol should not be 3rd after going off track. Yes, riders may be pushed out track (was not the case) but if it was gravel there was no way he could come back to be 3rd, 4th or even 5th.
Also, it always happened that way on nobody seemed to care that much.
Jerez is famous, Rossi on gibernau or Marquez on Lorenzo totally sent the opposition off track to gain the position and there was no penalty for the "culprit" or compensation for the "harmed".

So, that said what is the rule after all?
Touching the green while existing last turn to overtake at next turn is to me the obvious example of what i thought was the rule.

Anyway, happy for Mir and i do my mea-culpa because early on the season my guess was that he would not even get closer to what he is doing. At this moment i'm more inclined to love Mir's performances than Fabio.

From the other season surprise, at KTM Oliveira needs desperately to improve qualifying and Binder has to stop crashing. With riders in front he's just almost always out of control pushing way too hard.

michaelm · Sep 21, 2020

seusouber said:
I'm finding it quite hard to understand track limits penalties.

My read is that if you don't gain any advantage on touching the green you get a warning after 3 occurances, and a long lap penalty when you go off track 2 more times.

However, when apparently you get an advantage you have to drop a position.

It happened to Mir on Austria on the start, and actually at Misano 2 he went on the green just before overtaking Pol Espargaro.

Also at Austria, i tend to agree with Mir and Suzuki that Pol should not be 3rd after going off track. Yes, riders may be pushed out track (was not the case) but if it was gravel there was no way he could come back to be 3rd, 4th or even 5th.
Also, it always happened that way on nobody seemed to care that much.
Jerez is famous, Rossi on gibernau or Marquez on Lorenzo totally sent the opposition off track to gain the position and there was no penalty for the "culprit" or compensation for the "harmed".

So, that said what is the rule after all?
Touching the green while existing last turn to overtake at next turn is to me the obvious example of what i thought was the rule.

Anyway, happy for Mir and i do my mea-culpa because early on the season my guess was that he would not even get closer to what he is doing. At this moment i'm more inclined to love Mir's performances than Fabio.

From the other season surprise, at KTM Oliveira needs desperately to improve qualifying and Binder has to stop crashing. With riders in front he's just almost always out of control pushing way too hard.

They got themselves tied up by going with the narrative. No way was the thing on Gibernau legal then or now. I strongly suspect MM was well aware he was re-enacting it with Lorenzo (the points gained actually won him the title, although he didn’t deserve to lose due to the PI 2013 debacle as he would have otherwise either of course), and he very definitely pretty much deliberately re-enacted Laguna Seca 2007 and Motegi 2010 as well.

Keshav · Sep 21, 2020

p4p1 said:
I don’t disagree about his insight, it’s excellent and he was a top rider.

Another point, after Fabio’s tear off ended Jacks race and Pecco believes he hit a tear off that caused him to crash, do tear offs now need to be replaced?

I have wondered about those for years. Just assumed if nobody was talking about it - it wasn't an issue.

Furiosa · Sep 21, 2020

seusouber said:
I'm finding it quite hard to understand track limits penalties.

My read is that if you don't gain any advantage on touching the green you get a warning after 3 occurances, and a long lap penalty when you go off track 2 more times.

However, when apparently you get an advantage you have to drop a position.

I thought that was the point of the long lap. It was tricky to know if they'd dropped a position they gained, or if they dropped 1 position, how it didn't let more through, etc. I am sure I saw discussion where the "dropping 1 position" seemed sketchy so they went with "send them on a long lap" instead.

Which might have seemed reasonable, until you have
- Quaterraro just not taking the long lap. Shouldn't the penalty for not doing the punishment be much worse than the initial punishment? If you think you're gonna lose more than 3 seconds, then just don't do it...? That doesn't seem right;
- giving weight to that is that some poor sod in Moto 2 (or 3? so sorry, I'm rubbish eh

) fell off when doing the long lap cos it was so dusty;
- Zarco a few races ago doing the long lap penalty almost as fast as the actual circuit and thereby not losing any position.

Bern1 · Sep 21, 2020

p4p1 said:
I think this weekend Fabios behaviour after the demotion and complaining about the 1x Mir left the track etc has lost him some fans. Not that I’m judging him for it, I’ve done worse in when I’ve felt I’ve been wronged by sports officials. Mir on the other hand continues to gain more fans with his balls and/or precise overtaking.

I have noted now several instances of Fabio’s conduct being less than sportsmanlike. Due to youth or impetuousness, he will have to temper this lest it mar his results and/or reputation going forward.

I like him, but Mir is just as likeable with better passing skills for the moment, as noted above.

My measure of conduct is exemplified by Lawson. I never heard him disparaging opponents, making excuses or blaming his team.

Keshav · Sep 21, 2020

Bern1 said:
I have noted now several instances of Fabio’s conduct being less than sportsmanlike. Due to youth or impetuousness, he will have to temper this lest it mar his results and/or reputation going forward.

I like him, but Mir is just as likeable with better passing skills for the moment, as noted above.

My measure of conduct is exemplified by Lawson. I never heard him disparaging opponents, making excuses or blaming his team.

To be fair, those were different times with no social media guys poking
microphones in rider's faces every two seconds. Lawson, a great rider no
doubt, was a kind of dour, not terribly social loner kind of guy, who
if he had a gripe, would not air it, not because he was being politic, but
because he was kind of macho and wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction
of admitting they'd got under his skin.

warthog1 · Sep 21, 2020

Furiosa said:
- Quaterraro just not taking the long lap. Shouldn't the penalty for not doing the punishment be much worse than the initial punishment? If you think you're gonna lose more than 3 seconds, then just don't do it...? That doesn't seem right;

.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/944940/1/i-didnt-get-warning-quartararo-loses-podium

Bern1 · Sep 21, 2020

Keshav said:
To be fair, those were different times with no social media guys poking
microphones if rider's faces every two seconds. Lawson, a great rider no
doubt, was a kind of dour, not terribly social loner kind of guy, who
if he had a gripe, would not air it, not because he was being politic, but
because he was kind of macho and wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction
of admitting they'd got under his skin.

This may be the case and it's another reason for me to admire Lawson.

Loners or not, these guys are supposed to be warriors after all. If they can't handle social media types.....

I really don't want to hear any whining about not getting a dashboard warning for exceeding track limits, or anything else for that matter.

p4p1 · Sep 21, 2020

Bern1 said:
This may be the case and it's another reason for me to admire Lawson.

Loners or not, these guys are supposed to be warriors after all. If they can't handle social media types.....

I really don't want to hear any whining about not getting a dashboard warning for exceeding track limits, or anything else for that matter.

I would add that I do believe if the warning came up on the dashboard then it must have been sent by RD. That he didn't get the message means one of two things happened. Either he didn't see it or there was a failure on his dashboard. If it is a failure of his dashboard then the responsibility is solely on his team. Like if the rear lights aren't in the rain working its an automatic black flag.

I am of the opinion that, this demotion wont cost him the title, if he doesn't win the title it is because he was too inconsistent.

p4p1 · Sep 21, 2020

I was a bit surprised to hear the whole 'Maverick proving doubters wrong' thing after he won. I don't think he has proven most wrong. The criticism is not that he can't win races or be quick, its always been that he is woefully inconsistent. Yes his starts are often terrible but when he wins they're normally not, so I don't think there was anything surprising about what happened. It would be surprising and IMO prove his doubters wrong if he started to string together 5 or 6 races of podiums/strong finishes.

Furiosa · Sep 22, 2020

warthog1 said:
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/944940/1/i-didnt-get-warning-quartararo-loses-podium

He did lose the podium and chances are you'll lose a spot or 2, but it's the 3 second penalty for not taking the long lap that I've issue with. I think it should have been more!!! 3 secs is maybe what you'd expect to lose on the long lap... or maybe he'd have lost more than 1 spot on the long lap

warthog1 · Sep 22, 2020

Bern1 said:
I really don't want to hear any whining about not getting a dashboard warning for exceeding track limits, or anything else for that matter.

Fair complaint imo. Here is the relevant part;

Since it can be hard for arider to tell if track limits have been exceeded, a warning is sent, via a dashboard message, after 3 infractions.

But the frustrated Petronas Yamaha star insisted he did not receive such a warning, after which he would have been 'extra careful'.

"Normally when you exceed track limits 3 times you have a warning. And when you have a track limits warning you take much more care. I didn't see any warning.

"This is something they must work on because when you watch a race you see that they send a message to the TV. But you [the rider] are not looking at the TV!

"So for me this is a mistake from them, but also I went 5 times onto the green, so it's my mistake too.

"But you must have a track limits warning because the last two track limits my front wheel was 1mm on the green, so you don't even know if you are on the green or not.

"I was just [thinking] if I did too many track limits, I'd receive a message and then I would have taken much more care in the last laps.

Mrpurple · Sep 22, 2020

p4p1 said:
I was a bit surprised to hear the whole 'Maverick proving doubters wrong' thing after he won. I don't think he has proven most wrong. The criticism is not that he can't win races or be quick, its always been that he is woefully inconsistent. Yes his starts are often terrible but when he wins they're normally not, so I don't think there was anything surprising about what happened. It would be surprising and IMO prove his doubters wrong if he started to string together 5 or 6 races of podiums/strong finishes.

Didn't the commentators say they had made a breakthrough with his fuel tank problem?

He just needs more experience with the hole shot device and hell be golden.

Mrpurple · Sep 22, 2020

Also, every time I see a tear off, I see it getting pulled into that Ducati rear scoop, or at least get in a chain.

p4p1 · Sep 22, 2020

Mrpurple said:
Didn't the commentators say they had made a breakthrough with his fuel tank problem?

He just needs more experience with the hole shot device and hell be golden.

Just like last time that he won?

Cutter · Sep 23, 2020

My Firestick Kodi build hasn't uploaded the last two races... I'm behind

p4p1 · Sep 28, 2020

p4p1 said:
I was a bit surprised to hear the whole 'Maverick proving doubters wrong' thing after he won. I don't think he has proven most wrong. The criticism is not that he can't win races or be quick, its always been that he is woefully inconsistent. Yes his starts are often terrible but when he wins they're normally not, so I don't think there was anything surprising about what happened. It would be surprising and IMO prove his doubters wrong if he started to string together 5 or 6 races of podiums/strong finishes.

Coz it’s relevant after this week.

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