2020 Gran Premi Monster Energy de Catalunya

michaelm · Oct 1, 2020

p4p1 said:
What I wonder is whether that is by design. Dorna is enjoying the closer racing, so why would they want to change it?
Bridgestone is a Japanese business and maybe they saw MotoGP as a way of not just advertising but improving and innovating their tyres. Michelin on the other hand might just care about the advertising. Riders still complain about the tyres and still talk about unexplainable differences etc. I've wondered if a huge part of Bridgestone leaving after 2015 was that Dorna were pushing for not so much a tyre lottery but an artificial way of keeping the races closer and Bridgestone wasn't interested in that. All the seasons Dovi was runner up were a direct result of his ability to slow races down and save tyres until the end of the race. Before 2016, I am not sure that strategy would have served him so well.

I agree. I consider it fairly likely that was the brief from uncle Carmelo which Michelin was happy to take up but Bridgestone was not.

I don't know what motivates the Japanese firms but some pretense at least of research and development seems to be necessary to sell motor sport participation to their corporate bosses; even Honda with a racing tradition going back to their founder seemed to need to justify their gp bike racing effort to some extent as research into fuel economy. I agree as well that Michelin are probably happy to just be the premier class tyre supplier, and probably don't care overly that a minute percentage of diehard and/or educated bike racing fans consider their race tyres to be substandard.

Segfault · Oct 1, 2020

I removed Michelin from my shopping list after they ruined an F1 race in the US. (First their crappy tire couldn't withstand the speed and then, after they were offered 2-3 ways to race safely they pulled out instead.)

imunderandoverit · Oct 1, 2020

misfit said:
Yeah, all the top riders have had their costly falls. Rossi has had two in a row. Tough break for him but I think it harsh to be hard on him for it. It's quite the challenge for the riders and this is why I am so much enjoying this season. I come to each race weekend not having a clue what will happen except for some great qualifying and racing.

I would love Mir to get his maiden victory soon. The guy is slick and shining with some consistency where so many are unable to do the same.

Rossi has showed that he can still race and Im pretty sure he would have won in Barcelona. He cut 0.250 sec the lap before he crashed. I think he did the same thing like in Assen 2016. He pushed too hard, having sandbaged. Tyre wasnt warmed up enough and he crashed.

Mir would have been leading if a1 ring part 1 never got red flagged. I think that we will have a Suzuki champ for the first time in the MotoGP era.

misfit · Oct 1, 2020

imunderandoverit said:
Rossi has showed that he can still race and Im pretty sure he would have won in Barcelona. He cut 0.250 sec the lap before he crashed. I think he did the same thing like in Assen 2016. He pushed too hard, having sandbaged. Tyre wasnt warmed up enough and he crashed.

Mir would have been leading if a1 ring part 1 never got red flagged. I think that we will have a Suzuki champ for the first time in the MotoGP era.

Well, Rossi fell, and this as well as the difficulty with making the tyres last the full race distance are both reasons why it's seriously wild speculation to think he would have won. I'd have been happy to see that but I do have to see it first to believe it.

I think it far more likely that his tyres would have given up the ghost and he'd have been swallowed by the Suzukis.

misfit · Oct 1, 2020

p4p1 said:
What I wonder is whether that is by design. Dorna is enjoying the closer racing, so why would they want to change it?
Bridgestone is a Japanese business and maybe they saw MotoGP as a way of not just advertising but improving and innovating their tyres. Michelin on the other hand might just care about the advertising. Riders still complain about the tyres and still talk about unexplainable differences etc. I've wondered if a huge part of Bridgestone leaving after 2015 was that Dorna were pushing for not so much a tyre lottery but an artificial way of keeping the races closer and Bridgestone wasn't interested in that. All the seasons Dovi was runner up were a direct result of his ability to slow races down and save tyres until the end of the race. Before 2016, I am not sure that strategy would have served him so well.

I don't wonder about it.

It's the very same thing with F1 Michelin tyres. The tyres operate through a narrow window for both setup, race conditions and the rider.

Little Walter · Oct 1, 2020

misfit said:
I don't wonder about it.

It's the very same thing with F1 Michelin tyres. The tyres operate through a narrow window for both setup, race conditions and the rider.

Yes. I like Science Fiction and all kinds of speculation, but I'm not much for conspiracies, as fun as they may be. Michelin has shown itself to be less than wonderful without benefit of SNSs. Look at how unprepared they were over the course of the first two seasons as sole supplier, as compared to Bridgestone.

michaelm · Oct 2, 2020

Little Walter said:
Yes. I like Science Fiction and all kinds of speculation, but I'm not much for conspiracies, as fun as they may be. Michelin has shown itself to be less than wonderful without benefit of SNSs. Look at how unprepared they were over the course of the first two seasons as sole supplier, as compared to Bridgestone.

In most human endeavours given a choice between a conspiracy and a stuff-up it is indeed usually a stuff-up. I strongly suspect Bridgestone are just better at making race tyres, and specifically in gp bike racing they mostly weren't in a position to provide SNS tyres as you say and just had to make tyres that worked in a variety of conditions. They never really mastered qualifying tyres which Michelin were good at making, not of much moment now they are no longer used of course.

Those of us who follow F1, or formerly did anyway, like misfit and I, do remember Bernie at one stage pretty much mandating tyres which wore out to 'improve the racing', and I also recall Uncle Carmelo, back then an ardent student of Bernie's methods, thinking this was a good idea. I have no way of knowing what the deal is currently, but iirc part of the control tyre thing was providing them free, and I can't imagine Michelin are flush with funds like most other enterprises in a Covid-19 world and hence may not be massively spending on gp bike racing tyre development.

misfit · Oct 2, 2020

michaelm said:
In most human endeavours given a choice between a conspiracy and a stuff-up it is indeed usually a stuff-up. I strongly suspect Bridgestone are just better at making race tyres, and specifically in gp bike racing they mostly weren't in a position to provide SNS tyres as you say and just had to make tyres that worked in a variety of conditions. They never really mastered qualifying tyres which Michelin were good at making, not of much moment now they are no longer used of course.

Those of us who follow F1, or formerly did anyway, like misfit and I, do remember Bernie at one stage pretty much mandating tyres which wore out to 'improve the racing', and I also recall Uncle Carmelo, back then an ardent student of Bernie's methods, thinking this was a good idea. I have no way of knowing what the deal is currently, but iirc part of the control tyre thing was providing them free, and I can't imagine Michelin are flush with funds like most other enterprises in a Covid-19 world and hence may not be massively spending on gp bike racing tyre development.

I follow F1 as avidly as MotoGP and I'd be darned if the F1 Michelin rubber hasn't made its way into MotoGP. Dovi's technically expressed frustrations with the rubber is like Deja Vu.

michaelm · Oct 2, 2020

misfit said:
I follow F1 as avidly as MotoGP and I'd be darned if the F1 Michelin rubber hasn't made its way into MotoGP. Dovi's technically expressed frustrations with the rubber is like Deja Vu.

Sure, I still do as well, mainly for Daniel Ricciardo though. Although I would no doubt be happy were I a Hamilton fan, I consider Mercedes to have had too much technical advantage in recent years. I am sure their dominance is not entirely unrelated to Lewis, but for me it stretches the bounds of credulity that whoever is the second Mercedes driver fairly immediately becomes the second best driver in the field.

misfit · Oct 3, 2020

michaelm said:
Sure, I still do as well, mainly for Daniel Ricciardo though. Although I would no doubt be happy were I a Hamilton fan, I consider Mercedes to have had too much technical advantage in recent years. I am sure their dominance is not entirely unrelated to Lewis, but for me it stretches the bounds of credulity that whoever is the second Mercedes driver fairly immediately becomes the second best driver in the field.

I'm an avid watcher out of momentum, I guess, as well as the overall story that F1 has been over the years. A snapshot isn't particularly convincing in the interest of competition on any single race weekend.

Since my interest in MotoGP grew, I come to MotoGP for the racing and the personalities in the riders which are for me anyway, and of course relatively speaking, quite open. Press conferences are still interesting while in F1, I can't recall the last press conference I've watched and really don't miss them. F1 news is enough.

Some may say that the tyres are the same for everyone as the way to defuse the problem of the tyres. It is true that the riders need to find a way to make the tyres work optimally with their machinery. However, it doesn't seem to be predictable and like a lottery, tyre performance seems to be playing in the hands of particular riding styles. Again, we could say the same of the bikes characteristics as well. But then, how can a rider who is on the backfoot adapt when whatever he is trying to adapt to changes from weekend to weekend the way things currently are. Yes, you'll have Marquez who is able to ride around problems way more than the average rider, but without him, we see what's happening from weekend to weekend.

The unpredictability is entertaining, but it could well be impacting the reputation of riders who are suffering more, MV being an example. FQ's slump has saved his rep somewhat but not enough IMO. Right now, MV is simply labelled as inconsistent, but is he really with most of the grid being inconsistent as well?

michaelm · Oct 3, 2020

misfit said:
I'm an avid watcher out of momentum, I guess, as well as the overall story that F1 has been over the years. A snapshot isn't particularly convincing in the interest of competition on any single race weekend.

Since my interest in MotoGP grew, I come to MotoGP for the racing and the personalities in the riders which are for me anyway, and of course relatively speaking, quite open. Press conferences are still interesting while in F1, I can't recall the last press conference I've watched and really don't miss them. F1 news is enough.

Some may say that the tyres are the same for everyone as the way to defuse the problem of the tyres. It is true that the riders need to find a way to make the tyres work optimally with their machinery. However, it doesn't seem to be predictable and like a lottery, tyre performance seems to be playing in the hands of particular riding styles. Again, we could say the same of the bikes characteristics as well. But then, how can a rider who is on the backfoot adapt when whatever he is trying to adapt to changes from weekend to weekend the way things currently are. Yes, you'll have Marquez who is able to ride around problems way more than the average rider, but without him, we see what's happening from weekend to weekend.

The unpredictability is entertaining, but it could well be impacting the reputation of riders who are suffering more, MV being an example. FQ's slump has saved his rep somewhat but not enough IMO. Right now, MV is simply labelled as inconsistent, but is he really with most of the grid being inconsistent as well?

Completely agree. A tyre lottery is not my idea of the premier bike racing series in the world.

Despite being a petrol head for many decades I have very little interest in NASCAR either. I have absolutely no doubt that considerable skill is involved, but the convenient yellow flags to contrive a close finish whatever has happened for every lap prior to the last few laps or last lap kill it for me.

povol · Oct 8, 2020

imunderandoverit said:
Rossi has showed that he can still race and Im pretty sure he would have won in Barcelona. He cut 0.250 sec the lap before he crashed. I think he did the same thing like in Assen 2016. He pushed too hard, having sandbaged. Tyre wasnt warmed up enough and he crashed.

Mir would have been leading if a1 ring part 1 never got red flagged. I think that we will have a Suzuki champ for the first time in the MotoGP era.

Simply not true. Rossi actually lost time the lap before he crashed and I serious doubt his tires were not up to temp after 15 laps. Rossi had another one of those ambition outweighing the talent moments as he tried to run the pace of a faster rider.

imunderandoverit · Oct 10, 2020

povol said:
Simply not true. Rossi actually lost time the lap before he crashed and I serious doubt his tires were not up to temp after 15 laps. Rossi had another one of those ambition outweighing the talent moments as he tried to run the pace of a faster rider.

He was closer to fabio the lap he crashed than the previous.

Keshav · Oct 10, 2020

imunderandoverit said:
He was closer to fabio the lap he crashed than the previous.

And that's why he crashed.

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