Why the hate on Casey?

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Sorry Mick your math is bad ......



If I'm wrong tell me the real figures:





Up to an including Laguna 08

Rossi = 13 wins



Stoner = 13 wins





After Laguna 08

Rossi = 13 wins



Stoner = 20 wins



Looks a lot like Stoner has won more than Rossi since Laguna 08 ........... coincidentally Rossi's Laguna 08 win was the point at which Rossi and Stoner had 13 wins a piece ........



but since then ......... Stoner has won more ........



There was a lot more to Laguna 08 than you guys are willing to accept.



Here's one: Had Rossi not won Laguna 08 do you feel his thinking, in going to Ducati, would have been different?

To me the guy was absolutely blind in rejecting Yamaha's offer and going Duc. HowTF could he not possibly see that the Duc. was a very flawed machine. ...... he started to believe his own ..... myth.

What Laguna 08 did to Rossi caused that "blindness" and has been his undoing ........ had Rossi not have had the need to so badly try and match Stoner, and Stoner specifically, he would have seen through the hype his fans were creating out of myth ....... and even probably learned to "suck it up" at times and stayed Yam ....... had Rossi stayed Yam ....... todays story may be very different than it looks today.



Laguna 08 destroyed Rossi ....... maybe not in the way you feel is right, but Mr Squig. posted a list of stuff abut Rossi ........ sadly much of that list was reaffirmed at Laguna 08 ........ and made Rossi then very vulnerable, to his own mind.



Look at the Rossi who T boned and crashed off Casey at Jerez ........... very different to the Rossi who T boned Stoner at Laguna ......... its called ......... conscience.

Let's see barry.



Subsequent to the corkscrew incident in 2008 rossi won six races (including the laguna seca race itself obviously) and the world championship; stoner dnfed the next 2 races, but won 2 more races subsequently in 2008 (with scaphoid problems bla bla bla).



In 2009 rossi won 6 races and the world championship and stoner won 4 (with lactose intolerance/cfs bla bla bla) .



In 2010 rossi won 2 races (with broken leg bla bla) and stoner won 3.



In 2011 stoner on a honda won 10 races (probably should have been 12) and rossi on a ducati 0.



This makes a case for the ducati being a pig which held stoner back, and rossi much more so when he got on it as jumkie said but not for the laguna seca 2008 thing negatively affecting rossi and positively affecting stoner.



You know my views on the laguna seca incident and the ducati in general, and perhaps not oddly thay don't put stoner in a bad light and I don't believe laguna seca 08 was any sort of long term mind game defeat, but the sort of specious arguments you run along such lines as in your preceding posts in this thread are what annoy people and damage your credibility in general.



There are ridiculous arguments about stoner and rossi's relative performance on the ducati which are easy to attack, such as the widely promulgated one that any problems rossi had with the ducati are entirely due to the bike, and that as soon as it is fixed he will then pressure stoner into the type of "errors" he made when he was on the ducati, which were as opposed to valentino entirely due to him and not the bike.
 
Barry, you reminded me why i dont normally debate u. Your replies are weird and confusing. U keep saying people hate Stoner because he wins, but failed to address my rebuttle to ur assertion that Laguna 08 negatively affected Rossi while propelling Stoner. I disagreed and explained my reasoning. Ur response was again disconnected. I dont think normal people hate Stoner for winning, but rather for the reasons Hawk posted. I dont want to get drawn in further to ur never ending story line Rossi vs Stoner.



To the rest of u,



Stoner has had an excellent run these last 6 years, and up until the buzz saw, so did Rossi. I'm gonna call it a push (record only during their time in same class together). While they have been in the series together, they have been fairly equal and the men to beat. As far as who is more popular, who is liked and dislike, i suppose either opinion is equally valid. Some people like the funny cool guy or hate the annoying arrogant clown (depending on ur perspective) some like the straight talk or hate the arrogant whiner (again, depending on ur persfective.) i personally have had moments where i have felt all those things for both these riders. Sometimes i really appreciate their comments and am mesmerized by their talents and abilities, sometimes im annoyed or disappointed in their comments. I think the two have also participated in fuelling their rivalry, but its the fans of both riders who have been at war. The worst of these have become far more vicious than the feud between the riders. Its been interesting to see the fringe of these fan, yes, only the fringe, the extremes, go completely ape .... crazy. Its this type of fan that makes the normal fans want to harden their stance on one or the other rider! The majority of either fans have remained sane and passionately measured but the crazies make it difficult for both camps to coexist. Its probably because i/we hang on every word and action of these riders far more than i/wenshould. Both riiders are human and so am i, that is, flawed.



Good night peeps. TTYT
 
I think both Digger and Hawk make good points.



Jorge defintely has a better rapport with his fan base and for sure seems very amicable and approachable...but he is also far more media savvy and probably covets and pursues the type of adulation Rossi has received over his entire career - Stoner doesnt seem to be so interested in this type of celebrity fanfare. Thats fine by me.



Stoner is definitely not the most charming, likeable rider on the grid - but I also believe his indiscretions are amplified more than most. On the surface he doesnt seem to care too much about the how he is perceived by the sports fans...I believe all he wants is to be respected for his abilities which until recently have always been diminished by a certain section of the fanbase. Rossi has also been guilty of this at times as well...which is why he is on the receiving end of some quite pointed remarks by Stoner lately - he is just returning serve. Last season, however, vindicated him more than anything he could ever say so he should just leave it at that IMO.



I also respect the fact he is willing to give his honest yet unpalatable opinions on various subjects which often alienates many people and makes him unpopular - it takes bravery do do that knowing you will cop a heap of flak in todays media sensationalised world. Again - good on him as personally I admire people that call it as they see it rather than regurgitating rehearsed PR spin. So much for metal weakness....but as michaelm so accurately pointed out (as usual) I have no credibility and zero qualifications when it comes to psychoanalysis via the internet - so take that with a grain of salt
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Casey Stoner is mostly hated for one reason though.....beating Valentino Rossi more often than not since he arrived on the scene. That will buy you a lot of hate as anyone who has beaten him can testify.
 
I do think HRC are working his PR image now, they have a blog up for him. He just needs to work on being less abrasive. You see all the post test interviews, he goes from stating the rules changed to help someone, and that the new tires are causeing his chatter, in another interview he says Ducati and Yam had the same chattering problems from what he heard in the paddock after the testing. In another interview he blames the added weight and not the tires. He also said the new tires do warm up faster and something had to be done because the old tires were dangerous as we saw last season. He also said they just need to mold the bike around the tires to fix the problem in one interview.



In one interview he sounds like all the other riders, "we have things to figure out still and we'll keep working", but in another interview he sounds like a complainer and that the rules were changed to benefit a mystery some one. People are more likely to hear what they want to believe. Is Dorna out to get him and ....... him over with the tires and added weight or is everyone dealing with the same problem as he stated earlier. Is he telling it like it is, he never named the mystery person who benefited from the rule change, or is he frustrated Honda didn't fix the problem and resorting to saying the rules were bent to help someone. The guy just has a negativity about him. What did his team mate have to say, "we just have to adapt"

Or perhaps people are looking to find the negative about him. If you have over half a second on the field despite one day less testing some might think you can say whatever you like. Doohan was similar, obviously with far more personal gravitas. He is a perfectionist like doohan and may have been pissed off about his previous now wasted testing on a bike which wasn't the right weight.
 
He is a perfectionist like doohan and may have been pissed off about his previous now wasted testing on a bike which wasn't the right weight.

I think this is why people don't get him. He's more known to able to ride around problems; not fix them (hey, true or not its what most says anyway). Then he does these things to make his bike perfect. And people seem to get dumbfucked with that. Either, their just throwing accusations on Stoner and literally has their ears close whenever Stoner opens his mouth or just going the more conventional way and twisting every freakin' thing that comes out of his mouth. Sad that Casey has Vale for a rival. He can'T really win anything other than on track. Damn. Though I don't mind it. Stoner's still awesome.
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I think this is why people don't get him. He's more known to able to ride around problems; not fix them (hey, true or not its what most says anyway). Then he does these things to make his bike perfect. And people seem to get dumbfucked with that. Either, their just throwing accusations on Stoner and literally has their ears close whenever Stoner opens his mouth or just going the more conventional way and twisting every freakin' thing that comes out of his mouth. Sad that Casey has Vale for a rival. He can'T really win anything other than on track. Damn. Though I don't mind it. Stoner's still awesome.
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I had this discussion with my tiler the other day, a truly skilled artisan who once did a job perfectly for a very wealthy man 3 times (or twice anyway), only to tear it up twice because the guy decided he didn't like the pattern. People who are really good do things for intrinsic reasons/their own sake, and resent wasting their effort. Sure honda can easily redesign the bike with a different weight , but casey isn't getting the hours back he spent developing the bike at its previous weight. It is not as though ezy has no record for capricious rule changes, or rule changes which disadvantage stoner, either.
 
I dont think any of the rule changes bother him tbh, the fastest guy(s) are always going to win, he knows his ability and doesn't really have much to worry about - christ he put .5 of a sec into everyone with a days less testing, that extra few kg is hardly worthy of a re-design, just some tweaks. I do however think he's trying to play the game, his interviews always seem a little skewed. I like his frank approach to things but like hawk says, he has a negativity about him which does grate at times. Perhaps he's driven by an anger inside him because he fought tooth and nail to get where he is?
 
He's an awesome talent, and incredible to watch. He has just had an amazing season, an is a very deserving champion. But he could have had the success level o Toni Scud and I still would o disliked the guy. Sorry to all my Aussie cousins, brothers and clansmen
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I cant stop thinking where he would stand in wins and titles if he had been on a factory Honda instead of Ducati all those years. I dont see how anyone can say Stoner and Rossi has been a push, thats crazy talk.
 
Before Laguna 08 in Rossi v;s Stoner



Rossi = 12 wins

Stoner = 13 wins



After Laguna 08



Rossi = 14 wins

Stoner = 20 wins



Sorry Mick your math is bad ......



If I'm wrong tell me the real figures:





Up to an including Laguna 08

Rossi = 13 wins

Stoner = 13 wins



After Laguna 08

Rossi = 13 wins

Stoner = 20 wins

You have quoted two different sets of figures in these two posts and AFAICT neither are correct.



2006

Rossi 5 wins ; Stoner 0 wins

2007

Rossi 4 wins ; Stoner 10 wins

2008 before LS

Rossi 3 wins ; Stoner 4 wins



Total Rossi 12 ; Stoner 14



2008 after (& including) LS

Rossi 6 wins ; Stoner 2 wins

2009

Rossi 6 wins ; Stoner 4 wins

2010

Rossi 2 wins ; Stoner 3 wins



Total after LS over 3 years (surely enough to show if Rossi felt affected by LS)

Rossi 14 wins ; Stoner 9 wins



2011

Rossi 0 wins, Stoner 10 wins (defo more to do with Rossi's inability to get on with the Duke & Stoner loving the Honda than LS 2008)

Total after LS Rossi 14 ; Stoner 19

Total 2006 - 2011

Rossi 26 ; Stoner 33
 
I cant stop thinking where he would stand in wins and titles if he had been on a factory Honda instead of Ducati all those years. I dont see how anyone can say Stoner and Rossi has been a push, thats crazy talk.





Well sure we can speculate all we want. Its a fair thought to consider what if possibilities. What if Casey had not got on a Ducati 07 (very possible given he was 3rd choice) and stayed on satellite Honda? Stop and think about that possibility for a moment and let it sink in. He would have remained Crashy Stoner (given that even he suggested he was being sabotaged, les you forget the indictment). Which could have seen him an early exit from the class. Then we would never be talking about his success story. Not to realize just how fragile fortunes and misfortunes can be made in a sport with a decidedly uneven and shifting playing field is not only "crazy" but naive. Given your propensity to believe any Joe telling u tall tales on the street and believing what the puppet masters tell you on Fox TV, then yeah, I could see how you’d not understand.
 
He would have had more wins on better equipment for sure, but Honda might not have given him the chance like Ducati did. The Honda has also had it's problems, I remember when the bike went crazy and tried to kill DP, little fella went for one hell of a ride. I don't like the whole what if stuff though, all these guys get their opportunities by earning it. Casey wasn't the initial # 1 at Duc but he earned that psition and the position he's in now.
I cant stop thinking where he would stand in wins and titles if he had been on a factory Honda instead of Ducati all those years. I dont see how anyone can say Stoner and Rossi has been a push, thats crazy talk.
 
I cant stop thinking where he would stand in wins and titles if he had been on a factory Honda instead of Ducati all those years. I dont see how anyone can say Stoner and Rossi has been a push, thats crazy talk.



No offence Pov, but if's, but's, would have's and could have's do not count for squat.



No amount of 'posturing' or 'guessing' will change the fact that history is history and that Stoner did not spend those 4 years on a factory Honda but spent them on a Factory Ducati instead.



As such, all guesswork is irrelevant, altho0ugh it does make for interesting speculation.
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Gaz
 
No offence Pov, but if's, but's, would have's and could have's do not count for squat.



No amount of 'posturing' or 'guessing' will change the fact that history is history and that Stoner did not spend those 4 years on a factory Honda but spent them on a Factory Ducati instead.



As such, all guesswork is irrelevant, altho0ugh it does make for interesting speculation.
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Agree. I myself have though what Pov is suggesting. I even called it Stoner's sequestered years on Ducati. But then again, those years actually propelled him into the spot light. Without that (if you read my previous post) we may have never talked about his subsequent success. Ducati may have held him back is what Pov is suggesting in the 'what if' scenario, but at the same time, we must also consider 'what if' he had never ridden a Ducati and stayed on satellite Honda (where he believed, true or paranoia) that he was being sabotaged. We know that is not good for confidence, ala Melandri. Hell, we might be talking about how Casey is great in Wsbk today.
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Unless I've missed it while going through this thread, something that nobody here appears to be aware of is that the pretty statistic boxes that were apparently posted up on Twitter by HRC, were actually copies from a story that ran in one of the recent issues of Australian Motorcycle News magazine. When coupled with the written story, I can assure you that it makes more sense if is somewhat less inflammatory...
 
Agree. I myself have though what Pov is suggesting. I even called it Stoner's sequestered years on Ducati. But then again, those years actually propelled him into the spot light. Without that (if you read my previous post) we may have never talked about his subsequent success. Ducati may have held him back is what Pov is suggesting in the 'what if' scenario, but at the same time, we must also consider 'what if' he had never ridden a Ducati and stayed on satellite Honda (where he believed, true or paranoia) that he was being sabotaged. We know that is not good for confidence, ala Melandri. Hell, we might be talking about how Casey is great in Wsbk today.
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Yep. He might never have got a chance on a competitive bike without ducati and be plying his trade in WSBK having left motogp still known as crashey stoner. Even ducati pretty clearly only signed him as a stop-gap for a year whilst awaiting marco melandri.



This is one thing that concerns me with the recent brouhaha in the media. He has steered fairly close to outright criticism of ducati in lashing out at rossi which is disappointing. As a ducati man myself I even had thoughts about him going back there later in his career to win another title with them, and he certainly was in a position to be a ducati (if not a marlboro) icon in his retirement as their first world champion, regardless of what else he does in his career. As has been discussed valentino similarly seems to be at risk of being alienated from both honda and yamaha when he retires, as opposed to eddie lawson who is still thick with yamaha despite riding for honda and cagiva.
 
Or perhaps people are looking to find the negative about him. If you have over half a second on the field despite one day less testing some might think you can say whatever you like. Doohan was similar, obviously with far more personal gravitas. He is a perfectionist like doohan and may have been pissed off about his previous now wasted testing on a bike which wasn't the right weight.

Saying what you want is fine but to say the rules were changed to hurt you and that the bike is chattering because of the added weight is a lie. The bike had the same problems the first time it was out fitted with BS 2012 hoops in Brno. Go look at his responses from after that test, same exact problem and even Yam and Duc had problems with the 2012 tires when they first tested them. They(honda) haven't been able to fix the problem yet so it's okay for him to insinuate that there is something shaddy going on? Most liars at least cover their tracks unless he completely forgot that he had tested those same tires and had the same problems with them when the bike was set at it's original design weight a long time ago in Brno.
 
Saying what you want is fine but to say the rules were changed to hurt you and that the bike is chattering because of the added weight is a lie. The bike had the same problems the first time it was out fitted with BS 2012 hoops in Brno. Go look at his responses from after that test, same exact problem and even Yam and Duc had problems with the 2012 tires when they first tested them. They(honda) haven't been able to fix the problem yet so it's okay for him to insinuate that there is something shaddy going on? Most liars at least cover their tracks unless he completely forgot that he had tested those same tires and had the same problems with them when the bike was set at it's original design weight a long time ago in Brno.



You don't like the guy, that's fine.



Recognising this is a pointless discussion, and acknowledging this is the sort of petty thing he doesn't really need to go into but frequently does, calling him a liar is stretching things imo. Dorna have put out a press release going into the weight change issue. They did change it at the last minute to honda's surprise, and there does appear to be some subtext, likely that of bringing honda into line with dorna's (reasonable) cost reduction imperative.



According to the press release dorna wished to put the maximum weight up to help the CRT teams, weight reduction being one of the costlier aspects of the sport, but were originally unable to do this because they "thought" the msma had voted unanimously against it, with a unanimous vote having veto power in regard to technical changes. Apparently it subsequently emerged the vote was not unanimous, with one dissenter.
 
These arguments remind me of stoner while on the Ducati. Same patterns of bringing up evidence and quotes. He would say theres something wrong with the bike after losing the front and crashing, and get proven a whinger, maybe even a liar. Not even the evidence of this past year seams enough for some people to get past that what he says can be anything more than a figment of his deluded imagination that everyone's out to get him? Really, that's the only credible response?
 

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