2011 latest rossi/lorenzo/stoner

povol said:

I wondered if anyone was going to call that out. Melandri quit on Ducati, he didnt put a full season of effort into developing the bike.

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Well I was going to, but I was too busy thinking about addressing his mistaken reasoning to support his question, starting with "what has Nicky actually done...".

Gecko Hunter said:

I have to say (and I'm sure I will get flamed by a Hayden fan), what has Nicky actually done that makes him hot property? Honestly?

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Its an honest question, but it seemed a bit rhetorical so I'n not so sure the education required about the nature of this sport will suffice, something often missed even by ardent followers. I was hoping somebody like Lex would take it up, but judging from his reply, he failed miserably.



We've now used this term "aliens" to describe the best riders in GP as if their ability is utterly out of this world. But ask yourself this question, can an alien exist on a subpar package? Why do you suppose there are no "aliens" on a Suzuki or the now defunct Kawasaki, or a satellite squad? Ducati minus Stoner for the last 3 years has been no better a machine that a Suzuki. Take the time to add up the constructor points, this should give you a clue as to why the "aliens" are allowed to exist.



Friend, you wondered what has Nicky done, instead you should ask what has Nicky RODE since 06; answer: 07 Honda designed for a midget, and a un-ridable screamer Ducati (who was torpedoed multiple times, even once by an "alien"). This should be ample to answer your question.

TP70 said:

V, read my post. Who gives a .... about what was done a 990cc with 24 litres when discussing 2012 bikes and who can ride them. I commend you on your statistics and why I say your superhero name is 'STATMAN' but sometimes stats have no meaning. In this case pre 21 litre stats have no relevance to 2012 bikes.



As far as Melandri goes you could say that in 2005 he was not riding against Stoner or Pedrosa. Of all those riders in 2005 only one of them, Rossi, has shown ANY ability on a fuel limited bike.

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But then how can anyone know Stoner can ride a 1000 MotoGP bike as well as a 2007 Ducati 800? It was implied that only Spies and Stoner could certainly ride 1000cc, perhaps Spies a 1000cc WSB which is not the same, but what data do we have on Stoner? Other than a not so good 2006 Season. We know some riders rode well, Rossi, Hayden, and even Melandri and Capirossi, but that’s about it.

Jumkie said:

We've now used this term "aliens" to describe the best riders in GP as if their ability is utterly out of this world. But ask yourself this question, can an alien exist on a subpar package? Why do you suppose there are no "aliens" on a Suzuki or the now defunct Kawasaki, or a satellite squad? Ducati minus Stoner for the last 3 years has been no better a machine that a Suzuki. Take the time to add up the constructor points, this should give you a clue as to why the "aliens" are allowed to exist.

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But compa, that is like saying Yamaha minus Rossi for 2007 was a crappy bike!

VHMP01 said:

But compa, that is like saying Yamaha minus Rossi for 2007 was a crappy bike!

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Fair enough brotha, though I said over three years and you isolated it to one, since it is a bit difficult to factor in the effect Bstone might have had, but certainly not for 08/09, basically the same bikes with a change in rubber for Rossi, right? When you consider for 08; Yam 1:4 to Duc 4:12 and 09 even worse, Yam 1:2 Duc 4:13 for the factory squads. Funny thing too, as I was looking at it, minus Stoner/Rossi would make Suzuki look actually pretty good as Hopkins was fourth over all in 07. hahaha

Jumkie said:

Fair enough brotha, though I said over three years and you isolated it to one, since it is a bit difficult to factor in the effect Bstone might have had, but certainly not for 08/09, basically the same bikes with a change in rubber for Rossi, right? Funny thing as I was looking at it, minus Stoner/Rossi would make Suzuki look actually pretty good as Hopkins was fourth over all that year. hahaha

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Yeah, that's why I used the word 'Like'... saying for a single year. So after all, I guess if a Rider can get a bike/tyres combination to winning ways, the pack has potential to do it, which ever Rider does achieve it.

Otis Driftwood said:

Don`t want to piss on your fire mate,but 2012 is a fair way off.All sorts of things to be considered by the powers that be to put the ooomph back into MotoGP.........fuel could be one of them.

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If they change the fuel rule I will retract my statement. But lets face it the fuel rule is there to keep other manufacturers out and Dorna don't have the balls to stand up to the MSMA.

VHMP01 said:

But then how can anyone know Stoner can ride a 1000 MotoGP bike as well as a 2007 Ducati 800? It was implied that only Spies and Stoner could certainly ride 1000cc, perhaps Spies a 1000cc WSB which is not the same, but what data do we have on Stoner? Other than a not so good 2006 Season. We know some riders rode well, Rossi, Hayden, and even Melandri and Capirossi, but that’s about it.

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What we know is that Stoner can ride a racing motorbike really ....... fast and wondering if he can only ride a 2007 800cc Ducati fast is just ignoring what we see week in week out which is an indication of the colour of glass that are being worn.



What if it went to 1010cc - could Rossi ride one as he never has ridden a 1010cc bike. Of course he could because like Stoner he rides motobikes really ....... fast.

VHMP01 said:

Melandri? Capirossi? Maybe De Puniet, Kallio or Elias?



What about new Talent that could adapt better to 1000 than 800? Lorenzo? Dovisiozo? Simoncelli? Barbera? Espargaro? Aoyama?



Not really sure about your Statement Evo.







Capirossi was 3rd in 2006 and had a Championship contention at the Start of the Season, also 4th back in 2003 just out of the box Ducati!

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Yeah thats true but wasn't Bayliss 5th? In his first year of Top level GP? Capirossi is a great rider but still he has never really gelled with the Duc.

Bayliss in his last ride on it smashed the field.

Gecko Hunter said:

Yeah thats true but wasn't Bayliss 5th? In his first year of Top level GP? Capirossi is a great rider but still he has never really gelled with the Duc.

Bayliss in his last ride on it smashed the field.

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6th on 128 pts

Jumkie said:

Well I was going to, but I was too busy thinking about addressing his mistaken reasoning to support his question, starting with "what has Nicky actually done...".









Its an honest question, but it seemed a bit rhetorical so I'n not so sure the education required about the nature of this sport will suffice, something often missed even by ardent followers. I was hoping somebody like Lex would take it up, but judging from his reply, he failed miserably.

We've now used this term "aliens" to describe the best riders in GP as if their ability is utterly out of this world. But ask yourself this question, can an alien exist on a subpar package? Why do you suppose there are no "aliens" on a Suzuki or the now defunct Kawasaki, or a satellite squad? Ducati minus Stoner for the last 3 years has been no better a machine that a Suzuki. Take the time to add up the constructor points, this should give you a clue as to why the "aliens" are allowed to exist.



Friend, you wondered what has Nicky done, instead you should ask what has Nicky RODE since 06; answer: 07 Honda designed for a midget, and a un-ridable screamer Ducati (who was torpedoed multiple times, even once by an "alien"). This should be ample to answer your question.

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Don't get me wrong here, but Nicky was on a good package when he won the championship. But (and I cant remember the exact figure but how many races did he win that year?) now I don't need a lecture on consistency here as I am aware that a good rider needs to have the ability to be consistent and not just either win or bin. The point here is Nicky has been more consistent than a race winner.



Yes he may have been torpedoed a few times also but in my opinion it wouldn't have changed his win rate much.



Also I may be mistaken but I do believe that both Marco and Ducati agreed that they where working together in an amicable relationship. But do you think that Marco really wasn't giving it his best?

Complain he might be he did significant testing to try and improve his times and results. And wouldn't you be infuriated if you where having your ... handed to you every race by your team mate?



As I have said I am a Hayden fan I just don't he has what it takes to get to the top. And if I'm wrong you can be assured I will be the first one to say I was wrong.



Cheers



Gecko Hunter

Gecko Hunter said:

Yeah thats true but wasn't Bayliss 5th? In his first year of Top level GP? Capirossi is a great rider but still he has never really gelled with the Duc.

Bayliss in his last ride on it smashed the field.

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In Top Class, Capirossi has 7 wins (and 23 Podiums) on a Ducati alone. Almost the same Wins as Pedrosa on a Honda, who is considered an Alien, this is tied if we consider all Wins (8 each) and all Podiums (39 each). In my opinion, Capirossi gelled well with Ducati, I think the ambition of a younger Rider (Melandri) was the mistake from Ducati here, because even in 2007 with Stoner far above, Capirossi had a win, 4 Podiums and a couple of 5th. And obviously he help develop Stoner's 2007 missile. He could have been a great #2 Rider, keep up development and take important points. Anyway, things shifted and now we have what we have.

TP70 said:

What we know is that Stoner can ride a racing motorbike really ....... fast and wondering if he can only ride a 2007 800cc Ducati fast is just ignoring what we see week in week out which is an indication of the colour of glass that are being worn.



What if it went to 1010cc - could Rossi ride one as he never has ridden a 1010cc bike. Of course he could because like Stoner he rides motobikes really ....... fast.

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Well not exactly buddy. I will remind you, at the expense of my pain, that my boy Nicky didn't fair to well when they went to 800s yet he rode the 990 "really ....... fast". There is no guarantee, though I think the only rider that has proved he can adapt to various displacements and engine configurations is Valentino. I still contend its about building a mouse trap. Honda gave Nicky a bike for a mouse in 07.

Gecko Hunter said:

Don't get me wrong here, but Nicky was on a good package when he won the championship. But (and I cant remember the exact figure but how many races did he win that year?) now I don't need a lecture on consistency here as I am aware that a good rider needs to have the ability to be consistent and not just either win or bin. The point here is Nicky has been more consistent than a race winner.

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Fair enough, but let me remind you that Nicky, while in Rossi's shadow a couple of years (clearly a #2 rider) came 5th, then 3rd, then 1st in the championship. When you come 3 years in the top 5 while being the #2 guy, this is a feat. Then drop like a lead ballon the next two year I think says more about what you are riding than who is riding it. Nicky has had the bad luck of being in the shadow of other riders in regard to status, in prototype racing, this makes a big difference.

Yes he may have been torpedoed a few times also but in my opinion it wouldn't have changed his win rate much.

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I guess that is correct, but it sure would have shown a bit more of his potential on a bike that for most of the good riders who tried it just couldn't ride it (except Stoner).

Also I may be mistaken but I do believe that both Marco and Ducati agreed that they where working together in an amicable relationship. But do you think that Marco really wasn't giving it his best?

Complain he might be he did significant testing to try and improve his times and results. And wouldn't you be infuriated if you where having your ... handed to you every race by your team mate?

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Then you must have missed when he effectively gave up. And this wasn't the first time either, as he publicly gave up on Gresini Honda too, as he put it, 'I will not fight for positions in a race and risk injury on such a .... bike'. (paraphrasing)

As I have said I am a Hayden fan I just don't he has what it takes to get to the top. And if I'm wrong you can be assured I will be the first one to say I was wrong.

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Great, we Hayden fans got to stick together. But I'm worried you don't know the same Nicky most of us know. I think he does have "what it takes to get to the top" as a rider & person, the question is, "does he have under him (as in a bike) what it takes to get to the top?" Well for the last two years, it didn't look like it. Perhaps now we can see the real Nicky Hayden. I still don't expect him to win a title, as I would if say he were on a factory Yamaha but I do expect him to show us his brilliant riding ability.

Nicky has 3 motogp wins from 119 starts with 26 podiums, most of which came from the rc211v.



Not an alien but bloody hard working and consistent and fast enough to blow us all into the weeds anyday!!

Talpa said:

Nicky has 3 motogp wins from 119 starts with 26 podiums, most of which came from the rc211v.



Not an alien but bloody hard working and consistent and fast enough to blow us all into the weeds anyday!!

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2 at laguna seca in 05 and 06 and one in Assen in 06 and that was bloody good race between Nicky and Colin.

VHMP01 said:

In Top Class, Capirossi has 7 wins (and 23 Podiums) on a Ducati alone. Almost the same Wins as Pedrosa on a Honda, who is considered an Alien, this is tied if we consider all Wins (8 each) and all Podiums (39 each). In my opinion, Capirossi gelled well with Ducati, I think the ambition of a younger Rider (Melandri) was the mistake from Ducati here, because even in 2007 with Stoner far above, Capirossi had a win, 4 Podiums and a couple of 5th. And obviously he help develop Stoner's 2007 missile. He could have been a great #2 Rider, keep up development and take important points. Anyway, things shifted and now we have what we have.

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Capirossi has 201 races in the top class 500cc/MotoGP for his 8 wins and 41 podiums



Pedrosa has 72 races in the top class MotoGP for his 8 wins and 39 podiums



If you counted Capirossi's 8 wins than you have to include all his top class stats. You can not make the same arguement that if Pedrosa is one of the aliens then Capirossi is not far of by the numbers. It took less than half the time to have the same results that Capirossi has had.



I will agree with you that he he did gel with the 990cc Ducati and had he not been injured in 2006.....he would have be a factor for the title towards the end of the season.

Gecko Hunter said:

Don't get me wrong here, but Nicky was on a good package when he won the championship. But (and I cant remember the exact figure but how many races did he win that year?) now I don't need a lecture on consistency here as I am aware that a good rider needs to have the ability to be consistent and not just either win or bin. The point here is Nicky has been more consistent than a race winner.



Yes he may have been torpedoed a few times also but in my opinion it wouldn't have changed his win rate much.



Also I may be mistaken but I do believe that both Marco and Ducati agreed that they where working together in an amicable relationship. But do you think that Marco really wasn't giving it his best?

Complain he might be he did significant testing to try and improve his times and results. And wouldn't you be infuriated if you where having your ... handed to you every race by your team mate?



As I have said I am a Hayden fan I just don't he has what it takes to get to the top. And if I'm wrong you can be assured I will be the first one to say I was wrong.



Cheers



Gecko Hunter

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what are you talking about here? top of Mt Everest? because you can't be talking about the series he is in because last i checked, he was ALREADY at the top level of motorbikes. its not a Moto2 rider we are talking about. top step of the podium? already done it three times. top of the riders standings? World Champ in 2006.

Mastodon said:

what are you talking about here? top of Mt Everest? because you can't be talking about the series he is in because last i checked, he was ALREADY at the top level of motorbikes. its not a Moto2 rider we are talking about. top step of the podium? already done it three times. top of the riders standings? World Champ in 2006.

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I understand what your saying, I can be pedantic with what I say if you like. But seeing as pretty much everyone else has understood my point or observation if you will I'm not going to explain it for you.



But with this rationale why does Stoner get slammed so bad? Hayden has been in MotoGP longer than Casey and he cops a flogging as soon as he does perform but as other s have said before me "he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't!"

Jumkie said:

Well not exactly buddy. I will remind you, at the expense of my pain, that my boy Nicky didn't fair to well when they went to 800s yet he rode the 990 "really ....... fast".

There is no guarantee, though I think the only rider that has proved he can adapt to various displacements and engine configurations is Valentino. I still contend its about building a mouse trap. Honda gave Nicky a bike for a mouse in 07.

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I hear what you are saying but I think that all the riders on the grid would finish where they finish now no matter what class of bike you put them on. Now let me clarify that. If you take away all the bikes and then give each rider/team an equivalent bike in another class, say a 600cc then they would do about the same. Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa would be at the front. Nicky, Dovi, Randy, Colin etc would be close behind and so on and so on. Why? Because at the end of the day the rider makes up a huge percentage of the result and then another big chunk is the team and how they work with that rider and then last is the bike. Bayliss wildcard at the last 990cc MotoGP race is a good point. We all know Bayliss is an awesome rider but why did he do so well in that particular race and not when he was full time in MotoGP? Because that wildcard race he had his WSBK team that he was used to working with. Same goes with Spies who brought his team from WSBK to MotoGP.



Now the only reason the above wouldn't apply is when there is something or someone actively working against a rider/team as was the case with Hayden in the first 2 years of 800cc with Honda having priorities that did not include Nicky and Puig doing what Puig does.

Gecko Hunter said:

I understand what your saying, I can be pedantic with what I say if you like. But seeing as pretty much everyone else has understood my point or observation if you will I'm not going to explain it for you.



But with this rationale why does Stoner get slammed so bad? Hayden has been in MotoGP longer than Casey and he cops a flogging as soon as he does perform but as other s have said before me "he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't!"

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seeing as how all the people slamming Stoner can clearly see what makes his situation different i'm not going to explain it to you

Gecko Hunter said:

But with this rationale why does Stoner get slammed so bad? Hayden has been in MotoGP longer than Casey and he cops a flogging as soon as he does perform but as other s have said before me "he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't!"

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Capirossi has been in GP racing and MotoGP the longest and has not do jack .... in a long time (we are talking titles here folks)...and people don't expect him to do much either. He is now deamed "a Suzuki developer" by the masses. People wonder if he will retire, or decide to come back for another year......are you kidding me!!!! Vermeulen had scored more points than Capirossi while in the 800 class, wrecked less Suzuki bikes than Loris, and gave them there only MotoGP win!! Vermuelen gave them 1 win, 2 seconds and 3 thirds....Loris had NO PODIUMS. They kept Loris because of" his experience" to help guide a younger rider....what a load of crap. If you want to train new riders coming in, you don't put all your hopes and dreams into your worst performing guy who at any time might say "I am done with racing so I will retire" My point is nobody is slamming Loris for being a grid filler and not pissed that Suzuki wont can him for a better rider. Vermuelen said he would ride for free and Suzuki still thought Capirossi was the best choice out there.....Spies is lucky he got with Yamaha!!!





Stoner gets slammed because in his 2nd year in the top class of all that is 2 wheels.....he won a title, 10 races, at the time tied Rossi for most points in a season with 367 points. He became an instant hit. He did not back it up the next year, or the next year, and now this year he is even worse.....so the kicks in the balls will continue. People get pissed when they jump on the coat tails of a winner like this, brag to all their friends about how "Stoner is gonna win em all next year!!" and then have to hear about how "their boy" sucked and only got 6 wins this time and finsihed second place. (see 1st paragraph and try to figure out why people are mad at Stoner and Rossi eventhough they are still putting up wins and podiums????)



Rossi gets the same.....came in set the world on fire and kept on running with it. Now if you look at the race prediction threads, with Lorenzo doing so well, Rossi is many times picked to get 2nd or 3rd because he is "old, washed up, or can't run with Jorge". Many riders on the grid will never get a handful of podiums and possibly never get even one, but for Rossi, getting a podium 95% of the time is worse than The Plague. They both have had extreme success and a high level and most people expect that to be the norm for people like that. Rossi was able to run with that for a long time, Stoner has gotten worse every season.....people don't care if they are still un the top bunch, they expect the top or nothing for those guys.



Hayden did not come into MotoGP with guns blazing......he was average and worked his way up to the front over a few years and when he won, it was not like title years in the past with double digit wins and crazy high points, and the title is already decided with 3 rounds to still be races. He won 2 races and scored good points every round he finished. He was the kid who beat the odds, went all 15 rounds and won at the end. Most people think he "got lucky" and they never expect him or anyone else with Hayden's numbers to do it again.



People want the big time season with tons of wins and points and when that happens, they just ride that bandwagon until a new model wagon comes out, while quickly tossing last year's wagon in the trash. It is like when kids fall in love over the summer and when the break up happens, they have so much anger and hate towards that very person they would die for the day before.

Jumkie said:

Well not exactly buddy. I will remind you, at the expense of my pain, that my boy Nicky didn't fair to well when they went to 800s yet he rode the 990 "really ....... fast".

There is no guarantee, though I think the only rider that has proved he can adapt to various displacements and engine configurations is Valentino. I still contend its about building a mouse trap. Honda gave Nicky a bike for a mouse in 07.

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He did look to big for the bike but when we looked at this back then the dimensions of the 990 and the 800 were posted and they were the same as i remember. Later Hrc mate a larger fairing for nicky. I thought Nicky was claiming his 07 results were due to him having to test the new parts like the pneumatic head while pedro stuck with the spring valve head until the last minute. You see, getting the new parts first isn't all it's cracked up to be